Zionist piracy
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1) Just want to point out that nothing ever works exactly as planned in these kinds of situations. The defenses you would have Israel rely on might not work, or might get innocents killed by other means. In war, always expect the unexpected.
2) There is no way for Israel to assert itself in any fashion without upsetting a large portion of the world. It could do everything 100% by the book and purely in the interest of self-defense, and its opponents will still find a way to make it look ugly. The means of self-defense isn't the biggest issue with Israel's most hardline opponents, it's the very fact that they defend themselves at all. Bet you won't see SAM deny me on this point.
So just trying to say, there aren't any easy or obvious choices in this type of war, every decision Israel makes will carry risk either way. Thank goodness they seem to be waking up on the Gaza issue and hopefully making the blockade strictly about weapons, which is all it should have been about in the first place. Also, my thanks to Lula for trying to bring about a reasonable and balanced solution to the Iranian nuclear problem- I'm sorry Brazil's role wasn't taken more seriously by the West, but I think your Pres. did his best and came up with a compromise that would have been worth serious consideration.
That's a pretty lame excuse for some pretty awful behavior.Cpt said:
If your opponents are going to make you look ugly regardless, why not do what's right?
Perhaps Israel might consider the benefits of having fewer opponents, then - fewer people trying to make it look ugly;
a reduction at least reasonably possible through renunciation of atrocity and injustice, threat and theft, expansion and bullying and lying to everyone all the time.
The thing I think about (perhaps not a lot of people bother to) is that Israel's "need" for security is a direct result of Israel's belligerence, from day one.
I don't think all the neighbours are going to come around anytime soon. and neither are they going to forget Israel's transgressions, assasinations, invasions, and theft. The Jewish colonialists appear to have had the belief that Israel necessarily would need to go to war, and resort to mass relocations of unwanted non-Jews. In short, they wanted to be a fascist state, and just look...
I don't think all the neighbours are going to come around anytime soon. and neither are they going to forget Israel's transgressions, assasinations, invasions, and theft. The Jewish colonialists appear to have had the belief that Israel necessarily would need to go to war, and resort to mass relocations of unwanted non-Jews. In short, they wanted to be a fascist state, and just look...
I never used this as an excuse for anything Israel's done. I'm just saying for Billy T or anyone else who thinks there's a magic solution, no solution no matter how well thought out is going to avoid enormous degrees of antipathy regardless. I believe there are many things Israel can do to make its lives easier and ease the lives of the Palestinians, and some of these are very easy and straight forward to implement.
What I'm asking is that the issues of immediate concern and impact be focussed on, and that we not be so careless as to play into extremist agendas that go beyond merely protecting the innocent and the weak. Note the selectiveness of the causes that are complained about in the world- you can easily find a major Syrian transgression against Lebanon for every transgression Israel's ever caused, and Syria has far outdone Israel in deaths and disappearances, but if Israel is the only one to be targetted and remembered, does it not then serve some rather unsavoury interests?
Yes, regardless of how stacked the deck is one way or the other, it doesn't help Israel to play into the hands of those who make the worst accusations of it. It would have looked a lot better for Israel to have loosened the blockade on their own terms at least a year ago out of humanitarian concerns, than to end up doing it now anyhow after this whole circus has been through town.
BTW any updates on the aid that was sent? Sounds like for the most part it was all crap aside from a few medical scooters, and they just tossed it all in the cargo holds without bothering to pack it properly for the trip. Plus the Mavi Marmara apparently contained nothing but passengers with their personal possessions. Sounds like quite the relief op.
You mean their belligerence for breathing air?
They are getting there certainly, but not quite there yet.
My suggestion is NOT magic - It is technology that can defeat the GAZA rockets, which has been tested for three decades in the defense of all NATO nations ships. Currently it is also being used to make the "Green Zone" in Iraq secure from falling mortar shells. - Proven defense against much more difficult to stop threats.
My suggestion also includes fences, mine fields backed up by a strip of "killer trained" dogs in case some very lucky terrorist gets over the fences, and thru the mine field. Note also tunneling under the fences and mine field would be detected by the deeply driven acoustic sensor spikes.
Then there is the deterrent aspect: With continuous integrated radar/ computer monitoring of all airspace - sort of like the 30 (or 40?) year old DEW line that stretched across Canada* the launch site of a Gaza rocket is known in less than 10 seconds (About when the CIWS is destroying the rocket high in the air) and in less than a minute artillery shells are shredding any living thing at that site. It surely would be something of a deterrent to see 100 % of your rockets explode high in the air (useless to have been fired from the terrorist POV) and then get the launch site quickly pulverized.
This immediate counter battery fire possibly will kill some innocent civilians picking oranges or olives in the first weeks of the NEW artillery policy but later will make most hostile towards the terrorist setting up launchers near them. - Currently Israel's policy is to randomly shell, as a deterrent possible launch sites with about 100 shells each day. (One went too far and killed a family making a picnic on the beach a few years ago and in the press conference telling the silly cover story that it was a mine planted by Hamas, the spokes person described this "defensive" routine, random-shelling policy. He showed a map giving the sites hit near that beach of 5 of the 6 shells fired that day in that area and within an hour of their deaths .)
My plan calls for this random shelling to totally stop - only shell launch sites ASAP. Soon the civilian population will learn that ONLY Gaza's launch sites are shelled and only immediately after rockets are launched. Few will welcome terrorists setting up launchers near them - Lets destroy the civilian support for the terrorist, not build it with random shelling using ~100 shells per day.
The unguided Gaza rockets have limited range and must be fired from the cover of orange or olive groves near the boarder strip Israel has bulldozed clear of everything (just open ground now) if they are to have any chance of reaching Sderot, etc. (Terrorists have fired 400+ since the Dec 2008 invasion which killed >3000 Palestinians and 13 Israel soldiers but only one has killed anyone - a foreign worker in a field less distant than Sderot from the launch site.)
SUMMARY: I am not claiming magic. Only that Israeli deaths from terrorist in Gaza, by all means (not just their crude generally ineffective rockets), can be greatly reduced with even 30 year old, well proven technology; but doing so would also remove the current justification for Israel's chosen High Kill Ratio policy.
These two camps of mutual hatred need to live totally separated and securely for about two generations, IMHO, before progress towards a real peace will be possible (Most of the haters must die in their beds first.)
The Future (> a decade) threat is essentially unstoppable: Black** balloons filed with contagious anthrax or Ebola spores drifting into Israel on moonless nights. If Israel continues the High Kill Ratio policy, instead of defense and a "live let live" policy, there will be plenty of volunteers willing to die launching them. - Why, not? - Israel allows them nothing to live for now, except getting revenge. Israel needs to switch away from their current policy and change that before it is too late, for Israel. Thus, what I suggest is also the long term defense Israel needs to survive, not magic.
* This computer/radar air space control is also used with anti-missile rockets, which are more capable than CIWS's bullets, to protect against longer range, guided missiles that may be launched from Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt also. The Gaza rocket are cheap (<$10) so can not shoot them down with these anti-missiles, which cost more than $50,000 each. I however do not discuss the defense against these more serious threats.
**Black to be less detectable and also to expand at sunrise by solar heating, which then with their then higher altitude bursts them - spores covering perhaps 10 to 100 square miles, depending upon the wind. Those launched from small boats up wind of Tel Aviv and Haifa probably need slow burning string fuses which reaches a small "firecracker" to burst the balloon.
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no people mean their belligerence for wanting other peoples property and taking it by force. something you do not care to stop nor recitfy
Thats the bottom line. If you are the neighborhood bully chances are you're not going to be very popular.
Arab News has a very good article on why Israel's belligerence is casting a shadow over its future. Its based, strangely enough, on a purported CIA report which no one can verify
He was talking about the start of Israel, in which Jews were living there, legally own a significant portion of land where attacked to be "run into the sea" and yet won and took spoils of war. As for present I'm all for Israel stopping the settlements or better yet just granting all the west bank as full citizens of Israel, or maybe give the west bank in full to Jordon, or what ever to end this debacle.
The "CIA Report" mentioned in Sam's linke doesn't sound very inelligent, but it does sound like it could be a zionist propaganda/misinformation product.
Under a One State solution, it is presumed that the Israeli government would remain in control during a controlled transition and transformation to a new Israel that would enjoy a secular democracy respectful of human rights and multi-ethnic coexistence. A lot of Jews who don't want to live as integrated residents of the Levant would likely leave under such conditions, but all Jews would not make an exodus from an Israel joining the community of multiethnic nations. One state is not the removal of all Jews, to be replaced by all displaced Palestinians. That's not happening, and those who conflate One State with that are interested in the status quo. Many in the Palestinian diaspora have been fortunate and resourceful enough to have found fulfilling permanently residency elsewhere, and it isn't reasonable to expect all Palestinians to flood back as Israel abandons apartheid.
The One-State solution is by no means a recipe for reversing Zionist ethnic cleansing, or continuing a cycle of pogroms and zionist reactionism. One State is the notion that Levantine Arabs can live together whatever their religions and heritage, and that a new Arab Israel can become a lawful and viable state that upholds and promotes human rights, and thrives as a nation at peace with all its citizens and neighbors.
Under a One State solution, it is presumed that the Israeli government would remain in control during a controlled transition and transformation to a new Israel that would enjoy a secular democracy respectful of human rights and multi-ethnic coexistence. A lot of Jews who don't want to live as integrated residents of the Levant would likely leave under such conditions, but all Jews would not make an exodus from an Israel joining the community of multiethnic nations. One state is not the removal of all Jews, to be replaced by all displaced Palestinians. That's not happening, and those who conflate One State with that are interested in the status quo. Many in the Palestinian diaspora have been fortunate and resourceful enough to have found fulfilling permanently residency elsewhere, and it isn't reasonable to expect all Palestinians to flood back as Israel abandons apartheid.
The One-State solution is by no means a recipe for reversing Zionist ethnic cleansing, or continuing a cycle of pogroms and zionist reactionism. One State is the notion that Levantine Arabs can live together whatever their religions and heritage, and that a new Arab Israel can become a lawful and viable state that upholds and promotes human rights, and thrives as a nation at peace with all its citizens and neighbors.
except even a casual glance at the facts shows that's not what happened. First off they didn't own a significant portion. they owned I think around 10% Secondly they were not attacked. they did the attacking. thirdly their was no effort to drive into the sea there was an effort however to remove the palestinians so jews could be settled on that land. fourthy they one and yes it spoils of war but no except for people like you think ISrael should keep lands taken in its war of conquest.
So you claim but the policies you demand just end up with palestine having no palestinian. Not to mention your bigoted veiw that that jews should get their property back from the nazis but the palestinians shouldn't get their property back from Israel.
Would that be "Jewish citizenship" or "Arab citizenship" or "Bedouin citizenship" - They have very different rights or none in the Bedouin case (and almost all Bedouin are less than 60 years old so are citizens of Israel by birth).
Please explain what you mean by "full citizens of Israel." (Or is that just meaningless sound good words?)
Do you intend to let the Bedouins out of their concentration camp cities (on <1% of the Negev) so they can go back to the Sinai & all of the Negev where they lived for 5000 years before there was an Israel? What about the Jews now living where they lived?
Perhaps you mean that all non-Jews now living in the west bank should get "Bedouin citizenship" - I.e. be rounded up and confined to concentration camp cities on <1% of the west bank?
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I think it was more like 8-10%, but I never stated a percentage. Most of the Palestinians did not even have legal ownership and were squatters for generations. In fact at best the arabs only own 45% of the land, and much lower by other means of counting.
Even Wiki account of Israel history says otherwise.
Most other countries have done that, keep taken land. Why can't the israelis? If the Arabs can kick out almost all their Jews and take their land and money and never pay for it after losing the 1948 war, why could not the Israelis kick out the Arabs?, shit the Israelis still have not kicked out the Palestinians out of some moral high ground above the Arabs. This would have all been over decades ago if the Israelis had done that in a tic-for-tac on the Arabs.
They would get Gaza as a state of its own, the west bank is simply a much more complicate issue, but with Palestinians breeding rates if the west bank became Israel, then Israel would likely become Palestine within a few generations.
When have I argued Jews should get what property from the Nazis??
Full citizenship as in all are equal, no divided citizenship, Bedouin traditional lifestyle is dead there, they should be allow (made) to live like anyone else as in purchase homes, get jobs, send there kids to school, etc.
That almost how they are already being treated.
Huh?
No citizenship rights for Bedouins?
Oh for crying out loud - sorry, EF. I meant PJ, clearly. Just a bit tired today. Sorry about that.
PJ quit throwing around personal insults. Again.
There we are. The world seems normal again.
BillyT said:
Go piss up a rope.
Unimpressed.
Your posts would stand to be a lot more productive if you occasionally ventured outside of the cage to make them.
But, then, who am I kidding? Productivity? Threads like this are simply pretexts for the usual suspects to see who can strike the most reflexively anti-Israel pose, and dogpile anyone fool enough to exhibit any hint of unorthodoxy on that matter.
And of the myriad criticisms I could make of that, I'd say that the most salient one is that this shit is boring. In which case:
Why doesn't somebody just round up the dirty Jews and gas them already? How much longer are civilized nations going to put up with these parasites and their Nazi tactics?
You don't sound very intelligent, but you do sound like you could be a Zionist propaganda/mininformation product. To wit: that devious Mossad appears to have planted you as a false-flag critic, both to discredit righteous opponents of the Nazi Apartheid state and, one can be sure, supply information back to the Zionist Entity for them to be targetting for assassination. I don't know how you sleep at night, making your living as you do by systematically murdering innocent Palestinian children in the name of racist imperialism.
Yet another way in which the Jews are indistinguishable from Hitler.
Arab News is a corrupt tool of Western Imperialism (obviously, this story is conclusive evidence that they are a wing of the CIA: why else would they have access to such sources?). They only publicize such stories to placate the anger of the righteous Arab masses at the Zionist Oppressor.
Why not a Jewish United States instead? Lets be generous with what you possess, for a change. Its easy to give away what belongs to other people. Declare the US as a Jewish state, let the moronic settlers run amock there.
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