Zionist piracy

[CptBork]

If the past several decades of agitprop and manipulation have not taught you the nature of the Israeli media operations, my guess is you haven't been paying attention.

Yes, the first reaction to anything from official Israeli military sources should be to demand physical evidence independently evaluated by people with direct and unmediated access to all relevant information. There are few less reliable or more consistently dishonest sources, and nothing should be taken on faith from them.

Did you see me anywhere saying Israel has to be taken at its word? I think there are plenty of unanswered questions that need to be thoroughly and transparently addressed, like whether passengers were summarily executed after the IDF gained control of the ship, as just one single example.

This is not the issue I'm getting at. I've seen tons of videos and eyewitness accounts, nothing in it hints at the actions of peaceful protesters. I've seen passengers from the Navi Marmara giving testimony to the news which contradicts what they were seen doing on videos taken directly from the ship.

I know Israel has a propaganda machine, as does every country in the world. Countries spend considerable sums of money putting forward their best-looking case to the world around them, and Israel with all the threats and challenges it faces is no different. What makes Israel's opponents any different? How is the propaganda coming from radical islamist organizations looking to milk this incident any more reliable?

Wouldn't you be pissed off if your son or daughter went off to take on a "bold humanitarian mission", only to find out later that the organizers were planning a serious confrontation and were hoping to make martyrs out of the ship's passengers?

 

[S.A.M.]

Who "proved" it, how was it "proven", and what's your source? It better be something really damn good, otherwise I need to ask how you can throw out any evidence Israel gives but accept anything that comes from their opponents.

As for me, I wait for independent confirmation of anything Israel says, because I need no further proof that they are consummate liars.

But this is the internet age and Israel was forced to concede that they had manipulated the audio when Huwaida's husband Adam Shapiro revealed that she was not on the Maavi Marmara, from which the IDF audio purportedly came. Later the IDF tried to cover up by saying that they had combined audio from all the flotillas except that some activists could not remember having made some of the statements identified as their voices on that occasion. Which meant it was a mix tape. Further some enterprising young people downloaded the audio from Haaretz and did a spectographic analysis which indicated that the statements about Auschwitz and 9/11 lacked the audio background of the rest of purported flotilla audio and seemed to be more of a studio job. None of which is binding, except this is Israel we're talking about. If you read the Gilad Atzmon link I gave in my earlier post, even you can see how amateur their efforts are when compared to the real footage.

You can read the review of the spectrographic analysis here if you are interested. Me, I've spent the last four years uncovering the hasbara industry and only Israelis would be so stupid as to insert such quips about Auschwitz as statements by peace activists. And only pro-Israelis would be dumb enough to think it was said by them.

 

[GeoffP]

Not at all. "Unproven third parties" of the kind involved here have a somewhat better record, in hindsight, of reasonable accuracy in similar events.

Sorry, ice: I have no way to judge this. The link that I've seen didn't support Sam's assertions. :shrug: I think the case rests there.

 

[S.A.M.]

Just posting the conclusions of the review for the zio-challenged:

A) the IDF first releases a false accusation, purposefully edited to give the impression the transmission came from the Mavi Marmara. They claim it came from a ‘passenger’ of the Mavi Marmara. They know the inflammatory alleged statements will spread like wildfire (it is still spreading un-corrected) and these remarkably clear transmits will bolster their claim that the activists on the Mavi Marmara were aggressive. It’s PROPAGANDA.

B) the IDF releases an alleged unedited version of alleged transmits, in order to prove their ‘material’ is genuine, at the same time admitting their ‘claim’ of the origins is inaccurate.

C) the other transmits from activist vessels are cordial, all have interference and in places are almost un-intelligible

D) All the other vessel radio transmits are full of interference. Isn’t it AMAZING, that the derogatory remarks, are SO CLEAR? Clearer than anything else transmitted and with a different transmit noise from all the others. Almost as if they’ve been purposefully recorded and inserted.

E) the IDF has yet to explain how exceptionally clear onboard communications from passengers, got onto a maritime channel. Fact is, THEY CAN’T. An open channel would be totally flooded, rendered inoperable, an impossible mess. The IDF open channel is an open MARITIME channel, for vessel transmissions. Onboard communications are not on a maritime band.

Conclusion. The IDF proof does not ‘prove’ anything other than the now confirmed fact – their alleged material was edited to give the impression it came from the Mavi Marmara.

 

[iceaura]

So far we've seen a fairly impressive array of evidence that the Israeli commandoes were quite restrained

We have not.

Commando assault in the early hours of morning is not restraint. Shooting people is not restraint.

What makes Israel's opponents any different? How is the propaganda coming from radical islamist organizations looking to milk this incident any more reliable?

The propaganda from the radical Islamist organizations is not dominating the news reports, despite its superior record of accuracy when compared with the professional and sophisticated Israeli media feeds, and its better agreement with the physical evidence we do have.

Israel is in control of the physical evidence, and until somebody else gets a look at it I'm saying we don't know what happened. All we have is the net result, which raises the prospect of seriously criminal acitivity by the Israeli forces, including murder. Any informed speculation would be about that.

I've seen tons of videos and eyewitness accounts

You have rejected the eyewitness accounts, in favor of Israeli issued video and Israeli military media claims.

Wouldn't you be pissed off if your son or daughter went off to take on a "bold humanitarian mission", only to find out later that the organizers were planning a serious confrontation and were hoping to make martyrs out of the ship's passengers?

If I found that people could plan to be the victims of this kind of operation by Israeli forces, I would sue Israel.

The people on that ship (anyone, on any ship in such circumstances) were within their (abstract, disinterested description) rights, self defense on the high seas, to kill anyone attempting to board their ship like that, by whatever means they had to hand. Agreed?

Not at all. "Unproven third parties" of the kind involved here have a somewhat better record, in hindsight, of reasonable accuracy in similar events.
”
Sorry, ice: I have no way to judge this.

Amnesia got you? Or just inattention over the past forty years?

 

[GeoffP]

We have not.

Commando assault in the early hours of morning is not restraint. Shooting people is not restraint.

Ice: illustrate their intent to use lethal force before the boarding.

Sam: I don't see how the recordings necessarily indicate what the author is saying. The system is not really clear. Perhaps you could translate.

 

[iceaura]

Ice: illustrate their intent to use lethal force before the boarding.

Rather than attempt mindreading, I will limit my comments to what they did, as we discover what exactly that was.

If they were caught by surprise, brought those guns out of habit, shot all those people by accident, whatever, I'm sure it will come out in the verified account of events.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Any government of any region of Somalia has far better justification for blockading their entire coastal waters against European shipping than Israel has for blockading Gaza against anyone.

Ha!

But you are correct, the UN would be unlikely to "allow" such behavior from anyone except Israel or the US. It would be worth trying anyway, though. The first step would be hiring the kinds of media influences that Israel has learned to deploy over the years.

Media?, the Israeli lobby controls far more then the media, it controls the government its self... from their orbital fortress where the 5 elders of zion bankers control the whole of the world; media, governments the whole thing!

 

[CptBork]

The people on that ship (anyone, on any ship in such circumstances) were within their (abstract, disinterested description) rights, self defense on the high seas, to kill anyone attempting to board their ship like that, by whatever means they had to hand. Agreed?

Huh? You speak as if you were talking about some Platonic self-evident truth. If a criminal is coming to break into your house and you kill them, and you can't establish that your life was actually in danger nor was there specific reason to believe such, you'd be charged with murder or manslaughter. Now consider this case, where a ship is attempting to deliver cargo to a territory ruled by a government that is officially at war with Israel.

If Israel chooses to board their vessel, even if they did indeed have a legitimate right to resist, it would have to be proportionate to the immediate threat. Unless it could be established that someone's life appeared in genuine and immediate danger, killing a commando for landing on the ship would be murder. If the Mavi Marmara had machine guns and started firing on the Israeli patrol, the IDF would have been fully within its rights to sink them on the spot.

 

[GeoffP]

Rather than attempt mindreading, I will limit my comments to what they did, as we discover what exactly that was.

If they were caught by surprise, brought those guns out of habit,

Kind of a strawman, Ice: police officers don't carry guns? Come on, now.

shot all those people by accident, whatever, I'm sure it will come out in the verified account of events.

Possibly so.

 

[GeoffP]

Amnesia got you? Or just inattention over the past forty years?

I was referring to the analysis of the recording, ice.

Stop casting about aspersions of bloody senility, especially as I'm being cordial; this is like the third time you've done this. Christ.

 

[iceaura]

I was referring to the analysis of the recording, ice.

So you were discussing the reliability of Israel's media presentation here without reference to any of their past ones?

If a criminal is coming to break into your house and you kill them, and you can't establish that your life was actually in danger nor was there specific reason to believe such, you'd be charged with murder or manslaughter.

Israel is not vulnerable to such charges or anything analogous. They can murder at will.

Now consider this case, where a ship is attempting to deliver cargo to a territory ruled by a government that is officially at war with Israel.

A war declared - to the extent that it is "official", which is no great extent - by Israel.

And now that "declaration", such as it is, used as the justification of this boarding of ships.

Past crimes justified by further past ones and in turn used to filter the history of them, new ones added in as need arises, this whole setup has a certain elegance - from a safe distance. There are fewer safe distances than there used to be.

 

[ElectricFetus]

So you were discussing the reliability of Israel's media presentation here without reference to any of their past ones?

It pretty hard to says the images of the protesters whacking and stabbing the soldiers are fake, most of all we seem to be getting the dichotomous argument that the protesters where in the right to "defend" themselves and yet that the videos are false and the protesters did no such thing, which is it?

Israel is not vulnerable to such charges or anything analogous. They can murder at will.

Yeah its not like they are receiving international condemnation for the flotilla raid.

 

[iceaura]

It pretty hard to says the images of the protesters whacking and stabbing the soldiers are fake,

It's very easy to imagine they are messed with and deceptivel.

most of all we seem to be getting the dichotomous argument that the protesters where in the right to "defend" themselves and yet that the videos are false and the protesters did no such thing, which is it?

Nothing contradictory there. I imagine the protesters did plenty of whacking and stabbing, and I would bet good money the Israeli released videos are tampered with - as always before.

Yeah its not like they are receiving international condemnation for the flotilla raid.

They are - just not in the Stateside media.

 

[GeoffP]

So you were discussing the reliability of Israel's media presentation here without reference to any of their past ones?

I was referring to the present analysis by the non-Israeli parties. I don't know them. Do you?

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam: I don't see how the recordings necessarily indicate what the author is saying. The system is not really clear. Perhaps you could translate.

Its pretty self evident. The Israeli MFA has the video posted in many sites, you could download the audio and examine the differences yourself, if you doubt the veracity of the report. The Oz guy who did it has been pretty clear about his methods. I find the point about passengers being on the maritime channel pretty striking. If you've ever listened to ship to ship radio, you'd understand how strange it would be for passengers to be speaking clearly on a maritime channel except under conditions of distress - the fact that most of the audio shows cordiality and is largely unintelligible except for the quips about Auschwitz and 9/11 is in itself suspicious. Especially since those quips were not present in the initial "revelations" by the Israelis. Clearly, they needed a couple of days to make their mix CD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

 

[CptBork]

I disagree about the Auschwitz comment, I don't think it was very clear at all. I missed it altogether the first time I watched the relevant clip, then the second time it was like "Yaddup, gobacktoOshavitz!" The 9/11 comment wasn't clear either, it sounded like some dumbass drunk redneck who lost his marbles and decided to join the Turks so he could "git his guvamint back but good".

Now if only the same degree of skepticism were applied to matters such as religion, or 9/11 UFO conspiracy theories with their latest indisputable proofs that towers don't collapse. Ultimately, all of this nitpicking over two comments is pretty irrelevant compared to allegations about what was actually stashed on board the flotilla, i.e. next to nothing Gazans actually needed (unless they were planning to eat the passengers).

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I disagree about the Auschwitz comment, I don't think it was very clear at all. I missed it altogether the first time I watched the relevant clip, then the second time it was like "Yaddup, gobacktoOshavitz!" The 9/11 comment wasn't clear either, it sounded like some dumbass drunk redneck who lost his marbles and decided to join the Turks so he could "git his guvamint back but good".

Now if only the same degree of skepticism were applied to matters such as religion, or 9/11 UFO conspiracy theories with their latest indisputable proofs that towers don't collapse. Ultimately, all of this nitpicking over two comments is pretty irrelevant compared to allegations about what was actually stashed on board the flotilla, i.e. next to nothing Gazans actually needed (unless they were planning to eat the passengers).

Hay Capt. it isn't the red necks who are joining the Turks, Al Qaida, and Islam, to get back at the government, it's the children of liberal privlige who end up doing that.

 

[ElectricFetus]

It's very easy to imagine they are messed with and deceptivel.

No its not, tell me are they CGI? Are all the characters we are seeing not real? We see people with whacking sticks, knives, even slingshots in even the video smuggled out by the protesters so if find hard to believe it all Israeli propaganda... Oh wait that right the elders of zion can control even our minds from there orbital fortress!

Nothing contradictory there. I imagine the protesters did plenty of whacking and stabbing, and I would bet good money the Israeli released videos are tampered with - as always before.

Then that validates the Israeli videos on that point, you may claim the videos are tampered with in every other way, but if you agree the whacking and stabbing happen then you agree on the primary point of the Israelis, the point they need to validate their shooting the protesters dead.

They are - just not in the Stateside media.

I don't read or watch stateside media so I really don't give a fuck.

 

[CptBork]

Hay Capt. it isn't the red necks who are joining the Turks, Al Qaida, and Islam, to get back at the government, it's the children of liberal privlige who end up doing that.

There are liberal rednecks too. I'm just talking about anyone raised in a backwater with bad parentage, loads of drugs and booze, and a grudge against the powers that be. The guy who made the 9/11 comment sounded like one of those, I've encountered them before.