Your time upon this earth is ending...
- Thread starter Lawdog
- Start date
I am sitting here now just wondering if you have the ability to discuss, or indeed provide something beyond 5 words that doesn't amount to much and is irrelevant to what was actually said.
The minute you say "this", you are talking about 'this' pack of crisps, or 'this' group of people, or 'this' discussion - not something else.
By his statements, it is simply undeniable that he was telling the people of his day, (the people he was talking to at that moment), that some of them would still be alive when all these things had taken place. You can see the serious urgency by them being told not to store anything - which was not in any way as a piece of advice to people yet to be born some 2000+ years later, but to the very people he was speaking to - whether they were christian or flying spaghetti monsterism.
I still give you the opportunity to provide a case, but kindly try harder than just to give me 5 irrelevant words.
Quantum Quack said:
Is that so? And how is it that you know what he meant specifically? You make it sound as if you were there. He most likely was referring to a generation of our species...like a generation of technology. After all, that makes a lot more sense doesn't it?
Lori_7 said:
I haven't the slightest idea...really...
I said what I said as an example of how we use selective reasoning when discussing the bible.
How in one moment it can be taken to be literal and in another it is taken metaphorically.
It seems that it is up to the reader to decide which is what, literal or cryptic.
This renders the ability to discuss the bible seriously very difficult.
Jesus may very well have been meaning his generation. In fact there is no reason to think other wise other than crypticising his words.
Maybe just for fun it woudl be good exercise to take a reliable bible and discect all the contentions showing which should be literlly interpreted and which should not be.
I can guarantee you that if the contention is accepted literally and it threatens the belief it will immediately be rendered as cryptic so as to support that belief.
For example:
Garden of eden, Adam and Eve = literal or cryptic?
The great flood - Noahs Ark = literal or cryptic?
Moses getting the ten commandments = literal or cryptic?
Jesus on the cross = literal or cryptic?
So when jesus said "this generation" was he being cryptic or should we assume he was being literal?
What reasoning supports the view that it should have implied meaning other than literal?
Maybe Lora you can ask your buddie why he has placed all of us in this vexatious position of cryptic vs literal?
as an aside:
A good question I have often wondered about is that:
The dude that jesus brought back to life and rescued from his tomb. How long did this guy go on living for ? Why is his life after resurrection not documented. What did he eventually die of...old age?
Why are the miracles of Jesus only reported by the disciples and not someother witness...there must have been many.
Why did they wait so long to put his life down on paper?
The list of questions is endless and all answers supplied by the believer are based on subjective interpretations rather than hard evidence or even sound logic.
Maybe someone should re-write the book in a way that it can be taken literally by all who read it. My guess is it would be a very different book....very.
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Personally with reference to the thead title I believe there is a need for God but not a need for religion. However I ask you ....am I being literal or cryptic?
Hello all 
Matthew 24
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Now this is a classic case of people reading what they want to read into a portion of scripture. Jesus never said Your generation will by no means pass away. He said This generation will by no means pass away.
This generation?? this generation is refering to the generation that see's all the signs Jesus gave of His return from Matthew 24: 3 - 24
Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
So "this generation" is refering to the generation that see's all these signs. Of cource if one believes and has faith in Jesus then this passage is of no real concern because The Holy Spirit guides us into understanding
Yes many. But if you know history you will know that the Jewish nation within a generation after The Messiah where destroyed and the survivors where sent into exile. Also Christianity was violently suppressed for centuries after the time of Jesus. think about it. How many inca or aztec texts survived the conquistadors?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Matthew 24
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Now this is a classic case of people reading what they want to read into a portion of scripture. Jesus never said Your generation will by no means pass away. He said This generation will by no means pass away.
This generation?? this generation is refering to the generation that see's all the signs Jesus gave of His return from Matthew 24: 3 - 24
Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
So "this generation" is refering to the generation that see's all these signs. Of cource if one believes and has faith in Jesus then this passage is of no real concern because The Holy Spirit guides us into understanding
Yes many. But if you know history you will know that the Jewish nation within a generation after The Messiah where destroyed and the survivors where sent into exile. Also Christianity was violently suppressed for centuries after the time of Jesus. think about it. How many inca or aztec texts survived the conquistadors?
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Acutally, no. As written in Greek it referrs to those present when he was speaking.Adstar said:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1125380341-162.html
~Raithere
Quantum Quack said:
I think you're missing the point a bit...may need a perspective tweak...
The Bible is not just a book. The Bible is a spiritual tool that was written by the Holy Spirit through men, and is to be interpreted to men by that same Spirit. It's meant to be personal. That's not to say that you can't share what you learn but, you don't learn by "studying" it, or getting some degree in theology. And not everyone is going to learn the same things...which is not to say that it is contradictory or inconsistent...just that it's interpreted to many in bits and pieces and according to "need" or purpose, I suppose. It seems to me, from personal experience that the Bible is both literal and figurative and more, depending upon who is reading it and when and why and what God wants to show/teach them. So my advice is, of course and as always, don't look to a "believer" to interpret/explain for you. Your best bet is to take it up with God Himself. He'll show you what you sincerely desire to know...
Lori_7 said:
Look Lori, I almost totally agree with you. If I want poetic inspiration the bible is actuallly a good source. It is when we are expected to dabble in the literal interpretations that I have a significant problem with it.
It may very well be true that the bible has an element of objective truth to it. It may very well be true that Jesus lived and died in a similar manner to that as described. It is when we step beyond the figurative that the message of the bible is actually lost.
I see the bible as a cryptic historic record of mans battle with fear and superstition.
I see the bible as a story of a moral evolution.
I see the bible as a source of incredible wisdom and a show case of enormous folly.
But what I fail to see is why we should ever take any of it as literal. To do so buries the searcher in obscure crypticism and treasure hunt mentalities.
Step out of the book, get into your soul [ heart] and the book has served it's prupose.
Stay in the book and you have a constant paradox of reasoning that you can not escape from.
I ask does it really matter whether the bible is a literal document or not?
Only if you try to make it literal.
Does it really matter what the bible says?
What matters is how it makes you feel and how those feelings change your life.
So Lori, you can see I do agree with you in the main....
And not everyone is going to learn the same things...which is not to say that it is contradictory or inconsistent...just that it's interpreted to many in bits and pieces and according to "need" or purpose, I suppose.
Aside from the fact that the bible has been shown to be contradictory and inconsistent, it is interpreted such that theists are vehemently opposed to one anothers interpretations.
If a god wanted to reveal his word to the masses, he would have made it sparkling crystal clear to everyone, so that misinterpretations never occured.
Hence, inconsistent and contradictory.
Aside from the fact that the bible has been shown to be contradictory and inconsistent, it is interpreted such that theists are vehemently opposed to one anothers interpretations.
If a god wanted to reveal his word to the masses, he would have made it sparkling crystal clear to everyone, so that misinterpretations never occured.
Hence, inconsistent and contradictory.
(Q) said:
Trust me, God does make it crystal clear. The fact is that not everyone is listening. Some people don't want to hear from God, they want to use an "interpretation" that serves some other purpose...probably a selfish one.
Here's the logic flaw...
People sin, therefore I don't believe in God.
My advice...
Don't rely on people to enlighten you, rely on God. Um, that's what the Bible says to do, and that's what works for me.
Trust me
Only if you promise to take medication for your disorder.
Some people don't want to hear from God, they want to use an "interpretation" that serves some other purpose...probably a selfish one.
Since each person has their own interpretation, which usually contradicts anothers, then no one is listening or only one person is listening. Who is that one person, you?
Here's the logic flaw...
People sin, therefore I don't believe in God.
I wouldn't use that example as it is a weak argument.
Don't rely on people to enlighten you, rely on God.
Yes, we've been down that road before, it's a dead end.
Um, that's what the Bible says to do, and that's what works for me.
Sorry, but you don't follow the bible, unless you've found an interpretation that serves some purpose for you... probably a selfish one.
Only if you promise to take medication for your disorder.
Some people don't want to hear from God, they want to use an "interpretation" that serves some other purpose...probably a selfish one.
Since each person has their own interpretation, which usually contradicts anothers, then no one is listening or only one person is listening. Who is that one person, you?
Here's the logic flaw...
People sin, therefore I don't believe in God.
I wouldn't use that example as it is a weak argument.
Don't rely on people to enlighten you, rely on God.
Yes, we've been down that road before, it's a dead end.
Um, that's what the Bible says to do, and that's what works for me.
Sorry, but you don't follow the bible, unless you've found an interpretation that serves some purpose for you... probably a selfish one.
(Q) said:
Hey Q...if you don't want an answer, then why the fuck do you ask? And you know, I could really live without the incessant insults regarding my sanity. I don't do it to you. Don't do it to me. It's wrong, and I didn't need to look that up in the Bible to know it. It would really be nice if you guys could come up with some better arguement than "everyone who disagrees with me is delusional and should be medicated". It's shallow, stupid, and just plain boring. You didn't even hint at making a point in your last post. If you don't have anything more intelligent to say than that, why don't you just go whack off and spare the rest of us?
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I could really live without the incessant insults regarding my sanity. I don't do it to you. Don't do it to me.
You've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder that causes your hallucinations and the voices in your head. You deny that diagnosis in favor of the fantasy created by the disorder.
I said before that I'm trying to help you, but you insist I'm insulting you. Denial.
You didn't even hint at making a point in your last post.
Sure I did. I pointed out that only one persons interpretation of the bible could possibly be right since everyone has their own interpretation. I also pointed out that no ones interpretation might be right.
Is your interpretation correct over everyone elses? If you think so, then you are the only person who is listening to god. If not, then you're interpretation is wrong and you are following false interpretations.
So, is your interpretation the correct one?
You've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder that causes your hallucinations and the voices in your head. You deny that diagnosis in favor of the fantasy created by the disorder.
I said before that I'm trying to help you, but you insist I'm insulting you. Denial.
You didn't even hint at making a point in your last post.
Sure I did. I pointed out that only one persons interpretation of the bible could possibly be right since everyone has their own interpretation. I also pointed out that no ones interpretation might be right.
Is your interpretation correct over everyone elses? If you think so, then you are the only person who is listening to god. If not, then you're interpretation is wrong and you are following false interpretations.
So, is your interpretation the correct one?
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH NO SUCH THING, YOU LIAR. Helping me?!?!?! Helping me??? You dear, are the one who has lost your mind. You're not the slightest bit interested in "helping me", you're a condescending little twit who likes to insult me because it makes you feel better. Why don't you explain to me how it is that constantly insulting me is supposed to help anything?
I don't have an interpretation, and if I did, it would be no more correct than any other human's interpretation. If you're born again, you know that you don't rely on your own intellect to interpret the Bible, but on the author, the Holy Spirit. Why do I have to say the same things over and over? I don't believe that you're really stupid enough to not get what I'm saying, so I'm assuming that you just don't want to hear it.
I don't have an interpretation, and if I did, it would be no more correct than any other human's interpretation. If you're born again, you know that you don't rely on your own intellect to interpret the Bible, but on the author, the Holy Spirit. Why do I have to say the same things over and over? I don't believe that you're really stupid enough to not get what I'm saying, so I'm assuming that you just don't want to hear it.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH NO SUCH THING, YOU LIAR.
Your doctor diagnosed it, you already told us that story.
I don't have an interpretation, and if I did, it would be no more correct than any other human's interpretation.
You contradict yourself, again.
If you're born again, you know that you don't rely on your own intellect to interpret the Bible, but on the author, the Holy Spirit.
Ok, so the holy spirit interpreted it for you. It is still a single interpretation completely different than anyone elses.
Is it the correct interpretation? If so, you are the only one listening. If not, it is false and you are following false interpretations.
Your doctor diagnosed it, you already told us that story.
I don't have an interpretation, and if I did, it would be no more correct than any other human's interpretation.
You contradict yourself, again.
If you're born again, you know that you don't rely on your own intellect to interpret the Bible, but on the author, the Holy Spirit.
Ok, so the holy spirit interpreted it for you. It is still a single interpretation completely different than anyone elses.
Is it the correct interpretation? If so, you are the only one listening. If not, it is false and you are following false interpretations.
(Q) said:
What I said was that a doctor, who I had never seen before in my entire life, talked to me for about oh a minute and a half and said that I'm probably having some manic episode, and it may be problematic when I "came down". So it's been a year and a half...I hadn't ever had and "episode" before, and haven't had one since, and still haven't "come down". There is no "coming down" from the Holy Spirit. The only reason the poor little man said that is because he didn't have anything else to say...and I would imagine that being Jewish, he really didn't want to hear about being born again, and miracles and the like. And I'm sorry, but you don't have to be a doctor to know that one "episode" does not a disorder make.
No, maybe it is your intellect that's the problem here. The Holy Spirit is the interpreter. If I were to take an educated stab at it, I wouldn't be any better or worse off than any other person trying to take an educated stab at it. So my point is, why bother? The Holy Spirit is the Counselor. The Holy Spirit is the Word.
No, it's a single and consistent interpretation that is given to those who are born again. Just because you're not familiar with people who are born again, doesn't mean they don't exist. There are many who know God and commune with Him. The Word encompasses everything that has to do with life, and life provides a seemingly infinite number of opportunites for learning in a variety of ways. So not everyone learns the same things. But what is learned from the Holy Spirit is consistent among all, and is always confirmed in scripture.
What I said was that a doctor, who I had never seen before in my entire life, talked to me for about oh a minute and a half and said that I'm probably having some manic episode
In other words, he diagnosed you with bipolar because your case is classic.
So it's been a year and a half...I hadn't ever had and "episode" before, and haven't had one since, and still haven't "come down"
In other words, the 'episodes' are continuing.
The Holy Spirit is the Counselor. The Holy Spirit is the Word.
You sidestep the questions like every other theist.
Is the "Word" you receive from the "Holy Spirit" the correct word? If it is, you are the only one recieving the correct word and everyone else is wrong. Or, you are not recieving the correct word and are following false "Words."
So, answer the question, are you recieving the correct "Word?"
No, it's a single and consistent interpretation that is given to those who are born again.
Yet, everyone interprets it inconsistently, that is my point. You are either following the correct interpretation or you are not. It's really that simple.
But what is learned from the Holy Spirit is consistent among all, and is always confirmed in scripture.
That is a lie and you know it. YOU yourself have been involved in heated debates vehemently opposing others who also claim they're interpretation is confirmed by scriptures. You can't all be right.
So, are you right and everyone else is wrong? Answer the question.
In other words, he diagnosed you with bipolar because your case is classic.
So it's been a year and a half...I hadn't ever had and "episode" before, and haven't had one since, and still haven't "come down"
In other words, the 'episodes' are continuing.
The Holy Spirit is the Counselor. The Holy Spirit is the Word.
You sidestep the questions like every other theist.
Is the "Word" you receive from the "Holy Spirit" the correct word? If it is, you are the only one recieving the correct word and everyone else is wrong. Or, you are not recieving the correct word and are following false "Words."
So, answer the question, are you recieving the correct "Word?"
No, it's a single and consistent interpretation that is given to those who are born again.
Yet, everyone interprets it inconsistently, that is my point. You are either following the correct interpretation or you are not. It's really that simple.
But what is learned from the Holy Spirit is consistent among all, and is always confirmed in scripture.
That is a lie and you know it. YOU yourself have been involved in heated debates vehemently opposing others who also claim they're interpretation is confirmed by scriptures. You can't all be right.
So, are you right and everyone else is wrong? Answer the question.