Zionist piracy

[Zakariya04]

ok wait there fedr
ii see yr other post

 

[Bells]

Petty insults aside, you'd have been as responsible as everyone else.

Yes, I would have defended myself.

And I would have used anything on hand to do so.

Fallacy of popular opinion.

So, in your opinion, the world is wrong to condemn Israel?

Miscomprehension or duplicitiousness. We've discussed your trolling on this issue.

From you, that is funny. You can stop the lying Geoff.

False.

Of course dear.

Your "possible" knife has already been shown at work stabbing an Israeli commando, which suggests intellectual dishonesty. And you also conveniently dismiss their choice of arms while forgetting that the use of heavier weapons would have ruined their media field day.

Again, it was an aid ship, carrying aid and peace activists, as well as foreign observers and journalists. Israel took it upon itself to attack those ships illegally. Now, even from Israel's footage, it is plainly obvious that those people grabbed what they coud to defend themselves against the armed men storming their ships.

Illustrate the women in the fight, for interest's sake. Or retract the blithe propaganda.

Oh, this from Mr "humorous hyperbole"? Funny.

Watch the video Geoff, there were men and women on those boats, some even had their children along.

Straw man; and kind of a dumb one, at that.

And you are grasping at straws in your attempts to defend their actions.

Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least 10 people.

German pro-Palestinian activist Norman Paech said he had only seen wooden sticks being brandished as troops abseiled on to the deck of the ship.

Israel says its soldiers were attacked with "knives, clubs and other weapons" and opened fire in self defence.

The raid led to widespread condemnation and the UN has called for an inquiry.

---------------------------------------

"This was not an act of self-defence," said Mr Paech, a politician, as he arrived back in Berlin wrapped in a blue blanket.

"Personally I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives.

"This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission... This was a clear act of piracy," he added.

Fellow German activist Inge Hoeger said they had been on the ships "for peaceful purposes".

"We wanted to transport aid to Gaza," she said. "No-one had a weapon."

She added: "We were aware that this would not be a simple cruise across the sea to deliver the goods to Gaza. But we did not count on this kind of brutality."

Activist Bayram Kalyon, arriving back in Istanbul, had been a passenger on the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara where most, if not all, of the deaths occurred.

"The captain... told us 'They are firing randomly, they are breaking the windows and entering inside. So you should get out of here as soon as possible'. That was our last conversation with him."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

Yep, real premeditation there..

Maybe, councillor, you could explain what's on that footage. Clearly you must know.

The footage released by the Israeli Government? What I see on that footage are people defending themselves from armed men storming their ships. A very clear case of self defense.

We do know and it has been widely reported and confirmed that the people detained are being held without being allowed to speak to anyone. We know, and it has been reported, that they have confiscated the equipment and footage of journalists on those ships. We also know that the only information and videos we have been allowed to see has been released by the Israeli Government.

So what does that tell you Geoff?

Apparently not.

It would seem you are having issues with it. Israel stormed those ships with live rounds in their guns. They were then resisted by people who had armed themselves with what they could obviously scrounge on the ship. Premeditation would have been evident if they had better weapons in their hands aside from a sling shot with some marbles and a couple of iron pipes (according to the IDF, who at this point in time cannot really be trusted) and some knives and deck chairs. Now, I'm sorry, but I have those things in and around my house. You are telling me that if someone tries to break into my house and I run to the kitchen to grab a knife to defend myself, I am doing something wrong?

Those two concepts don't link. What part of that reality do you not quite grasp? You make these arguments without any semblance of congruity.

Obviously you reality and that of what the rest of us see is not the same. Now, is it you? Or is it everyone else who is wrong?

That may well be the silliest comment yet on this thread. Of course not.

I don't think so.

 

[S.A.M.]

You can be certain that Israel will burn videos taken on the boat they have now confiscated. Israel fears the truth getting out.

Does anyone have list of Israel's main consumer exports or other suggestions as to whom to make secondary boycotts against?

The only suggestion I can make is check the labels of consumer goods, its easy to find alternatives for most products made by Israel.

Also the bar code for Israeli products is 729.

I started looking at labels and barcodes 3 years ago, they encompass everything from oranges to melons, to underwear to socks and from CDs to chocolates*


*Chocolates

Max Brenner is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Strauss Group, Israel’s second-largest food conglomerate, and boasts on its web page of its support and “adoption” of the Golani and Givaati Brigades of the Israeli army. Both the Golani and the Givaati Brigades have historically been associated with numerous violations of human rights.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/global-flotilla-hits-ny-chocolate-shop.html

 

[Zakariya04]

So fedr

Gaza anbd the west bank are obviously not gifts as them palestinains do not ahve control and still live under occupation from isreal

And to think and say somethign which was stolen and then be-grudgingly and nopt really given back to the rightfull owners is a gift is beyond me...
but anyway....

can you not see any other view on this at all...?

 

[Bells]

An interesting article..

Israeli convoy raid: What went wrong?

The soldiers, who had started to use stun grenades, then asked for permission to use their firearms. They were given the go-ahead.

However, this is not seen on the video. Indeed, it stops just as one soldier can be seen levelling his pistol at the protesters. One wonders what happened next. Why did the video stop there?

The Israelis claim that the activists got hold of two pistols and must have fired them as their magazines were found to be empty when recovered. Ben Yishai also quotes one commando as saying that the Israeli forces fired at someone holding a rifle, but no such rifle has been produced.

He says that two soldiers were wounded after "rioters apparently fired at them".

Unclear events

What is not clear at this stage is why so many died and in what circumstances. Did they all die on deck? In a group or one by one?


We do not see any of this on the video and one must ask whether any such video exists and if it does, then why it has not been produced. The reporter says the troops fired at "the rioters' legs". That may have been so, but it must have gone beyond that as well.

And of course, we have not yet heard any eyewitnesses from among the activists, especially the wounded. They are being held incommunicado by the Israelis.

Update: Israeli Arab member of the Knesset Hanin Zoabi, who was on the ship, has now spoken in Nazareth. She said it was clear that the Israelis "intended to cause the largest possible number of casualties... We had no plans for a confrontation." She claimed that the Israelis started firing first and demanded thatall video be released.

Ron Ben Yishai says the Israeli forces made two mistakes. They underestimated the extent of the opposition and they failed to quell it from above, by using tear-gas and stun grenades before they landed.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10203333.stm

And corroboration of what other activists have stated:

Survivors of the Israeli assault on a flotilla carrying relief supplies to Gaza returned to Greece and Turkey today, giving the first eyewitness accounts of the raid in which at least 10 people died.

Arriving at Istanbul's Ataturk airport with her one-year-old baby, Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin said Israeli troops opened fire before boarding the Turkish-flagged ferry Mavi Marmara, which was the scene of the worst clashes and all the fatalities. Israeli officials have said that the use of armed force began when its boarding party was attacked.

"It was extremely bad and very tough clashes took place. The Mavi Marmara is filled with blood," said Cetin, whose husband is the Mavi Marmara's chief engineer.

She told reporters that she and her child hid in the bathroom of their cabin during the confrontation. "The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack," she said.

"There were sound and smoke bombs and later they used gas bombs. Following the bombings they started to come on board from helicopters."

Cetin is among a handful of Turkish activists to be released; more than 300 remain in Israeli custody. She said she agreed to extradition from Israel after she was warned that conditions in jail would be too harsh for her child.

"I am one of the first passengers to be sent home, just because I have baby. When we arrived at the Israeli port of Ashdod we were met by the Israeli interior and foreign ministry officials and police; there were no soldiers. They asked me only a few questions. But they took everything – cameras, laptops, cellphones, personal belongings including our clothes," she said.

--------------------------------------------------

Six Greek activists who returned to Athens accused Israeli commandos of using electric shocks during the raid.

Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, told reporters: "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat. They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."

Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones, laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our papers."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

Be interested to hear what the 600 or so people who are still detained are going to say when they are released.

 

[nirakar]

Money will not stop Israel, What a joke. Nobody is going to boycott Israel in the west because nobody in the west has the balls to do it.

I have heard reasons to dislike Teva that have nothing to do with Israel. Boycotting Intel will be no fun. Trying to boycott coltan from Congo is harder to do than boycotting Intel.

I probably would just treat Israel as just another rogue nation and ignore them if it was not for the tax money spent on them and their bad influence on US foreign policy and most of all the in my face cowardice of the American media that I have too watch lying for Israel. Privileged jerk that I am it is really my hatred of dishonesty and not my sympathy for the suffering of victims that has me ready to boycott Israel.

I am sick of pro Israel disinformation. What BS it is hearing Anerican media blaming the killings on the people on the boats using low tech weapons. What BS it is playing clips of Israel saying that the flotilla was illegal when it is actually the Israeli blockade that is illegal. And the Israel backers have my nation bribing Egypt to participate in this illegal criminal blockade collective punishment state terrorism to punish Gazans for voting for who they want to vote for. My boycott begins today. I don't know what I will do when I really want something with Israeli components. I am boycotting Intel and letting Intel know I am boycotting them goes on my to do list.

If the useless UN won't or can't do it's job then the good people of the world will have to do the job themselves which is exactly what the people were doing on that flotilla. The Egyptian government opened it's border to Gaza today because Egyptian government was scared that it's own people are in no mood to tolerate the Egyptian government's blockade of Gaza. The flotilla people accomplished that. It cost the flotilla people a lot of lives but they got the Egyptian blockade lifted for a day.

Money might stop Israel. I don't think war or terrorism will stop Israel. Israel deserves to be boycotted. If you don't live in the USA then boycott the USA as well. My nation the USA also deserves to be boycotted.

 

[Norsefire]

The Israelis involved in the raid should all be tried and promptly hung for their crimes against humanity.

 

[Zakariya04]

If the useless UN won't or can't do it's job then the good people of the world will have to do the job themselves which is exactly what the people were doing on that flotilla. The Egyptian government opened it's border to Gaza today because Egyptian government was scared that it's own people are in no mood to tolerate the Egyptian government's blockade of Gaza. The flotilla people accomplished that. It cost the flotilla people a lot of lives but they got the Egyptian blockade lifted for a day.

Money might stop Israel. I don't think war or terrorism will stop Israel. Israel deserves to be boycotted. If you don't live in the USA then boycott the USA as well. My nation the USA also deserves to be boycotted.

but nirak, the bad thing is that the imbercile mubarak the pussy if he handt cooperate with sireal in the first place there would be no effective blockade of Gaza

 

[GeoffP]

You must be proud. What species do you belong?

Interesting. That "species" thing is catching on.

Yes, I would have defended myself.

And I would have used anything on hand to do so.

Then you likely would have been a rabid Jew-hater.

So, in your opinion, the world is wrong to condemn Israel?

Don't be stupid. Of course not. But there's more than enough blame to go around to the protestors also - I note that the shiekh on board is kind of a Jew-hater himself.

From you, that is funny. You can stop the lying Geoff.

Misdirection.

Again, it was an aid ship, carrying aid and peace activists, as well as foreign observers and journalists. Israel took it upon itself to attack those ships illegally. Now, even from Israel's footage, it is plainly obvious that those people grabbed what they coud to defend themselves against the armed men storming their ships.

It is plainly obvious that they intended to do so from the day before, when they had their little white hood rally. It is also plainly obvious that it was a set-up.

Oh, this from Mr "humorous hyperbole"? Funny.

Watch the video Geoff, there were men and women on those boats, some even had their children along.

You said the women joined in the attack. You are retracting this now? You can stop the lying, Bells.

Yep, real premeditation there..

Yes, there is. That you don't understand what that is doesn't make it false.

The footage released by the Israeli Government? What I see on that footage are people defending themselves from armed men storming their ships. A very clear case of self defense.

Rather, of premeditated attack.

We do know and it has been widely reported and confirmed that the people detained are being held without being allowed to speak to anyone. We know, and it has been reported, that they have confiscated the equipment and footage of journalists on those ships. We also know that the only information and videos we have been allowed to see has been released by the Israeli Government.

So what does that tell you Geoff?

That your argument is based off supposition far more tenuous than any I could offer.

It would seem you are having issues with it. Israel stormed those ships with live rounds in their guns.

And? Whom did they shoot as they rappelled down? Could you point this out to me?

Premeditation would have been evident if they had better weapons in their hands aside from a sling shot with some marbles and a couple of iron pipes

That is the very height of duplicity. Iron pipes (or "iron sticks" in your lexicon) are not weapons, and a mob is not a mob.

Obviously you reality and that of what the rest of us see is not the same. Now, is it you? Or is it everyone else who is wrong?

I see you are not familiar with the fallacy of popular opinion after all. And: "everyone"? Really, now.

 

[nirakar]

but nirak, the bad thing is that the imbercile mubarak the pussy if he handt cooperate with sireal in the first place there would be no effective blockade of Gaza

Could Mubarak stay in power without the money he gets from the USA? US aid to Egypt: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=23282

The Egyptians should topple Mubarak but then the Egyptian military will no longer get all those fun military toys.

Egypt is poor and their economic prospects are bleak. I feel bad for the Egyptians but boycott Egypt as well. They need to topple Mubarak.

 

[GeoffP]

An interesting article..

I agree with Bells: this is useful.

She told reporters that she and her child hid in the bathroom of their cabin during the confrontation. "The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack," she said.

The question is whether it turned into strafing or the like.

"There were sound and smoke bombs and later they used gas bombs. Following the bombings they started to come on board from helicopters."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

Smoke and stunners, and tear gas. These accounts do not describe lethal gunfire.

 

[Billy T]

Chances are if you want to boycott Israel than you might as well throw away your computer right now.

No. I am a "reformed sinner" - looking to the future - cannot undo the past. Will not knowingly buy Israeli made items in the future, unless badly needed and no alternative exist. When I buy a computer, I only know where it (and it battery which I can remove) were made, not that about every component in it. Why the pledge to not buy Israeli made items has the word "knowingly" in it.

An Israeli also invented the first flash drive, so I guess you should boycott those as well. Israeli also has the largest number of Nasdaq companies outside of north America. So there goes a lot of things you can no longer buy.

Again no and certainly I have nothing against individual Israeli inventors - I hope they continue to be productive.

In general I admire the Jewish high level of education etc. It is the policy of their government which I hate (as do many Israeli Jews, the majority of which do not practice the Jewish religion and wish for a more democratic and more secular government - less controlled by the hard line orthodox).

Copaxone was also invented and made in Israel... TEVA Pharmaceutical industries is also the largest generic drug manufacturer in the world, so we can cross off generic medication.

Yes, Copaxone is great aid for MS and rapidly growing in sales. Yes I like future prospects of generic drug companies. In fact own 362 shares of Teva (bought long ago - 62 were from when TEVA took over my 100 sh of Barr.) I still own three others generics and not a share of pure "big pharma" (I do own shares of Novartis as it owns Sandoz, world’s No.2 generic and I own German MERCK KGAA also big in generics, and Danish Novo Nordisk which is world's #1 in insulin, but not really a pure big pharma, and a few others, but you get the idea.)

Sunday I did put sell order in for my TEVA shares, but at Friday close price. TEVA's share price has only dropped all day so the sell order did not execute. I think I will keep them, just as I will keep my computer.

You are correct that when one really needs an Israeli product they should buy it. So Copaxon will probably continue to gain market share, but for most, Genentech and Biogen Idec MS drug may better, but there have been a few rare serious side effects. Even two shots of the cancer drug Rituxan given two weeks apart slowed the progression of MS for nearly a year! Several other MS drugs have other advantages but just now, in this horse race, TEVA's Copaxon seems to be pulling ahead. A year from now that could all change. If I ever get MS, I will investigate in much more detail than just as an investor.

Good luck with your boycott, you will need it.

Thanks even if that is sarcastic; but I will use effort, as that is more reliable than luck. I have some experience in these efforts to terminate violation of human rights, but you are probably right. Most only get concerned when their ox is gored. Jews, who lived under Hitler certainly know that. Look how no one but me (it seems) is concerned by Israel's mearly complete extermination of the Bedouins. The few remaining are now confined by Israel in one of three concentration camp cities in the Negev Desert now. Their crime was occupying land needed for Jewish settlers.

Later by edit. Here is what TEVA stock did today. At peak it just touched the black line of prior close. There was some recover (green part) at start of after hours trading but then back down to lower level still (sorry graph will not post):

 

[ejderha]

Interesting. That "species" thing is catching on.

I assume you think this comes from something you wrote before? The phrase is same in many languages. It's a simple and honest reaction to his statement. It's not related to anything previous.

 

[GeoffP]

One is forced to wonder: could the lynch mob plan have the added objective or alternative objective to derail peace planning in the Middle East?

 

[GeoffP]

I assume you think this comes from something you wrote before? The phrase is same in many languages. It's a simple and honest reaction to his statement. It's not related to anything previous.

Really? In which languages and under what sense?

 

[ejderha]

Really? In which languages and under what sense?

Sure. When you think the other is behaving out of humanity we say: "Nesin sen, insan mı?" "What are you? Human?" or "Türüne göre davran, hayvanla hayvan olma" "Behave according to your species, don't be an animal with the animal"...etc. And it's one of them.

And what could you possibly mean taking a simple straight reaction?

Did it disturb you that I think a fascist does not qualify as human? If so, how unfortunate, because they don't.

 

[pjdude1219]

Ah, but what are they reacting to though?


That's my point. Israel will react to what they are hearing in the media.. So how unbiased do you think Israel is going to be in giving its account for the events, when you take the above into consideration?

If Sam is able to find articles about how day to day Israelis are reacting to this, then I would be very interested to read it. But some opinion pieces from Israel isn't being overly flattering to Israel's actions.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-failure-any-way-you-slice-it-1.293446

have you ever noticed how Israel treats information the way a lot of dictatorships do?

 

[pjdude1219]

Not at all. If I were on that boat, I'd have been scrounging for anything I could get my hands on to protect myself. Or does that little fact escape you?

he can't understand how them coming in as a combat mission rather than police mission affects the response.

If they came without armor and lightly armed nothing would have happened but the fact they came in wearing heavy body armor and armed to the teeth affects the response. one while threatening is rather peaceful but coming in the way they did you looking for and expecting a gun fight. your not going to let such a threat come in and have first blow(though I do believe the reports of the Israelis firing on the ships before the raid) when they so heavily out gun you.

 

[pjdude1219]

That would be idiotic. The ships were merely boarded, no fighting occurred until some morons decided they would fight off the Israeli military with pipes and chains.

No its called human nature. the fight or flight response. also how one arms themselves says a lot about their intentions and how the Israelis were armed says they wanted a fight.

 

[pjdude1219]

explain to me how it is not a gift...

Gifts don't have strings attached. bribes do