With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[stretched]

Yo SouthStar,

A wonderfully reflective and lucid post, and an achingly difficult time for you. I greatly admire your honesty and your courage. You are a great example of a fine human being.
My wish for you is to find the peace and serenity that this beautiful universe has to offer. I have found so much ineffable beauty and warmth in the universe and in sweet people that I have met, to recognise the fingerprint of a creative hand, which I am not obligated to understand. It is more than enough just to be. The beauty of where you stand at the present moment is that the world is now truly your oyster, and you can choose whatever path you desire, always with the understanding that you are entirely free to change your mind as you see fit.

Allcare.

 

[Jenyar]

SouthStar,

Considering that you believed earlier, "One without faith is one without hope. Humanity needs, requires faith," this is a very traumatic decision.

I want to reassure you that your feeling about possible rejection by people that were close to you before, are not necessarily justified. Just like there are people who rejected you before you let go of your faith and are now willing to be your best friends, there will be people who won't let your doubt separate you from them. Your parents might be shocked, but if they are any parents at all, they will not reject you.

An ex-Christian is not an ex-child. You can't be disowned. You can only run. Maybe you feel they "should" reject you now, just like you feel God "should" reject you now, but fortunately parents, don't always let themselves be decided by what they're children think "should" happen. Not if they love them, and God certainly doesn't reject you now that you need Him most.

Nobody ever believed God "should" care about them - and yet He came to them nontheless. He didn't wait until they stopped doubting, or stopped fighting Him. He simply asked them to have faith in spite of their doubts. Israel fought with God violently. He walked with a limp after that, but God certainly didn't send Him to hell for it.

What do you think Joseph thought when his brothers threw him into a well and left him for dead, or when he was sold to slave traders and Egyptians? Do you think he felt closer to God than ever? Did he thank God for these events, or did he ask "why!?"

What you believe now doesn't change who you were before. You didn't suddenly became evil, or are now more a sinner than you were previously. And you weren't any closer to salvation then than you are now, because it doesn't depend on you. Your faith didn't depend on ignorance, rejection of reason or some act of dishonesty that you have decided now to shed. It never will depend on you. What you must do is be true to yourself, to the force of what you know is right, just and praiseworthy. Of course I cannot justify why you "must" do anything, but you do feel that "must" yourself, or you would not have asked the questions you ask now, or doubted your faith at all.

You seem to feel an obligation to be honest, and you feel at the moment that this obligation is greater than even religion could make it, that it overrides faith. But consider the fact that you are still affirming your belief in honesty - as you indeed must have affirmed it before - only in the name of Reason now. You have discovered what religion is about, but you think it is separate from what God or reason is about, and it isn't. You'll find no scientific study to prove why you must be honest to yourself, no convincing argument that proves that "honesty is the best policy". You still believe that it carries any real weight by faith, as you did before.

It is that faith you must cling to. Only if you trade honesty for dishonesty, morality for immorality, or life for death, do you have reason to worry. Not because you may not worry, but because you have no reason to worry. It is those qualities that God will use to reveal himself to you, and others, anew. God has not rejected you because you're not sure how to know Him anymore. God does not reserve his love as people would, or give as people would.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.​

 

[Jenyar]

Yes, hmmm . . .

Maybe we're not so bad after all.

Maybe nobody is as bad as we thought they were after all. SouthStar wasn't an insane delusional before who suddenly became sane (unless you believe in the miraculous ). He was a human being and still is that same human being. We all discover how our choices influence our lives as human beings, and that's what this is about, and will ultimately be about.

 

[Halcyon]

Kind of hard to be optimistic, when there is nothing to look forward to..

Of course there is! We have this life to live. Look forward to the next day, the next experience...

well I had better start living my life to it's fullest potential but I shan't give up hope (just yet). Also one question, why haven't you given up hope all this time?

Because I have a LOT that I want to do with my life, many things to accomplish. I feel that even if I do not succeed in my goals, then my efforts will have aided someone to succeed in theirs, and that if the world has seen even a little bit of benefit from my having lived then my life was not wasted and that I have helped my species take another step forward.

If the Bible can certainly not be inerrant as they claim, then how can you believe in any part of it at all?

I personally believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I don't believe the words put in his mouth by religion. Jesus preached a better way of living, and I feel that was his true message and goal. I feel that his message is a good path to walk. For me at least.

I have talked to a few Christians who agree that the Bible does actually have mistakes in it but say that the point is it's moral message centered on Christ is still valid. But I ask, if Christ was supportive of erroneous religious texts, then how can we expect Him to be divine

There's absolutely no reason to consider him divine.

 

[what768]

what768, I know you mean well but do try not to avoid my comments..

Telling a lie to a boy about to die is much different from God telling a lie about the Bible, I think you would agree. First of all, the latter pertains to one's eternal salvation and therefore "misleading" people will mostly get them to hell.

Besides, if Jesus approved of the Old Testament knowing full well that it was false and that even His disciples would draw from it's content afterwards, then He would have known that whatever they were going to quote is false in the first place. Consequently, since prophecies in the Old Testament cannot then pertain to Jesus since they are false, Jesus cannot be the Christ.

Hebrews 6:18
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

So either that means that Jesus cannot be God since He lied about the veracity of the OT or that God actually does lie. It can only be one, which is it?

I'm not avoiding your comments, I just can't answer them because they are not included in my belief. God never tells lies, but men do and the Bible is written by men, yet inspired by God. This way there are things which are false, but those who have ears will easily hear what things are true. They're all true, even the lies are true - true lies, that's what they are.

Do you think "religion" is the only way to truth? Man is the temple of God, as said in the Bible, this way the truth is inside him, and when he knows himself, he knows the truth and God.

This is what "I" believe, it is not your truth. It does not matter if it is The truth either, because mans own truth is what matters at the moment.

 

[Jenyar]

I personally believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I don't believe the words put in his mouth by religion. Jesus preached a better way of living, and I feel that was his true message and goal. I feel that his message is a good path to walk. For me at least.

As CS Lewis said: What Jesus (whoever you "feel" him to be) said, if true, is of utmost importance, and if false, is of no importance. What it cannot be, is of moderate importance.

Just one more point: What Jesus acknowledged was God's work - what He didn't approve of is what man had done with it. Religious texts, whatever else they are, are not examples of God's perfection imposed on us - to believe that is nothing less than to impose our imperfections on God. What they are, is examples of how lives are influenced when God's will intrudes into our world: how we react to God, and how we consequently order our lives in response. These responses to God's call and commands are as stubborn, faltering, paradoxical, controversial and human as would be expected under any circumstances... but what is undeniable is God's recognition of our efforts - His artistic use of material He created. Not "flawed" in His eyes (flawed by what standards?), not "perfect" either (perfect by whose standards?), but good. And considering that "only God is good", that is the highest praise we or anything else could ever wish to receive.

 

[mustafhakofi]

Southstar at first, I was a little bit unsure of your intentions but having read the whole thread (phew).
I believe you to be honest, and sincere. my feelings are with you, they are the same as the rest of the atheists on this forum,( it 's my laziness, just did not want to right the same stuff, you've already read) however one thing I'd like to say is, has anything really changed other then your conviction to god. Ie: is the girl who you said was your best friend, and the girl you fancied, any less beautiful, is the sun any less warmer, does music and laughter elate you any less, yes it's a big change but it's only a small change compered to the beauty and magitude that is.
life is too beautiful, to be sad , here's an old cliche "smile and the whole world smiles with you"

 

[robtex]

Southstar,

I printed your thread out yesterday when there were maybe 10 replies on it and read it at work. It brought tears to the corners of my eyes. I was about to private messaging you earlier last week and tell you I thought you were a pretty cool guy cause I thougth about all the battleling you were doing on these boards but procastanated and did not do it. I wondered before why you stayed on a board that had such a strong population that was not congruent with the Christian faith. I am glad you were searching and I am so very happy at where you are today. I have so much respect for you right now to step up and admit what is in front of your eyes instead of what your community tells you to see. What you are doing is amazing and you are a strong person for duing so.

I am not going to give you advice cause 1) you are up to your ears in it, and from such good sources, 2) I am not athiest and you asked for athiest opinions. But I do want to say that it is ok not to know everything or even most things spirtual. It is better not to have the answers and just know the questions than to have the wrong answers and live by them anyway. If you do decided to read non christian texts will you please from time to time tell us what you read via threads and what you learned and gained from it? I wish you well in your spritual journey and am filled with joy in the direction you are going.

 

[Xev]

Pascal's wager

It ought to be realized that Pascal himself did not take the Wager as truth. It was a last resort he used when he found himself unable to justify Christianity on a logical basis.

It is a mark of how desperate Pascal became that he used a reasoning so contrary to the spirit of the Enlightenment. Pascal's wager fails on points of logic, but most importantly it fails in humanity.

If SouthStar comes to his conclusion using his natural faculty of reason, why should any rational being punish him for his conclusions? There's no guarentee that SouthStar's former God is rational, however, this would make duty to God a matter of submission to an arbitrary and irrational Power.

I need only point to the twentieth century to show how intellectually profane and morally outragous such a course would be. It is the sacrifice of mind and self to the greater organism, it is the sacrifice of reason to arbitrary power and the praise of irrationality which lead to Nazism, fascism in Russia and China, mass murder in countries ranging from Germany to Cambodia.

Adherence to a belief that requires these things should revolt the mind and instincts of any free man.

 

[robtex]

SouthStar,
An ex-Christian is not an ex-child. You can't be disowned. You can only run. [/indent]

A lot of people run from Christanity--full speed. Did you ever stop to think why that was? And why do you feel the need to hunt them down and chase them? If your religion is so pure, rightous and good trust me Southstar and rest will come back. If not.........

 

[SkippingStones]

Southstar,
On a beautiful day, go and sit alone outside somewhere and just be. Look at yourself and think 'this is me'. THAT is the 'reason' for living. Think about what it means to just be alive, to exist. Let go of words, of logical thoughts, just be...

 

[Godless]

It is the sacrifice of mind and self to the greater organism, it is the sacrifice of reason to arbitrary power and the praise of irrationality which lead to Nazism, fascism in Russia and China, mass murder in countries ranging from Germany to Cambodia.

Damn Xev!! you've never seised to amaze me, I'm in so much agreement with the above statement. So true, so true.

The above is why I claim that mysticism is so much deeper than just theological claims of gods, and religious dogma. Mysticism is the giving up "reason" for the power of arbitary irrationality. Hence in statism the power of the state, replaces the concept of god.

Godless.

 

[Jenyar]

A lot of people run from Christanity--full speed. Did you ever stop to think why that was? And why do you feel the need to hunt them down and chase them? If your religion is so pure, rightous and good trust me Southstar and rest will come back. If not.........

The attraction should be towards God, not religion. Many celebrities adhere to a kind of popular Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) because it's attractive to their spiritual side. Does that bring them in any meaningful relationship with God? A lot of people are running from a very many things, Christianity and Christians are just a few of these fear factors. They're running from impurity and perceived irrationality, and judging by some of SouthStar's comments, he had reason to flee his beliefs - they don't agree with mine either. But the very fact that they consider those things are so repugnant says that they are not necessarily running from God - only a distorted vision of him. The claim that faith is irrational tries to justify rationalism, which has a lot to answer for itself. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of reason, which just emphasized the little admitted fact that reason is subject to will, and will often acts irrationally and contradictory.

That's quite different from someone who doesn't want to believe in God because He requires accountability for things they do not wish to be held accountable for. They are hunted by their conscience, not by Christians, least of all me. People seeking to justify themselves or lifestyles that are incompatible with God's will, are fleeing from justice and from the God of justice. They are those who know love, but are inconsistent with its application and in denial of its requirements. Love and honesty are definitely not incompatible with God's will - in fact He requires it - and contrary to popular belief neither is doubt. Unfortunately, no decision can remove God from existence, or a person from accountability. SouthStar said he still has hope. Where do you think this hope comes from? From his new-found realism?

 

[Jenyar]

The above is why I claim that mysticism is so much deeper than just theological claims of gods, and religious dogma. Mysticism is the giving up "reason" for the power of arbitary irrationality. Hence in statism the power of the state, replaces the concept of god.

True, which is why all man's activities - including religion and so-called mysticism, including also reason and ambition - must be obedient to love. And love, while sometimes irrationally tenatious, is never "arbitrary".

If this is not so, if reason reigns superior over even love, then you have simply replaced one dogma for another. Then it's not the ideal, but the "more superior" logic that prevails. Because, dear Xev, in countries like the DRC, the reasonability of scientifically backed doctrines like survival of the fittest and genetic purity can only give weight to the prevailing egotism, intolerance and hatred, unless those kinds of "reason" is likewise checked.

 

[Xev]

Godless:

The above is why I claim that mysticism is so much deeper than just theological claims of gods, and religious dogma. Mysticism is the giving up "reason" for the power of arbitary irrationality. Hence in statism the power of the state, replaces the concept of god.

I don't quite agree with your condemnation of mysticism, but I do agree on statism.

There are mystic states involving the transcendance of reason and the ecstacy of arbitrary power. The Norse called it "wotanaz", a state of destructive frenzy in which one was "seized" by the God Othin. I have no objection to an individual seeking mystic states such as these. However, they must be restricted to the worthy.

Reason and power, even reason and mysticism, are not opposites. But when a nation takes to mysticism, when an individual denies rationality and surrenders his self and mind to the greater organism of the state, only fascism and only pain can result.

However, most individuals are irrational and unworthy, simple creatures who heil Hitler, denounce their Hutu neighbours, burn witches and follow the state into war without thinking. You cannot make men more rational, you can only hope to create a form of government in which the irrational masses are limited in their power to do harm.

Substitute "God" for the State any time you like, the difference is only that of the Inquisition and the Third Reich, respectively.

Jenyar:

If this is not so, if reason reigns superior over even love, then you have simply replaced one dogma for another. Then it's not the ideal, but the "more superior" logic that prevails. Because, dear Xev, in countries like the DRC, the reasonability of scientifically backed doctrines like survival of the fittest and genetic purity can only give weight to the prevailing egotism, intolerance and hatred, unless those kinds of "reason" is likewise checked.

There is a difference between being a reasonable person and being a follower of the ideal of "reason".

Humans are emotional and passionate animals. We are also, from time to time, rational animals. To wholly deny either is to deny the inheritance, and what I think is the nobility, of our species.

To be wholly engrossed in any idea - whether it be reason, mysticism, power or love - is to be a slave to that idea.

And to nitpick, genetic "purity" is not a scientifically valid idea.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Jenyar, there is no need to bring confusion to SouthStar at this point. You had your chance to convince him that Christianity was the true way, but you failed! It was quite obvious that none of the Christians on board offered him consolation until he mentioned it -- then you come out of the woodwork! You danced just a little too hard this time. Even the staunch Christian that SouthStar was when he came to sciforums, apparently even your dancing couldn't convince him that what you both believed was the truth. Leave him alone, now. He's in the process of healing, and you and your Christian compadres have failed miserably again. Do you know why? Because what YOU profess is NOT THE TRUTH! SouthStar is wise enough to see right through your dancing! You're like a strip-teaser for Christianity. Your sultry and provocative dance seduces the weakest ones. SouthStar is not weak. He is stronger than you, and your veiled dance to the tune of Christianity did not seduce him.

SouthStar knows who his true friends are. You weren't one of them. So goes Christianity down the tube.

 

[mis-t-highs]

southstar very interesting post, something i've found I'll like to share.

In one moment of rapture,
I was moved from
The ordinary of myself
To a being of
Otherness:
At one with a moonbeam,
The light of a star,
Blended with the dawn,
And birthed with the opening
Of a flower.

All of these and much more,
Yet the poor tools I have
Of words,
Now that moment has gone,
Cannot tell of this being:

All I can say, is that for
One heartbeat,
The voice of my soul
Echoed through Infinity:

And I said
I am.......
wynne bruce 1999

we are as one heartbeat in the scheme of things, so we make the best of it for all.

 

[water]

Medicine Woman,

You keep on saying how Jenyar dances and that he's good at it.
It takes two to tango, you know ...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

RosaMagika: Medicine Woman,

You keep on saying how Jenyar dances and that he's good at it.
It takes two to tango, you know ...
*************
M*W: Not if you're dancing to two different tunes. He tangos alone.

 

[okinrus]

We're supposed to treat everyone, whether Christian or Atheist, nice. I try to do this but comments made by M*W and others makes me think they are trying to take advantage of the situation, by making this off to be something it isn't.

When we have doubts about one particular aspect of our faith, we don't reject everything we've ever believed in. We go study for a year or more; we ask questions and read the works of highly knowledgeable Christians. We always doubt ourselves in such matters; we are never to doubt God.