Wonderful Heaven

[okinrus]

That really doesn’t quite work. God clearly created Adam with the ability for good and bad, but as the myth goes, with freewill to choose between them.

This is untrue. Adam cannot do good without God.

So no Adam didn’t go against his created nature since his created nature included both good and bad.

His created nature did not include both good and bad, for God looked at his creation and said it was "good." Adam's nature was good, and Adam's free will was good, but this free will allowed Adam to disobey God. Yet when someone is filled with grace, he does not have to draw upon the Law to act properly but does so by nature. Hence Paul says that he is no longer under the law but above.

Besides being filled with original grace, Adam was created in a state of trusting God; he would otherwise not be good nor have grace. Adam broke this trust by disobeying God, by believing what the serpent said.

Overall, I think you are over-analyzing what the text says. If Adam had no knowledge of what obedience was, we may as well say that Adam had no knowledge of knowledge. For to have any knowledge at all, one must trust the source of the knowledge, though we aren't always conciously aware of this.

 

[Neildo]

"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

You still don't get what people are saying. Without having eaten the knowledable fruit, one wouldn't know the difference between anything. What is good? What is evil? You seem to think that because Adam was created a man, that he has all the past experiences that come with becoming a man which is not true. Experience and time is what makes a man yet Adam had none of that. He basically lived in a cave all his life called the Garden of Eden. He knew nothing else except what was going on there. So when god says if he eats the fruit, he will die, Adam does not know what death is. For all he knows, "die" means to be given cake. Yo Adam, don't eat from that tree or you will be given cake. That doesn't sound so bad, does it, so why shouldn't he eat from that tree?

Adam was a drone, plain and simple. Without having any past experiences or even knowledge of good and evil, as someone else said, everything is neutral to him. Now if he had all sorts of past experiences, knew what death was, or had knowledge of good and evil and then god told him not to eat from that tree, he probably wouldn't have. It was all plainly god's fault for not making a finished product. He created Adam with no knowledge so he's basically always left in a state of confusion. He doesn't know what bad is since his entire life was nothing but good. He doesn't know what death is since nobody ever died so when those words are said to him, it just goes in one ear and out the other because without that fruit, he can't compute those words. But again, this is all stuff people previously said so I doubt you'll comprehend it this time either.

- N

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

"..you must not eat from the tree.." is a f...... command. Deal with it you jackass.

Kat

 

[Cyperium]

You could still think without knowing good from evil.

You talk as if Adam and Eve knew nothing, just because they didn't know good from evil. Sure they knew that they had to follow Gods command, but it was after they had broken it that they knew good from evil. They should have trusted God.

 

[mustafhakofi]

SOUTHSTAR there is no such thing as a god, and when you grow up you will understand this.
If you have a believe, then you must have an open mind.
God and the devil are one and the same.
Reason: since the dawn of time, It(god) has been the cruelest and most callous creature
It has taken babies lives, men and women lives , for just speaking out of turn.
It has been stated that it’s a jealous(envy),angry(wrath),greedy(greed), god.
It sends men into battle to die ,and preaches thou shalt not kill. It orders you like sheep to do as it say’s, but not as does.
All this according to your bible.
Also every death caused by a natural disaster, has by all the courts, in the world been deemed an act of god.
So if you wish, to worship a mass murder, and something, that will not allow you to love your loved one in heaven.
Then, I for one feel very sorry for you.
But as there is no heaven, what does it matter.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

"..you must not eat from the tree.." is a f...... command. Deal with it you jackass.

Kat

"Do not eat from the tree" is a command.

"You must not eat from the tree, if you do you will die" is not a command.

It gives you an option of whether you want to die or not. If you want to die, eat from it. A command, as shown in the first example, does not give the recipient an option.

 

[§outh§tar]

SOUTHSTAR there is no such thing as a god, and when you grow up you will understand this.
If you have a believe, then you must have an open mind.
God and the devil are one and the same.
Reason: since the dawn of time, It(god) has been the cruelest and most callous creature
It has taken babies lives, men and women lives , for just speaking out of turn.
It has been stated that it’s a jealous(envy),angry(wrath),greedy(greed), god.
It sends men into battle to die ,and preaches thou shalt not kill. It orders you like sheep to do as it say’s, but not as does.
All this according to your bible.
Also every death caused by a natural disaster, has by all the courts, in the world been deemed an act of god.
So if you wish, to worship a mass murder, and something, that will not allow you to love your loved one in heaven.
Then, I for one feel very sorry for you.
But as there is no heaven, what does it matter.

God is not within the limits of "good and evil". It is man who uses those adjectives to interpret or whatever. That is the reason why 'one man's meat is another man's poison.'

Tell me this then, before man was created, was God good or evil? Obviously neither since man is the one who used these adjectives and therefore God can not and must not be placed under such labels for these reasons. If God tells us He is a jealous God, it is because that is the most appropriate/best adjective we as humans have.

After all, if there was no concept of evil, you would call Him good.

 

[OliverJ]

If you come to heaven, then I think you will feel a great sorrow for those that got to hell, be it your family or a stranger.

I havent read after I saw this , so maybe it was said......... What sorrow??? , theres no sorrow in Heaven....... I love the post that started this topic, excellent post!! I'll read all of it when I got time, ,, excuse me for butting in like this..... But I will read it...cant wait acutally.

 

[invert_nexus]

"You must not eat from the tree, if you do you will die" is not a command.

Ok, let's go with the "not a command" theory. Works for me. So this way, Adam didn't commit a sin by eating the fruit. The point still stands, he doesn't know what to die is. As someone's said before it might mean cake... Then again, Adam probably doesn't even know what cake is at this point. He was given a choice which he did not understand and when confronted with someone wiser than he (the serpent), he took the wiser persons advice (after all, god gave him little advice and the serpernt was much more eloquent in his speech). But, as it has been said, this is exactly what god wanted to happen.

On the command issue (personally, I'd rather it wasn't a command, but get real... it was), why did god punish Adam so severely afterwards if it wasn't a command? Why did he curse the serpent afterwards if it wasn't a command? Why did god just not allow Adam to die like he promised rather than kicking him out of Eden. It's entirely possible that god's words might have had more effect had he taken Adam to the edge of Eden and showed him the wasteland he would be thrust into should he eat the fruit. Then again, Adam has never known hunger or toil, so it probably would have had no effect either.

 

[§outh§tar]

Ok, let's go with the "not a command" theory. Works for me. So this way, Adam didn't commit a sin by eating the fruit. The point still stands, he doesn't know what to die is. As someone's said before it might mean cake... Then again, Adam probably doesn't even know what cake is at this point.

He was given a choice which he did not understand and when confronted with someone wiser than he (the serpent), he took the wiser persons advice (after all, god gave him little advice and the serpernt was much more eloquent in his speech). But, as it has been said, this is exactly what god wanted to happen.

Even if it was as you say, how on earth is that God's fault? It was Eve, not God, who took the serpent's advice, remember? This is also where your argument falters because Adam listened to Eve, not the serpent. Will you also say Eve's speech was more "eloquent"? In that case, it would again be Adam, not God, who was heeding her advice.

On the command issue (personally, I'd rather it wasn't a command, but get real... it was), why did god punish Adam so severely afterwards if it wasn't a command?

How can it not be a command after what I've shown? If it isn't I'd prefer not to be in the dark about it, so show me using my reply how I am wrong please.

Why did he curse the serpent afterwards if it wasn't a command? Why did god just not allow Adam to die like he promised rather than kicking him out of Eden. It's entirely possible that god's words might have had more effect had he taken Adam to the edge of Eden and showed him the wasteland he would be thrust into should he eat the fruit. Then again, Adam has never known hunger or toil, so it probably would have had no effect either.

There was no wasteland, remember human beings have polluted the earth and destroyed it, not God. As for why God cursed the serpent, you should probably look to the Job scenario. God therefore ALLOWED the serpent to try to entice Adam. And again, LOOK at Job's scenario before you accuse Him of being unfair. I dont' want to explain it here lest we digress but if you have any questions I can answer..

 

[invert_nexus]

Even if it was as you say, how on earth is that God's fault? It was Eve, not God, who took the serpent's advice, remember?

Yes, but Eve listened to the serpent. Everything said about Adam goes for Eve as well. Once she ate the fruit, she was easily able to convince Adam. She just had to parrot what the serpent had said to her to get her to eat. This is one of those hebrew twists to the myth that shows their patriarchal nature. Eve the root of sin. Better get her a burka... (and before you say it, I know that burka's are not hebrew...)

How can it not be a command after what I've shown?

Now, what the hell? Now you're saying it was a command? Just a couple of post's back you plainly said that it wasn't a command. That it was a choice that was offered. Personally, I think it was a command. But, either way it's still the same issue. The consequences of either making the wrong choice or breaking a command were not fully comprehended.

There was no wasteland, remember human beings have polluted the earth and destroyed it, not God.

Well, first of all, anyplace would seem a desert when compared with eden.

And next, Genesis 3-17, "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you and you shall eat of the herbs of the field." Who cursed the earth?

By the way, speaking of the serpent and the interloper in Job, it's not at all clear that these are the same beings. In fact, it kinda says that they're not. The interloper is walking around while the serpent is cursed to go upon his belly. It is common christian tradition to make the serpent satan, but the actual reading of the myth says different. In fact, Satan is hardly mentioned in the old testament. It isn't until christians and the myth of eternal life through christ arises that satan becomes so prominent.

 

[mustafhakofi]

God is not within the limits of "good and evil". It is man who uses those adjectives to interpret or whatever. That is the reason why 'one man's meat is another man's poison.'

of course it is, because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.
which also brings us back to adam and eve, and the tree of good and evil.

Tell me this then, before man was created, was God good or evil? Obviously neither since man is the one who used these adjectives and therefore God can not and must not be placed under such labels for these reasons.

where did man learn these words if it was not from his god, it is because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.

If God tells us He is a jealous God, it is because that is the most appropriate/best adjective we as humans have.

of course it is, because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.

After all, if there was no concept of evil, you would call Him good.

there was no concept, until it commanded adam in the garden of eden. read your own bible?.

 

[Neildo]

Even if it was as you say, how on earth is that God's fault?

Because Adam and Eve were children trapped in adult bodies. Whenever a child does something wrong, it is the parent's fault because they did not educate that child as to why doing something is bad for them to not do it. God can tell Adam and Eve not to do many things because [insert reason] but how are they supposed to know what that reason means? Remember, just having God tell them that they will die doesn't mean anything because they don't know what death is. God made a faulty uneducated product. He wanted them to be mindless drone slaves for his pleasure. If he would have at least given them a bit more knowledge, then they would have known better not to eat from the fruit, but he didn't because he knows knowledge is a threat for now that Adam and Eve have knowledge of good and evil, they know God for what he is with their newfound knowledge. Knowledge as a threat, now I know why religious people see science as a threat as well.

- N

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

To command or not to command?

But let’s ask a higher power; perhaps you will take God’s word for it instead of mine.

Genesis 3:11 …Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat.

Looks like God thought it was a command. I suggest you go argue with him instead of me.

Kat

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

To command or not to command?

But let’s ask a higher power; perhaps you will take God’s word for it instead of mine.

Genesis 3:11 …Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat.

Looks like God thought it was a command. I suggest you go argue with him instead of me.

Kat

Again, you are looking at the translation, which is dubious when you actually take a look at the text itself which does NOT at all imply a command.

Besides, I'm not allowed to argue with God.

 

[§outh§tar]

of course it is, because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.
which also brings us back to adam and eve, and the tree of good and evil.

where did man learn these words if it was not from his god, it is because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.
of course it is, because man wrote the bible, from the word's of god.


there was no concept, until it commanded adam in the garden of eden. read your own bible?.

Are you insinuating that the "purely" historic accounts found in the Bible were dictated by the Spirit?

Luke 3
1In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas,

Look at the amazing detail given to historical events here, you are therefore implying that this text was dictated by God to man.

 

[Michael]

I think I see it quite clearly; God wanted Adam and Eve to make a moral decision. That decision being to either (A) eat of the tree (this being BAD decision) OR (B) not to eat from the tree (this being a GOOD decision).

However, without the knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve did not have ANY choice but TO eat the fruit - this being because only after eating the fruit could they realize that eating the fruit (going against God's will/command or even the threat of dying) was a wrong thing to do!

This makes sense as later mankind/US (which of course had no choice in the matter) was condemned for something Adam/Eve had no real choice in either!

Sounds about like God to me

Really though, the story goes along with the rest of the Bible which is that "You should do as God tells you to do regardless" – even if God tells you to commit a sin you should go ahead and do it (say like killing). This makes perfect sense in light of the religious authority being closest to knowing God’s will and so when they say to hand over your little son for a quick military adventure or your wife for the betterment of a Kings pleasure – well you do it.

Regardless, we should be happy that Adam and Eve made such an honorable choice! Thanks to their courage (to leave the comforts of a meaningless garden of instinct) we now live in the wider and significantly more satisfying world of self-awareness!

Go Eve!

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

Again, you are looking at the translation,

What are you looking at then?

which is dubious

Why?

when you actually take a look at the text itself which does NOT at all imply a command.

What text are you talking about if it isn't the bible?

Give a reference then to this alleged text that shows that God did not command Adam to not eat the fruit.

And then if it wasn't a command then Adam could not have disobeyed God and his action could not have been a sin, in which case why was he punished?

Kat

 

[Neildo]

God is not within the limits of "good and evil". It is man who uses those adjectives to interpret or whatever.

Tell me this then, before man was created, was God good or evil? Obviously neither since man is the one who used these adjectives and therefore God can not and must not be placed under such labels for these reasons.

God was always within limits of good and evil to those that posessed knowledge and enlightenment. It's just that Adam and Eve did not know the difference because they were created to be ingnorant without having yet eaten from the tree of knowledge. It isn't man who uses adjectives such as good and evil but rather those that are enlightened and possess the knowledge of good and evil. Only now because we have the knowledge of the gods are we able to see God for what he really is. Ignorance is bliss but I'm glad that Satan gave us that wake-up call because now we're gods with an intellect unlike any living creature on Earth. And when you think about it, who is the greedy one here? God for wanting his knowledable power to remain with a select few or Satan for wanting everyone to be the same?

- N

 

[§outh§tar]

God was always within limits of good and evil to those that posessed knowledge and enlightenment. It's just that Adam and Eve did not know the difference because they were created to be ingnorant without having yet eaten from the tree of knowledge. It isn't man who uses adjectives such as good and evil but rather those that are enlightened and possess the knowledge of good and evil. Only now because we have the knowledge of the gods are we able to see God for what he really is. Ignorance is bliss but I'm glad that Satan gave us that wake-up call because now we're gods with an intellect unlike any living creature on Earth. And when you think about it, who is the greedy one here? God for wanting his knowledable power to remain with a select few or Satan for wanting everyone to be the same?

- N

Satan actually wants to rule you. And Satan didn't do us a favor by bringing sorrow our way either. In this case, the "bad" outways the "good" he brought us. One more thing, ignorant people use "good" and "bad" all the time and you worry me if you say we are "enlightened" enough to be like gods. gods dont progress intellectually, do they? I think you should write a book.