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Young Iraqis leaving Islam?
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
IRAQ: 'Not Our Country To Return To'
Religion and occupation - two sides of the same blade,
Michael
(PS you can quote me on that - just be sure to cite me
Religion and occupation - two sides of the same blade,
Michael
(PS you can quote me on that - just be sure to cite me
Thank God, it's a miracle!
I have a friend who was raised Muslim and another raised as a Sikh. Both nice fellows and both as much an atheist as I am. BUT...there's no way they would act as anything other than devout believers in their community. They are under a lot of social pressure, and in the case of the Muslim, it could be violence against him or his family if he hinted a a crack in the faith.
Muslims can't just snub their nose at their faith as easily as I, raised a Christian, can call the whole Jesus mythology a bunch of perverted baloney and no more than nonsense gobbled up by the feeble minded.
Muslims can't just snub their nose at their faith as easily as I, raised a Christian, can call the whole Jesus mythology a bunch of perverted baloney and no more than nonsense gobbled up by the feeble minded.
You know oreodont - I was told something VERY similar. When I posted it here the response I got was it must be an "imaginary" friend :bugeye:
It seems the plan of the "liberators" is working. Demonizing Islam and alienating people from their religion is the biggest step to completely unhindered control of the Iraqi population. The brotherhood of faith brought them to their greatest hights, yet now the misrepresentation of their religion has divided them into different ideological factions and ethnic groups. The people interviewed, although inaccurate in their assertions, are certainly not to blame. They're leading lives which seemingly have no direction or purpose, and can only judge based on what they see. The truth of the matter is that their religion, when untarnished, is the shackles to their strength. Supporting fanatical religious fundamentalists is a sneaky trick deployed by the West to estrange the Iraqis from one another. This is nearly identical to Hamas' creation.
I love it when people think.
Kadark, you're trying to tell me that these are all "new" clerics that somehow suddenly cropped out of the ground - planted by the USA? Hardly. Come on, the USA is certainly not that competent. If it were our economy wouldn't be sinking into the tube along with Iraq. These clerics have been there for decades at least.
Everyone said fear of Saddam was the only thing that held the place together, Saddam was removed and instantly boom people went ape shit. THAT'S the fault of the USA? Maybe it's the fault of military planners from not PREVENTING Iraqis from going Ape shit but that's a whole hell of a lot different than saying they caused them to go ape shit.
Come on, put some responsibility on the shoulders of the people that live there.
Certainly you agree that the USA is NOT at all responsible for the menial old Shiia/Sunni divide in the ME? I am sure we agree on that one.
Also, wasn't Iraq in the war with Iran? Is that also the fault of the USA?
Isn't there a bunch of Kurds with a 100+ year grievance living there? Also the fault of the USA?
Ever see the way Pakistani people are treated by Arabs living in the UAE? Is that also the "Wests" fault?
Please,
Michael
I told you about the SBS special I watched (around 2005). These fat Iraqis tribal "leaders" all sitting around a nice carpet on pillows stuffing in the food and saying it's up to the Americans to pay for and build the nation?!?! Man that one still gets me. Not only are WE supposed to pay for it but we're also supposed to do the god damn work too?!? What kind of arse hole way of thinking is that?
See, that's the type of attitude that I think pervades many parts of the ME and hence things stay the same because no one wants to do anything and wants someone else to do it for them. It's a big problem. Look at UAE - entire thing being built be imported labor from India and Pakistan.
Michael,
I suggest you do a little research before postulating as to what did and did not happen, concerning Iraq's current environment and the events leading to it. All of the fundamentalist, extremist, militant, rigidly-Islamic individuals and clerics of the Iraqi society are being funded and supported by the U.S. military. This is a crystal clear fact. The purpose of this is to incite hatred amongst different Islamic denominations, and to defer the Iraqis from a national identity to that of a religious one. The U.S. knows that the only chance the Iraqis have of successfully removing their stationed soldiers is to unite under a banner with a common purpose. Instead, we've witnessed the focus shift from American presence to different factions and ethnic groups within the country. In a nutshell, supporting these rabid clerics helps turn the Iraqis against one another, and against their religion, which this thread in particular is about. The leaders who endorse a common cause amongst all Iraqis (regardless of faith) are being shunned and undermined, and made an unsupported minority. As long as extremists are encouraged by their leaders to advertise their view of the right system and the right religion, the Iraqis as a whole will never be on the same page. As a result, the occupation will last as long as the occupiers desire.
Can I blame the U.S. for Saddam and significant portions of the Iran-Iraq war? You bet. How do you think Saddam even got into power in the first place, Michael? Abdul Qasim, Iraq's prime minister at the time, was on the CIA's secretive "shitlist" for his communist sympathies/support. Saddam became well-acquainted with various American officials through different embassies (mainly in Egypt), which resulted in a CIA-coup of Qasim's government during 1963, establishing in its place soon-to-be Saddam's Ba'athist party. As you can see, the last fifty years (at least) of Iraq's history can be blamed almost entirely on the U.S. As for the Iraq-Iran war, I have lots to say on that topic as well, although I don't want to get into that (I suggest a PM if you're really curious and would like a lesson in history).
Oh, and by the way, nobody invited the U.S. to liberate Iraq. You're acting as if we asked for your services, and showed dissatisfaction in the results. You are free to witness these events through tunnel-vision, and to ignore the history which made things the way they are today. If you're talking about why Iraqis today are losing their faith, it's because they're falling victim to the cleverly orchestrated U.S. tactic. Demonize their religion, alienate Iraqis from one another, and divide the inhabitants through difference of religion and ethnicity. Supporting the fundamentalists not only helps the U.S. from avoiding a confrontation with an Iraqi national unity, but it also helps people like you show sympathy for the American endeavour worldwide. Sorry, but I'm not taking the bait.
I suggest you do a little research before postulating as to what did and did not happen, concerning Iraq's current environment and the events leading to it. All of the fundamentalist, extremist, militant, rigidly-Islamic individuals and clerics of the Iraqi society are being funded and supported by the U.S. military. This is a crystal clear fact. The purpose of this is to incite hatred amongst different Islamic denominations, and to defer the Iraqis from a national identity to that of a religious one. The U.S. knows that the only chance the Iraqis have of successfully removing their stationed soldiers is to unite under a banner with a common purpose. Instead, we've witnessed the focus shift from American presence to different factions and ethnic groups within the country. In a nutshell, supporting these rabid clerics helps turn the Iraqis against one another, and against their religion, which this thread in particular is about. The leaders who endorse a common cause amongst all Iraqis (regardless of faith) are being shunned and undermined, and made an unsupported minority. As long as extremists are encouraged by their leaders to advertise their view of the right system and the right religion, the Iraqis as a whole will never be on the same page. As a result, the occupation will last as long as the occupiers desire.
Can I blame the U.S. for Saddam and significant portions of the Iran-Iraq war? You bet. How do you think Saddam even got into power in the first place, Michael? Abdul Qasim, Iraq's prime minister at the time, was on the CIA's secretive "shitlist" for his communist sympathies/support. Saddam became well-acquainted with various American officials through different embassies (mainly in Egypt), which resulted in a CIA-coup of Qasim's government during 1963, establishing in its place soon-to-be Saddam's Ba'athist party. As you can see, the last fifty years (at least) of Iraq's history can be blamed almost entirely on the U.S. As for the Iraq-Iran war, I have lots to say on that topic as well, although I don't want to get into that (I suggest a PM if you're really curious and would like a lesson in history).
Oh, and by the way, nobody invited the U.S. to liberate Iraq. You're acting as if we asked for your services, and showed dissatisfaction in the results. You are free to witness these events through tunnel-vision, and to ignore the history which made things the way they are today. If you're talking about why Iraqis today are losing their faith, it's because they're falling victim to the cleverly orchestrated U.S. tactic. Demonize their religion, alienate Iraqis from one another, and divide the inhabitants through difference of religion and ethnicity. Supporting the fundamentalists not only helps the U.S. from avoiding a confrontation with an Iraqi national unity, but it also helps people like you show sympathy for the American endeavour worldwide. Sorry, but I'm not taking the bait.
Do you have any sort of evince to prove this point?
Lets take Muqtada al-Sadr. His father was a religious cleric before him. He’s a screw-bag who armed Shiia militia and sent them on killing sprees against the Sunni.
Who in return killed Shiia.
Did the USA orchestrate this? How?
That doesn’t even mention any of the people hoping to join up with Al Qaeda & Co. in Iraq.
This is my point, those ethnic divides where there well before Saddam even. Kurds, Shia, Sunni, Christians, Jews, Arabs, Persians, Turks, etc…
I maintain that it was the removal of Saddam that let loose the millennial old divides. And, for the most part the religious people really supported it. So I think. The Shia demonize the Sunni the Sunni Demonize the Shia. And these nutters from KSA joining Al Qaeda hoping fro martyrdom and killing people by blowing themselves up or cutting the heads off people well yelling God is Great – come on, the USA can’t organize that. It comes form centuries of hostility.
In a nut shell, with the TV and internet people are thinking, wait a minute this is all bull shit. Or so it seems to me.
Maybe with Obama not so long – I hope.
I agree that the USA had a role to play BUT lets not make the USA out to be God or something. The country is not omnipotent. Anyway, all countries leaders have played games to suite their best interest from day dot. The USA is not special nor an exception.
I agree the USA had a hand in it, but to put every little blame on the USA like they were some sort of God – please. All powerful nations are meddling in one anthers affairs.
OK, I see your point. But that’s too bad because the USA isn’t going to be their mom and wipe their nose. I never supported the war and I want us to leave now. A responsible Iraqi would think about working hard to make their country better not blaming the USA and saying we should do it or it doesn’t get done – that’s silly. So what – I guess it doesn’t get done. That’ll show them Americans – we’ll just live here in filth UNTIL they do something about it.
This I don’t agree with.
I think Saddam held that place together by fear. When he was gone that country began to disintegrate. Hell, the Kurds don’t even want to be a part of Iraq. Religious violence started because in the past it was Sunni ruling Shia and now it is Shia ruling Sunni. Add to the mix Al Qaeda and this is the end result.
I don’t think the USA is trying to get Iraqis to lose their faith. The USA really doesn’t care – so long as they get the oil. Iraqis are losing their faith as a consequence of the religious violence.
Michael,
I truly wish I had the patience and time to thoroughly discredit all of your erroneous claims, but history between us dictates that no amount of information will affect you. To sum up your argument, you're basically saying that there were large ethnic and religious divides (denominationally speaking) prior to Saddam. I cannot begin to tell you how incorrect this is. In case you have forgotten, everybody was functioning perfectly fine in that region until a few Europeans decided to draw a imaginary lines on a map allotting land to various peoples, with no regard or consideration to the inhabitants' history, ethnicity, religion, or connection to the land. The U.S. played a monumental role in assuring that Saddam's Ba'athist party proclaimed power, using a CIA coup to overthrow their existent government. You argue that the U.S. is not the only nation at fault. While there is an iota of truth to that, I cannot see how it is relevant to today, considering no other nation comes nearly close to matching the U.S.'s role and manipulation in that particular oil-rich region (both past and present).
Oh, and you say this: "I don’t think the USA is trying to get Iraqis to lose their faith. The USA really doesn’t care – so long as they get the oil." Well, of course they don't truly care what the religion is of the people they're stealing from - however, it does make the process a lot easier for America's oilmen when the Iraqis are fighting each other, rather than the Americans. Does it make sense to you that the invaded Iraqis would fight each other naturally, rather than fighting the occupiers? It's simply the age-old method of divide and conquer. Have people question their own religion, question the religion of others, fund both sides unconditionally, and see the idiots destroy each other. I mean, the nation of Iraq (as we call it today) never had this kind of a hostile inner-conflict. When Iraq was a part of the Ottoman Empire, how many Sunni-Shi'ite riots and massacres were there? When were the Kurds sworn enemies to the other ethnicities? It was never a problem. Funding and magnifying the power of a few insane clerics is enough to turn the attention and blame from the U.S. to the conquered Iraqis themselves.
Did you, in any significant way, change your interpretation or viewpoint on Islam, post-911?
I truly wish I had the patience and time to thoroughly discredit all of your erroneous claims, but history between us dictates that no amount of information will affect you. To sum up your argument, you're basically saying that there were large ethnic and religious divides (denominationally speaking) prior to Saddam. I cannot begin to tell you how incorrect this is. In case you have forgotten, everybody was functioning perfectly fine in that region until a few Europeans decided to draw a imaginary lines on a map allotting land to various peoples, with no regard or consideration to the inhabitants' history, ethnicity, religion, or connection to the land. The U.S. played a monumental role in assuring that Saddam's Ba'athist party proclaimed power, using a CIA coup to overthrow their existent government. You argue that the U.S. is not the only nation at fault. While there is an iota of truth to that, I cannot see how it is relevant to today, considering no other nation comes nearly close to matching the U.S.'s role and manipulation in that particular oil-rich region (both past and present).
Oh, and you say this: "I don’t think the USA is trying to get Iraqis to lose their faith. The USA really doesn’t care – so long as they get the oil." Well, of course they don't truly care what the religion is of the people they're stealing from - however, it does make the process a lot easier for America's oilmen when the Iraqis are fighting each other, rather than the Americans. Does it make sense to you that the invaded Iraqis would fight each other naturally, rather than fighting the occupiers? It's simply the age-old method of divide and conquer. Have people question their own religion, question the religion of others, fund both sides unconditionally, and see the idiots destroy each other. I mean, the nation of Iraq (as we call it today) never had this kind of a hostile inner-conflict. When Iraq was a part of the Ottoman Empire, how many Sunni-Shi'ite riots and massacres were there? When were the Kurds sworn enemies to the other ethnicities? It was never a problem. Funding and magnifying the power of a few insane clerics is enough to turn the attention and blame from the U.S. to the conquered Iraqis themselves.
Did you, in any significant way, change your interpretation or viewpoint on Islam, post-911?
Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies.
Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies.
Cool. I'd say the Iraq war did to me what 9/11 did to you.
Yeah, thats what I meant. Mullahs are incidental to Islam and the sooner Muslims realise that the better.
You broke it, its yours.
Lets just say that prior to that, I had not been religious or very interested in what was happening in other Muslim countries or societies.
Yes it's strange how terrorists seem so good at recruiting people to their religion.
Yeah, I hear you don't even need a draft to bomb people for no reason. :bugeye:
Well SAM, you know what? I hate the foreign policy of the USA too but that doesn't get me to drop to my knees and pray to the east.
Nope, you're too busy enjoying a society based on colonialism and "free trade" practices. :roflmao:
Do you think the idea of "Mullahs" should be eradicated altogether, or that they shouldn't wield so much power? Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a man well-educated on Islam teaching what he knows to others. Perhaps you had a different approach?