wy did jesus have to be concieved without "sin"

[one_raven]

Humans made a bad choice and are fallen. They don't have to be punished. Death has been conquered.

Are you referring to original sin.
Do you think it is fair to punish all mankind to follow for the folly of Adam and Eve failing to follow the instructions of God before anyone else existed?
Do you think it is fair for even Adam and Eve alone to be punished for following the instructions of God before they were even aware of the difference between Right and Wrong?

 

[one_raven]

Adam knew not to disobey God but he did anyway.

Not knowing Good from Evil, HOW did he know not to disobey God?

 

[one_raven]

I have to go to work. I hope you have a good day.

Likewise.
I look forward to continuing this.

 

[SnakeLord]

They knew God

That is entirely inconsequential. Without having knowledge of good or evil, god has no status to them and they could happily urinate in his face without any understanding of whether it is a good thing to do or not.

and they knew what He said about the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Sure, just like they knew what the serpent said about the fruit of the tree of knowledge. But again it is inconsequential. Without having the knowledge of good and evil, whatever god says is of absolutely no value to Adam or Eve.

They wanted the knowledge.

Certainly, they were created that way, and put in such a position where there was no choice but to get that knowledge. It was a set up, (which you guys refer to as "gods will"), and yet instead of understanding that your type generally sit there and curse Adam and Eve, label them sinners and so on and so forth which is simply unfounded.

Then his wife turned around and blamed it on the serpent. We do the same. When we sin against God, we don't want to accept responsibility for it.

Dalahar: Do you have any understanding of what you're stating they should have done instead?

Perhaps you're not aware of it, but you are suggesting they should have lied to god. If you read the bible you'll see that the serpent tempts Eve and then she tells Adam to have some. When Adam explains the situation to god he states it 100% truthfully. For some reason you seemingly want him to have lied to god instead.

Would not lying add to his punishment? Is there a problem with honesty? You call it blame, but in actuality it's 'truthfulness'. Being able to tell the truth is something you should be proud of him for, not trying to put him down merely because he didn't lie to god.

 

[geeser]

well said snakelord, I know you dont want praise, however I enjoyed reading that.

 

[Lori_7]

Perhaps you can explain something to me.
If we do not go to Hell for sinning (please check all my Bible quotes above) then why do we wretched sinners need Jesus to stay out of Hell?
It makes no sense to me.
In one breath you say that Jesus is the only way to keep us horrible compulsive sinners out of Hell (since we are all sinners, we all need Jesus to stay out of Hell).
In the next you are saying that sinning doesn't get you into Hell.
Sounds like a contradiction to me.

You seem to be saying that God came down here to save us because we were sinning and in his infinite compassion, wanted to offer us a way out of eternal Hellfire.
So, since we would be going to Hell as sinners, he said, "OK. Come to me. Accept me into your heart and repent, and I will save you from Hell and accept you into my bosom if you are willing to be accepted.

Basically, "You are going to Hell because you sinned, but I am offering you a do-over.
Do you want it?"

If that's the case, reason dictates that sinners go to Hell, unless they turn to God, and ALL people sin, so ALL people need God.
Eternal co-dependency.
I don't understand why anyone would chose to be a member of a religion that constantly tells you that you are a piece of $hit, that does not have the capacity to live without being a selfish sinning bastard.

So, what, then, if not sinning, is the ticket to Hell?

It's a choice. One chooses to go to hell. One chooses sin. One chooses the consequence of it. All while, simultaniously cursing and denying God, which seems very contradictory to me but...

If you reject God in life, why wouldn't you do the same in the afterlife? After all, it can be fairly "hellish" here.

Here's the deal...eternal life and death are obviously mutually exclusive. The consequence of sin is death. So, there can be no sin in an eternal creation.

Do you want sin and death? Or do you want eternal life? "Cake or death?" "Cake, please!"

Jesus is the Saviour because it is only through Him that we receive the truth. About God, and the Holy Spirit, and His law, and life, death, sin, and why we're here, and what all of this means. And that's because Jesus was God walking around on this earth in the flesh.

It's not codependency, it's communion with your Creator, the source of all life and law and truth. And it's done voluntarily, and as a consequence of true love and complete trust, which is often times referred to as faith.

And God does not make me feel like a piece of shit...I do an excellent job of that all by myself. He loves me, and He makes that really clear to me, no matter what. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is the catalyst for learning about good and evil...about life and death. We're here to learn, and make a choice based upon what we've learned. And very importantly, we are to learn by experience. Knowledge and understanding comes by experience. God doesn't want us to be spoon-fed, not even by Him. Which explains why the fall of man was God's "fault".





Snakelord,

I didn't call it "fault" because it implies something was done wrong or in error, and that is not the case. The fall of man was the remedy for Adam and Eve's ignorance. Now, thanks to them, we do have knowledge of good and evil, and can make an informed choice. What's the problem with that?

 

[Hapsburg]

AB Jadon,

Your comments are one of the strongest reasons to reject christianity that I've ever seen. Have a nice day.

Ja! I agree.
What amazes me is that he's stupid enough to keep calling a thread, "string", even though we've told him repeatedly that he's using incorrect terminology.

 

[Tjalian]

What amazes me is that he's stupid enough to keep calling a thread, "string", even though we've told him repeatedly that he's using incorrect terminology.

If you read my comments in my string U will 'see'!!

 

[Hapsburg]

It's called a "Thread", dumbass. Your comments in it do not negate the fact that you are using wrong terminology. Stop being an arrogant fucktard, and start using proper terminology.
When you use improper terms and words, you make yourself seem like an idiot. Not that you need to try hard to do that, anyway.

 

[Tjalian]

It's called a "Thread", dumbass.

Hm? Didn't know that! Thanks for explaining it, I appreciate it

Your comments in it do not negate the fact that you are using wrong terminology.

Termianalogy. You spelled it wrong dumbass

Stop being an arrogant fucktard, and start using proper terminology.

I'll try

When you use improper terms and words, you make yourself seem like an idiot.

Good to know, thx =)

Not that you need to try hard to do that, anyway.

Yeah, eheh

Hey, but I'm not Angelic Being, I just registered a few days ago !!

 

[Hapsburg]

Huh. Then why do you act and sound like him?

 

[SnakeLord]

The fall of man was the remedy for Adam and Eve's ignorance. Now, thanks to them, we do have knowledge of good and evil, and can make an informed choice. What's the problem with that?

I shall tell you what the problem with that is: You called it "the fall of man", when nobody fell. Instead they did exactly what god created them to do, intended for them to do, and gave them no choice but to do - all in the name of this grand "gods will". It wasn't a fall, it was absolute perfection. Your god wanted it that exact way - and he got it.

Yet here you are several thousand years later thinking all of mankind has to make atonement for 2 completely uneducated people who only did exactly what they were supposed to. We should have an Adam and Eve celebration day to commemorate their amazing change from unknowing animals into intelligent and knowing humans who have since then, and all because of them, reached other planets - explored the bottom of the ocean, created literal, musical and artistical masterpieces and so on.

Instead of getting the respect they deserve, they are shunned by your type, who then proceed to tell the rest of us that we have to apologise for their supposed "original sin", (that was in no way a sin), or burn. It just ain't on, and it just ain't right.

(Oh and a big thanks to Geeser and Dalahar for the nice comments).

 

[Lori_7]

I shall tell you what the problem with that is: You called it "the fall of man", when nobody fell. Instead they did exactly what god created them to do, intended for them to do, and gave them no choice but to do - all in the name of this grand "gods will". It wasn't a fall, it was absolute perfection. Your god wanted it that exact way - and he got it.



Yet here you are several thousand years later thinking all of mankind has to make atonement for 2 completely uneducated people who only did exactly what they were supposed to. We should have an Adam and Eve celebration day to commemorate their amazing change from unknowing animals into intelligent and knowing humans who have since then, and all because of them, reached other planets - explored the bottom of the ocean, created literal, musical and artistical masterpieces and so on.

Instead of getting the respect they deserve, they are shunned by your type, who then proceed to tell the rest of us that we have to apologise for their supposed "original sin", (that was in no way a sin), or burn.

It's called the fall of man because we fell into a sinful state or condition that allows us all to experience evil and death. Because of their ignorance, they didn't trust God and believed a lie. And they made a bad choice based upon the lie. So now, ignorance is no excuse. You're absolutely right...it's perfect. That's how God is. And I do not shun or blame Adam or Eve or God. I'm thankful for free will and for knowledge. God doesn't want us to be deceived because we're ignorant. I'm glad that I'm not.

It is not correct to say that mankind is to make atonement for any sin. Not even your own, much less someone else's. God Himself made atonement for all of us in Christ. And apologizing doesn't keep you from hell, knowing God does. And I know that someone who lived their lives without ever wanting to apologize for anything would never want to know God either. So if that's what's keeping you from Him, then it's a damn shame. It's not supposed to be about our ego. Our ego is part of the problem. It's about a realization of truth. The truth is that we all have a hell of a lot to apologize for. And what happened back in the garden explains why.

 

[superluminal]

Lori:

And I know that someone who lived their lives without ever wanting to apologize for anything would never want to know God either. So if that's what's keeping you from Him, then it's a damn shame. It's not supposed to be about our ego. Our ego is part of the problem. It's about a realization of truth. The truth is that we all have a hell of a lot to apologize for. And what happened back in the garden explains why.

So, you think all non-believers are egomaniacal arrogant assholes with no humility and are clearly stupid enough to reject the blindingly obvious presence of god? Just because we want to spend eternity in hell, or whatever?

Listen, you may get your truth from intracranial telecommunications with god. For those of us without the right transceiver equipment, it's a bit more difficult.

So, why the fuck does god hide his obvious existence? Would any but the insane reject him then? No. Show yourself big G to those of us who would love to be part of something bigger. Explain all of the idiocy written and committed in your name. Explain and make clear how all evidence points to an ancient and natural world while you hide in mysticism. We pray thee, come down and unambiguously put and end to all of this motherfucking bullshit. Explain why billions think you're a myth and practice Buddhism. Explain why bad things happen to good people. Explain yourself you cowardly dickwad. You created us. You gave us (some of us) intelligence. We used it. We learned. You failed. Fix us. Right now bitch.

Amen.

 

[§outh§tar]

Listen, you may get your truth from intracranial telecommunications with god.

LMFAO

 

[one_raven]

Show yourself big G to those of us who would love to be part of something bigger. Explain all of the idiocy written and committed in your name. Explain and make clear how all evidence points to an ancient and natural world while you hide in mysticism. We pray thee, come down and unambiguously put and end to all of this motherfucking bullshit. Explain why billions think you're a myth and practice Buddhism. Explain why bad things happen to good people. Explain yourself you cowardly dickwad. You created us. You gave us (some of us) intelligence. We used it. We learned. You failed. Fix us. Right now bitch.

Amen.

Did you get that directly from the Catholic missal?
It sounds familiar, but it's been years since catechism lessons.

 

[superluminal]

Why yes, yes I did.

 

[superluminal]

L,

My last post was sincere. No joke. My frustration runs so deep on this subject that it hurts. Can you understand?

 

[Raithere]

Show yourself big G to those of us who would love to be part of something bigger. Explain all of the idiocy written and committed in your name. Explain and make clear how all evidence points to an ancient and natural world while you hide in mysticism. We pray thee, come down and unambiguously put and end to all of this motherfucking bullshit. Explain why billions think you're a myth and practice Buddhism. Explain why bad things happen to good people. Explain yourself you cowardly dickwad. You created us. You gave us (some of us) intelligence. We used it. We learned. You failed. Fix us. Right now bitch.

Amen.

From now on I'll be praying nightly.

~Raithere

 

[SnakeLord]

It's called the fall of man because we fell into a sinful state or condition

You're wrong. (I wont say "we", because the events in the G of E have absolutely nothing to do with "we"). But you see, Adam and Eve would have been no less 'sinful' before eating the fruit - they just wouldn't have recognised it as 'sin'. Not to mention that they were created specifically that way. They/we are no more guilty for anything they/we do than a tiger is guilty of murder. It is a tigers nature, it is our nature - given to us by the one that designed us down to our very last molecule.

'We' didn't fall into anything, and neither did they. They merely evolved to such a degree whereby they could realise god had made them imperfect.

that allows us all to experience evil and death.

There is no justification to say there would have been no death before eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Not only would lions, tigers and t-rex look mighty odd eating flowers, (which is still death when you actually think about it), not only would a vulture have absolutely no way of eating and no actual purpose, but there was a 'tree of life' that might have provided them with eternal life but there is no indication that they ever ate from it - indeed the opposite.

Because of their ignorance, they didn't trust God and believed a lie.

As I have already explained, there was simply no reason to listen to god. Trust is not an issue. Further to which they did not believe a lie - the serpent told the truth:

"The day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good from evil".

This is attested to by god himself who then says:

"Now that man has become like one of us, {us? lol how many are there}, knowing good from evil.."

And they made a bad choice based upon the lie.

It wasn't a bad choice, it was a good one - and the only possible one as explained earlier. It seems you don't even know where you're at or what you feel, one minute saying it's a great thing they ate it, but then the next labelling it as 'bad'. They made the perfect choice.

So now, ignorance is no excuse

No excuse to what? Whether they now know about good and evil or not, it does not change their nature to be human anymore - of which god is entirely responsible for. And much more than you realise..

If you zoom ahead in your bible a little way you'll come across the Tower of Babel portion. From the text there you can see that mankind was getting along famously - so much so that god was in a panic and had to "confuse" man so they couldn't get along, couldn't work together, couldn't understand each other.

Before that they were getting along famously, but then god came along and "confused the language of the whole world and scattered them all over the world".

These people were united as the bible explains, and it really worried god who said:

'"This is only the start of their undertakings! Now nothing they do will be beyond them. (because they were working together and getting along). Come let us {us? Lol how many of them are there?), go down and confuse their language there so they cannot understand each other". Yahweh scattered them thence all over the world, and they stopped building the city.

God Himself made atonement for all of us in Christ.

Sounds like the natural thing to do given that he is entirely responsible for the situation.

And apologizing doesn't keep you from hell, knowing God does.

Oopsie, guess that's a lot of ancient people who lived before jesus and tribal jungle folk all going to hell then. Or do they get an automatic pardon because they're "ignorant" of jesus? If so, I would have to point out that it means people would be generally better off never having heard of jesus.

So if that's what's keeping you from Him, then it's a damn shame.

I guess you don't hear too well. How many thousands of times have I stated that the only thing 'keeping me from him/her/it/them' is absolute zero evidence to suggest existence of such a thing.

We are both atheists Lori, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods you'll understand why I dismiss yours. (not my quote, I just added the 'Lori' bit).

Does that help you understand my position better?

The truth is that we all have a hell of a lot to apologize for

Speak for yourself. I have no reason to apologise for being me. If 'me' is not liked, I shouldn't have been made to be me, but to be something other than me.

And what happened back in the garden explains why.

No, as I've already explained. What happened in the garden was god's intention. All it explains is that Adam and Eve did everything they were supposed to do.