Wonderful Heaven

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

What are you looking at then?

Why?

What text are you talking about if it isn't the bible?

Give a reference then to this alleged text that shows that God did not command Adam to not eat the fruit.

And then if it wasn't a command then Adam could not have disobeyed God and his action could not have been a sin, in which case why was he punished?

Kat

I'm talking about the verb, Kat. The verb "commanded". Geez.

I read what God said and found that the verb used was inappropriate in context. That is what I'm talking about.

Adam was already given a choice of "You must not eat the fruit, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

In other words. Eat the fruit, you die. Don't eat the fruit, you don't die.

Given a choice of whether he wanted to die or not. He chose to die, how is that God punishing him? Need I reiterate again that in a command, a choice is not given?

Some more examples
Exodus 20
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.

You and I know these are commands. There are no choices given.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

There is a choice given here. If you want to live long in the land, honor your parents. If you dont wan't to live long, don't honor your parents.

Do you understand that God could have said "Honor your parents" and left it at that? But He did not, He gave a choice.

Imagine if He said, "You shall not murder, else you will fall dead". Do you see how that gives a choice of whether or not you want to fall dead?

 

[Dreamwalker]

Don´t you think that a command is more effective when a consequence is affixed?
I mean: You shall not murder!... So what? Why not? What´s the consequence of murdering? Nothing obviously. Actually it gives you more of a choice than: You shall not murder, else you will fall dead!
Because something like that gives you a definite consequence. I would rather heed that one than just "you shall not murder".

 

[fahrenheit 451]

Are you insinuating that the "purely" historic accounts found in the Bible were dictated by the Spirit?

Luke 3
1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas,

Look at the amazing detail given to historical events here, you are therefore implying that this text was dictated by God to man.

no, I dont think she is.
but you do believe the bible, to be the word of god do you not.
if not, then you are the only religious person, in the whole world who does'nt.

 

[§outh§tar]

Don´t you think that a command is more effective when a consequence is affixed?
I mean: You shall not murder!... So what? Why not? What´s the consequence of murdering? Nothing obviously. Actually it gives you more of a choice than: You shall not murder, else you will fall dead!
Because something like that gives you a definite consequence. I would rather heed that one than just "you shall not murder".

What you are implying is that God needed to give Adam and Eve incentive to obey him, by telling them something more compelling.

Of course that does not at all, refute what I said because God still said:

Thou shalt not kill.

Dontcha think He would have made this one more "compelling" as well?

 

[§outh§tar]

no, I dont think she is.
but you do believe the bible, to be the word of god do you not.
if not, then you are the only religious person, in the whole world who does'nt.

I am the Defender of the Faith. Thou shalt not question me.

Well, I do believe the Bible to be inspired by the Spirit of Holiness, which might as well be God's own Word. Of course, what I am trying to say is we can't place the WHOLE Bible under one umbrella, that is to claim all of it came from God's dictate/edict (esp. by the example from Luke I gave).

That does not at all "diminish" the Bible's authenticity in any way.

 

[fahrenheit 451]

I'm talking about the verb, Kat. The verb "commanded". Geez.

I read what God said and found that the verb used was inappropriate in context. That is what I'm talking about.

Adam was already given a choice of "You must not eat the fruit, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

In other words. Eat the fruit, you die. Don't eat the fruit, you don't die.

Given a choice of whether he wanted to die or not. He chose to die, how is that God punishing him? Need I reiterate again that in a command, a choice is not given?

Some more examples
Exodus 20
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.

You and I know these are commands. There are no choices given.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

There is a choice given here. If you want to live long in the land, honor your parents. If you dont wan't to live long, don't honor your parents.

Do you understand that God could have said "Honor your parents" and left it at that? But He did not, He gave a choice.

Imagine if He said, "You shall not murder, else you will fall dead". Do you see how that gives a choice of whether or not you want to fall dead?

the word "MUST",is a command word, the choice is irrelevent, as the order was given .(( you must obey or you die)a command)
I'm sorry, for this but, you seem to be a complete muppet.
you dont seem to know, what a command is.
have you ever, read the bible.
as it supposed, to be the word of god.

 

[§outh§tar]

The dictionary alternatively supplies:

be required by law, custom, or moral conscience to <we must obey the rules>

You must not kill, for when you do you will go to jail.

Moral conscience and the law appeals here. If you do want to go to jail, this is the way to do it. That is the choice its giving you. See the difference?

I personally think that the context requires this definition, don't you think? The example you gave "you must obey or you die", perfectly suits my argument. If you dont want to die, obey me. If you do want to die, don't obey me.

Alternatively:

Obey me.

That is a command.

For more information (stuff I found on google):
http://www.englisch-hilfen.de/en/grammar/imperativ.htm
http://www.scientificpsychic.com/grammar/enggram8.html

 

[OliverJ]

The ones on the fence indeed are the ones who will inherit the kingdom of our Creator, if in fact such a place exsists.

Think about it. I sat here and read everything everyone has said here. And this is all I can say. I apologize for not having time to explain it more. But I would have to write a book in order to do so. But shit... I got things to do before I die. Maybe I will someday have time to sit down and write a book , and if I do you guys wil be the first to know

 

[Neildo]

Satan actually wants to rule you. And Satan didn't do us a favor by bringing sorrow our way either. In this case, the "bad" outways the "good" he brought us.

Then you must believe that ignorance is bliss. Go live in a cave as you may live a happier life of ignorance.

One more thing, ignorant people use "good" and "bad" all the time and you worry me if you say we are "enlightened" enough to be like gods. gods dont progress intellectually, do they? I think you should write a book.

I'm just going by what is written in the Bible. We were created in God's image and we also ate the fruit of knowledge from which only the gods are allowed. We have the knowledge of the gods. No other being on Earth has the creative intellect as us other than the gods so in that sense, we are gods, albeit highly from perfected ones, but we have all the prerequisites to become them.

How do you know that gods do not progress intellectually? That's how things become gods in the first place. You must first define what a god is. We were built to be gods, even if it wasn't intended for us to become full-fledged ones due to our having eaten from the tree of knowledge, but we did. While of course we are not the original god almighty creator of all, because we have the knowledge of the gods, we are able to become one. That's the reason why progressing intellectually applies to us or anyone else that eats from the tree of knowledge. If those that eat from the tree of knowledge didn't originally have that knowledge of enlightenment as Adam and Eve did not, they have to first acquire it and then learn everything from scratch so eventually we will become gods (note: gods in the sense of demi-gods, not god almighty creator of all-type god).

And just imagine if Adam and Eve would have eaten from the tree of life as well. That would have been one hell of a jumpstart to quickly fill their minds with knowledge unlike how it currently is where we learn things then die. Death is the only thing that makes us so we're not full-fledged gods. We learn a lot, die, then have to start all over from scratch again unless we save and pass down our knowledge to the next person so that they don't have to start from scratch. That is, until we find a way to unlock this curse God bestowed upon us. Could that not be the purpose of life since we're doomed with hopeless death? We don't have this knowledge for nothing, let's not waste it, so let's at least use it and return from whence we came.

It's funny how when it comes to God and our daily lives, things are so reversed. In our daily lives we're supposed to work towards something yet when someone tries to get by by kissing ass, they're looked down upon. Yet when it comes to going back to where we came from, we're looked down upon and deemed a Satanist if trying to work towards getting there and it's those that kiss the ass of and worship God is supposedly the real way. It's the same thing when I mentioned how people take important tasks in life seriously yet when it comes to God and religion, they don't. They use logic to study numerous sources to pass the S.A.T.'s or something else important yet with the most important task of all -- God or religion -- , they read just one holy book, if that, rather than study religion as a whole to expand their minds to get a better understanding of God. Why is it that when it comes to God, things are done half-assed yet we're bad if we work towards something, even if it's towards God?

- N

 

[§outh§tar]

Then you must believe that ignorance is bliss. Go live in a cave as you may live a happier life of ignorance.



I'm just going by what is written in the Bible. We were created in God's image and we also ate the fruit of knowledge from which only the gods are allowed. We have the knowledge of the gods. No other being on Earth has the creative intellect as us other than the gods so in that sense, we are gods, albeit highly from perfected ones, but we have all the prerequisites to become them.

I didn't know there were prerequisites to "become" a god. God is perfect. Since you are "just going by what is written in the Bible", you should know that there is only one God, and the rest of creation are His slaves. Yes, the word is slaves.

How do you know that gods do not progress intellectually? That's how things become gods in the first place. You must first define what a god is. We were built to be gods, even if it wasn't intended for us to become full-fledged ones due to our having eaten from the tree of knowledge, but we did. While of course we are not the original god almighty creator of all, because we have the knowledge of the gods, we are able to become one. That's the reason why progressing intellectually applies to us or anyone else that eats from the tree of knowledge. If those that eat from the tree of knowledge didn't originally have that knowledge of enlightenment as Adam and Eve did not, they have to first acquire it and then learn everything from scratch so eventually we will become gods (note: gods in the sense of demi-gods, not god almighty creator of all-type god).

We were built to be slaves. Since you are going by what the bible tells us, you should know that we were given "intellect" for the purpose of pleasing God. And how is a god not "full-fledged"? Just so I can converse, let's say there really is more than one God. And these are demi-gods. God requires these demi-gods, to worship Him and Him alone. He hates idolatry of anything but Himself, hence being a "jealous" God. Since He truly cannot be compared to human beings (an "imperfect" being trying to comparing perfection to imperfection), why call yourself a god. You would first have to know what God is (fully) in order to conclude that you are a demi-god. Otherwise, it's just vanity.

And just imagine if Adam and Eve would have eaten from the tree of life as well. That would have been one hell of a jumpstart to quickly fill their minds with knowledge unlike how it currently is where we learn things then die. Death is the only thing that makes us so we're not full-fledged gods. We learn a lot, die, then have to start all over from scratch again unless we save and pass down our knowledge to the next person so that they don't have to start from scratch. That is, until we find a way to unlock this curse God bestowed upon us. Could that not be the purpose of life since we're doomed with hopeless death? We don't have this knowledge for nothing, let's not waste it, so let's at least use it and return from whence we came.

Without death, we would surely kill ourselves off. Is that what gods do?

It's funny how when it comes to God and our daily lives, things are so reversed. In our daily lives we're supposed to work towards something yet when someone tries to get by by kissing ass, they're looked down upon.

Comes back to idolatry which deviates the focus from God..

Yet when it comes to going back to where we came from, we're looked down upon and deemed a Satanist if trying to work towards getting there and it's those that kiss the ass of and worship God is supposedly the real way. It's the same thing when I mentioned how people take important tasks in life seriously yet when it comes to God and religion, they don't. They use logic to study numerous sources to pass the S.A.T.'s or something else important yet with the most important task of all -- God or religion -- , they read just one holy book, if that, rather than study religion as a whole to expand their minds to get a better understanding of God.

Studying the Bible will get you no closer to heaven. Only Jesus will do that. These people are very disillusioned. After all, there are Bible scholars (well versed in the Bible) who think Jesus was great and all, but reject any idea that He is the Son of God.

Why is it that when it comes to God, things are done half-assed yet we're bad if we work towards something, even if it's towards God?

- N

Tell that to the people in here who want to blame man's faults on God.

P.S. If you ever wrote a book, I'd read it.

 

[OliverJ]

you should know that there is only one God, and the rest of creation are His slaves. Yes, the word is slaves.

So you admit it then , he was a cruel creator !!!!!!!

I want and apology before I worship him.... I'll be go to hell.

 

[invert_nexus]

SouthStar,

Now you're back to it being a command? Was this a typo?

How can it not be a command after what I've shown?

Did you mean to say "How can it be a command after what I've shown?" I begin to think that you are a master of doublethink. The christian order commends you...


Edit: Ooops, I mean you're back to it not being a command.

 

[Enigma'07]

So you admit it then , he was a cruel creator !!!!!!!

I want and apology before I worship him.... I'll be go to hell

He wants an apology for what you've done to him, but from what you say, it seems that you think you've never done anything wrong. so then, I suppose you're right.

 

[Neildo]

I didn't know there were prerequisites to "become" a god. God is perfect.

Only gods have the knowledge of good and evil. There are no other creatures here on Earth other than us and the gods that have that knowledge. The only thing we currently lack is immortality since Adam and Eve did not eat from the tree of life. With that knowledge we have the ability to find a way to eliminate death. Those are the two things that make one a god. By having eaten from the tree of enlightenment, we have the ability to create and know good from evil, unlike anyone/thing else but the other gods.

We were built to be slaves. Since you are going by what the bible tells us, you should know that we were given "intellect" for the purpose of pleasing God.

Yes, we were originally built to be slaves, but God is NOT perfect unless he knew full-well knew what would happen with Adam and Eve. He is either not perfect in that he created a faulty product that had no knowledge to know right from wrong therefore they unknowingly sinned, or he is perfect in that he knew exactly what would happen and in that case, he did not create us to be slaves because Adam and Eve were only mindless drones before having eaten from the tree of enlightenment. And since they did eat from that tree, they now have knowledge of good and evil and that no longer makes one a slave. We know God for what he really is from that knowledge and the smarter of people do not worship him as slaves. So if he *is* perfect and knew all of this would happen in that we'd eat the fruit of the gods, then we were created and manipulated through ignorance to become gods.

And how is a god not "full-fledged"? Just so I can converse, let's say there really is more than one God. And these are demi-gods. God requires these demi-gods, to worship Him and Him alone. He hates idolatry of anything but Himself, hence being a "jealous" God. Since He truly cannot be compared to human beings (an "imperfect" being trying to comparing perfection to imperfection), why call yourself a god. You would first have to know what God is (fully) in order to conclude that you are a demi-god. Otherwise, it's just vanity.

I didn't say the original God almighty creator of all isn't full-fledged but rather everyone else. Anyone who eats from the tree of englightenment is from that point on, a demi-god, or at least has the ability to become one. No other being has the intellect of those that have that fruitful knowledge. And yes, they, and we, are demi-gods because while we have that powerful knowledge, we still don't have the full power of God so we're still under him/her/it, hence the term "demi-god" and not "God".

And God needs to clean up his act if he wishes for the demi-gods to worship him. We have the knowledge of good and evil -- his knowledge -- so we know how much of an ass he's being with his jealousy. It seems he isn't so perfect afterall, but rather, a bit human like us. Now you know why we act the way and do the things we do, because we all have the inherit traits of God him/her/itself. Now the question is, is that wrong?

Comes back to idolatry which deviates the focus from God..

Studying the Bible will get you no closer to heaven. Only Jesus will do that.

Do you not notice the problem in your statements? Jesus deviates the focus from God therefore Jesus is idolatry. Let us not do whatever we need to do for God to get to Heaven, we have to do it all to Jesus instead. Let's let all our attention go to Jesus and let us worship him as our idol while we forget about the true God. Mmhmm..

- N

 

[Michael]

By your reasoning it is a “command” not to kill – however, not to worship idols is "not a command" because god outlines the punishment you’ll get afterwards.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God ,
punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third
and fourth generation of those who hate me … bla bla bla

Added to the fact you’ve flip-flopped back and forth within your own writings on whether or not Adam and Eve were commanded or not.

Originally Posted by SouthStar
How can it not be a command after what I've shown?

and I’d say you are just squirming this way and that way trying to get out of the Adam and Eve paradox – and you haven’t.

It remains a paradox until you accept that your God is inherently evil. Your God, in actuality, ALWAYS wanted man to suffer. That MUST be the case. As soon as you realize that, then the paradox vanishes. Placing a forbidden tree in the garden is Gods pitiful excuse to justify mans needless suffering. Which God enjoys.

The simple fact is God (having the ability to do ANYTHING – whatever that means) could have created a world were man had free will and never had the opportunity to suffer – because as a concept suffering couldn’t exist. As God didn’t build such a universe we can conclude God wants suffering. As god wants suffering – plan on getting a heap of it in heaven.

 

[invert_nexus]

It remains a paradox until you accept that your God is inherently evil.

I think of it more as neutral than evil. He flip flops as astutely as his followers. But, he does lean towards evil more than good. He is very self-centered and that has a lot to say about being evil.

 

[§outh§tar]

@ Michael.

It was a typo. Sheesh.

 

[§outh§tar]

I think of it more as neutral than evil. He flip flops as astutely as his followers. But, he does lean towards evil more than good. He is very self-centered and that has a lot to say about being evil.

How is self-centered being evil when you are God? He has all the right as Master and Creator, The Far Sides of the Universe.



//So what if that was lame

 

[OliverJ]

He wants an apology for what you've done to him, but from what you say, it seems that you think you've never done anything wrong. so then, I suppose you're right.

I was born.... I had no choice..... It was given to me by our creator this I understand.... I have done wrong and will ask for his forgiveness...... if he would only admit....... or say to me...... ya know what OliverJ ........ maybe just maybe I was a little cruel or just made a few mistakes in the way things played out.... So please except my son as a sacrifice for your sins....... if that would be the case.... I would in a heart beat.

But there are no scriptures from our creator saying anything remotely to that effect. So , No I wont worship him or forgive him. No matter what the cost.

If in fact as I grow and learn as a person , and in time, maybe he will show me the way... I will follow. But for now........ Deist I remain. Altrusim leads my way...... Love to all...... not an ounce of hate left in my body...... Ive been hating for 38 years...anger sometimes ? yes.... frustration sometimes? yes... but hate ????? no more. Not ever. I even love our creator with all my heart...... but I cannot worship him. There is no reason to. And you know what?, he knows that as much as I do.

 

[Enigma'07]

I don't believe that you can love your creator with all your heart and not worshop him. God doesn't make mistakes, he is perfect. You ever warn a kid not to touch the stove, because you know it will burn him. You know he's going to do it any ways but do you turn the stove off the protect him, or do you allow him to burn himself so that he can learn from experiance. God is not cruel. Job loved God, and God allowed Satan to destroy Job's life, but you know what, Job learned alot, and in the end God blessed him even more than before. Oliver, God loves you! That is why he created you. Not to suffer, but so that you could enjoy life to the max because of his son.He loves you!