With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[Athelwulf]

What is the point of aspiring then?

What is the point of going to college only to have a car accident end your life? Or hone basketball skills only to be paralyzed on the day of your first game?

It seems like life is now simply left to chance and luck instead of certain assurance in the future. There is no stake in the future since we have no hope in it.


Even if I was a good person all my life, when I died because some guy having a bad day decided to rob a store, all my work would be in vain. Sooner or later no one would remember me.

That's a pessimistic attitude. I understand that you feel vulnerable right now, but if you try to be optimistic, it will be better. Just please don't think everything we do in life is only in vain. That's a bad mindset! Be optimistic!

Doing a whole lot of evil deeds will not make a difference as oppoesd to doing good deeds because I simply will die one day and that will be the end. My legacy and efforts will be so irrelevant that people would forget me. The same way people will forget Hitler even as people are already forgetting Sept. 11th. I could be as evil and cruel as I bloody well pleased because I knew it would be of no concern to me after I lived. I would end up with all the 'good' people in the same earth, rotting flesh with worms living in me. This all seems to be futility to me.

It does too make a difference to be good! Even if Hitler ended up with the same fate as Ghandi, many curse Hitler and look up to Ghandi. You don't want to be evil and have people curse the fact that you existed! You want to be good and have people look up to you and strive to be more like you and wish there were more people like you! No one's legacy and efforts are irrelavent!

What do you think I should do? Should I pretend to my mother and church members that I am no longer a believer? I simply don't have the balls to tell them, to put it frankly. I am afraid they will treat me differently in a more condescending, pitying manner. I know it's probably a stupid fear but it's still something I can't overcome.

If you don't feel comfortable with telling people about this yet, that's perfectly okay. It is a personal matter. But the people you love should know sooner or later. Your mother may not approve of your decision, but she will still love you.

If ya don't have the balls to tell everyone, wait til ya do.

It's not a stupid fear. It's a perfectly valid fear. This is probably a fear of being shunned for rejecting your beliefs. No one wants to be rejected. It's an understandable fear.

Sorry guys that I can't answer all your replies quickly enough. I will sooner or later get to your reply.

No worries. I'm not in a rush or anything.

 

[§outh§tar]

I have a nice proposal! How 'bout we set aside a day to celebrate atheism and agnosticism! Just on SciForums. That way, §outh§tar will have a holiday. It doesn't have to be a day either. It can be a week out of every month, or a whole month. I vote yes. How 'bout you guys?

I vote yes to a whole month. September it shall be, to commemorate this month.




Oh, I feel such a sense of freedom that I feel afraid for myself!

 

[Athelwulf]

All the bad things he did are ultimately of no consequence in the grand scheme of things unless you make them out to be so. I suspect Hitler assumed his actions to be good instead of sinful. Regardless of what others thought he still did it because it was good to him. He died, he's gone and he still doesn't care what others think. This is why I say it's futility, it is ultimately between a man and his actions. What others think will not matter ultimately so what is the point of doing good?

He didn't use common sense. I think he knew full well that he was hurting people.

Even if he didn't, there's a bright side to Hitler. He's a perfect example of who not to be like! Just strive to be not like him, and you'll be going in the right direction.

Be kind and helpful to everyone on Earth, and you'll be nothing like Hitler! You can make that your reason to be good if you want. Just as long as you are good!

 

[Godless]

Oh!! man I can't believe it. I've have heard of it before others that have left their theist beliefs for the ranks of atheist in these here boards, however I've never read any converting post.

What meaning do you have in life?

To live, to profit and be happy, think of it Southstar, you don't need any authorities dictating to you how to live, how to be moral, morality is already part of your life, you've been brought up by religious morals. No one here can claim that religious text is completely illogical and that it does not teach a bit of moral values. It does, however the claims are outragious, it contradicts, and well basically is a work of art writen by men.

The feeling of emptiness that lies within me as I realize I have nothing to live for and basically nothing to do in the religion foum scares me.

The feeling of emptiness also was part of my conversion, I was Catholic, Christian, then last Babtist. It takes time, one does not come to the dessision overnight, quite a bit of thought goes through your mind to finally come out and claim your lack of faith. You will have many doubts if you still come together with religious friends, they will treat you as if you are sick or something, or just plain confused. Well you know you used this tactics.

§outh§tar's beliefs are now based on fears of eternal wrath from a God he can no longer believe in with a clear conscience.

Not only your fears, but of every other theist in the world. You've had got to come to the realiazation that FEAR is what the bible teaches. Love god, by the threat of damnation, this does not seem very logical, nor moral. But that's what it is, and one can't deny it.

The saddening part is that I cannot bear to even tell my Christian friends and especially my mother that I have removed myself from the faith, for fear of embarassment, shame and the way they will treat me.

What are your choices though? To be a closet atheist takes too much mental effort, you would be constantly lying to your family and friends, If they love you "really", they will love you regardless of your beliefs, "I'm the only atheist in my family" I don't wear my atheism on my shirt collar, nor do I always introduce myself as an atheist immidiately after meeting someone. I do sometimes attend church, with my girlfriend "just for company" makes her happy, and have given religious gifts to friends and family. I'm not militant athiest. Only on the forums.
My suggestion is don't loose respect for the ones you love, and try not to discuss religion with them. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions.
Living with me, my own mom has become a deist. She refuses to believe man's religion but she does believe in some supernatural force.

I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives?

On the question of morals, I suggest you pick up some of Ayn Rand's work, however controversial she is, she makes good points. i.e. (Man must choose his actions, values and goals by the standard of that which is proper to man--in order to achieve, maintain, fulfill and enjoy that ultimate value, that end in itself, which is his own life.) Ayn Rand.

Anyhow I hope this was not a "joke" as it has been fun kind of wathing you refute reason, for faith. And as always you found out reality requires "reason" in order to understand life.

Take it one day at a time.

Godless.

 

[Athelwulf]

I vote yes to a whole month. September it shall be, to commemorate this month.

I like the idea! Does anyone else like it? If so, then September shall be the SciForums-wide Atheist and Agnostic Pride Month!

 

[Godless]

I like the idea! Does anyone else like it? If so, then September shall be the SciForums-wide Atheist and Agnostic Pride Month!

Well got my vote.

Therefore is it not futile to try to be good if there is only going to be a temporal effect, one which you might not even live long enough to experience? If you have no assurance of reward for your good works when it is all over and done (like in heaven), then doesn't it become a hopeless endeavor to do good when no one will notice it while you live, and certainly no one notices it as time goes on after your death?

Mysticism comes in many forms Southstar, Though Hitler is thought to be a atheist, nothing can be further from the truth Hitler was a Christian this is why he had such hate for the Jews, (not that every Christian does) however he thought of them as scum, and he was infatuated by having an Arian race. Consider his actions as a human clensing.

To do good, is not only moral it makes you feel good, if you do harm, and are an asshole with friends and family, you will feel rotten. You do good so good can come your way. Just becouse you have left your "faith" does not mean you should go on and live an immoral life. For instance only .06% of the world population claims to be atheist or agnostic. Do you suppose that we are commiting all the crimes of the world?.

What is the point of aspiring then?

Aspire to be better, to bring value to your life and that of those around you. Secularly if you can, or by having respect for those that love you but happen to be theists.

What is the point of going to college only to have a car accident end your life? Or hone basketball skills only to be paralyzed on the day of your first game?

And what would be the benefit to have god for instance? if these things can happen. You've got false hope,thinking it wont just because you believe. You've get relief only momentarily or you feel quilt because you think god has punished you, bad things happen everyday to those who believe and to those that don't. Existence brings the bad and the good, it's all on how you act upon what life throws at you, for instance you've recently are trying to come to grips with a new realiazation, you are still fighting SouthStar. It's the reminisense of the religious foundation you have. It takes time to "reason" all things out.

Even if I was a good person all my life, when I died because some guy having a bad day decided to rob a store, all my work would be in vain. Sooner or later no one would remember me.

And? So what!. many people die worthless lives happen all the time SouthStar, it only should matter is to you and you alone, don't be living for others live foryourself, It would be unfortunate if something were to happen, to me, or you but for now I live for myself, not for the memories of others.

There is also my dilemma of what if I'm wrong, and there really is a hell. I surely don't want to spend eternity there and this frightens me enough that I am borderline and keep hoping there will be some divine revelation that reassures me and gives me some sort of hope.

These conserns are part of your departure, it takes time. And some quite a bit of reading, philosphy, psychology, understanding of yourself all over again, and setting priorities, for your own life. Now that you've got secularism in your mind.

It's a choice you've made one that some here will say is for the best, others will claim that you are going through a lot of stress, or are confused, it's only a choice. Don't be conserned with your old assertions, no one can prove the existence of another dimentions such as "heaven or hell". These are tools made to manipulate. To truly be free of them, you've got to accept your dession.

Doing a whole lot of evil deeds will not make a difference as oppoesd to doing good deeds because I simply will die one day and that will be the end. My legacy and efforts will be so irrelevant that people would forget me.

It should make a difference to you, remember its a choice, you have taken not a license to be evil, or that any good that you do for yourself, won't matter to you. The deeds that one does in life is for one self or that of his own family. Be selfish it's your life, do as you choose to do, don't worry about the consequences after you die, you seise to exist. Those that love you will remember you.
Why are you so conserned if you are forgotten? Look at the many millions of people that have existed before you, and have died, and no one even knows them, or remembers them unless they done something extraordinary.

If you want to be remembered do something extraordinary. I don't think I have to worry about you going out and doing an extremely evil act now do i?

Godless.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

----
And also a question to atheists in particular, to whom I have now joined ranks..:

What meaning do you have in life? I formerly believed myself to be pleasing God and furthering His kingdom (all part of the Christian jargon) and that I would one day be rewarded for all eternity. I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives? What solace and comfort do you have for life and what joy do you have in death? What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and calling"?

§outh§tar, this is probably one of the hardest moments in your life; however,
I want you to realize that this step you have taken is an extraordinary one.
You have demonstrated initiative, bravery, logic, and clairty of thought in a
manner that others may never be able to. This achievement has earned you
my respect and congratulations. If I could salute you I would.

I want to help answer some of the questions you had listed for atheists, and
please let me know if any additional clarification is needed.

Q: What meaning do you have in life?
A: Before I state my answer, I want to note that the meaning of anyone's
life is what they choose it to be and the choice may change throughout
someone's life. My current choice is to explore reality.

Q: What reasons do you give for living moral lives?
A: Most everyone (including myself) has alot of 'moral' influence coming from
religion; however, in examining my own 'morals' I have broken things down
to some behavioral basics. I like to engage in various behaviors that are
for the benefit of others and myself (mutual benefit); however, I also
on occasion like to engage in behaviors that are strictly for the benefit of
others and may come at a personal sacrifice (altruism). I do not like to
engage in behavior that has no intention other than to promote pain and
suffering of others simply for personal gain (extreme exploitation). I try
to align my actions to my likes and dislikes. I usually hit the target but
I do miss on occasion (nobody's perfect). The important part is that I can
see the target and I want to hit it.

Q: What solace and comfort do you have for life...
A: Friends, family, pets, imagination, exploration, science, art, music... etc.

Q: ...and what joy do you have in death?
A: As far as I am aware, conciousness ceases at death. There is no
joy, no pain, no emotion, no thought. People can experiencing living
and dying but not death.

Q: What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and
calling"?
A: Being happy.

 

[Godless]

BTW. Southstar notice all the athiest & agnostics comming to aid you through your difficult choice?.

You are not alone.

G.

 

[Neildo]

SouthStar, just so ya know, religion and spirituality are two seperate things. While you may no longer have faith in Christianity, it does not mean you no longer have to have faith in a God. Religion is merely a shared common belief about God and spirituality is rather an individual belief.

That's the problem I have with religion as a whole. It's people having the beliefs of another person's (the originating prophet) ideas and not their own. Because people follow a popular religion, they wind up stuck as you were with all the loopholes, inconsistancies, and all sorts of other rubbish that just did not make sense and would confuse you because it was someone else's ideas. Because you are now in control of yourself, you are able to fix all those problems you found.

You will now also be able to get more input about other's belief in God whether from another person or religion rather than having to be restricted to only Christianity. With this huge step you have taken, if anything, it has strengthened your bond with God because you will now become more knowledable about him/her/it taking information from everywhere, most importantly from within yourself. Continue believing in God. Leaving Christianity should not stop your belief in him/her/it.

Now that you're not restricted to only the Bible, if you want to continue learning or seeking God, I suggest reading the Hindu's Bhagavad-Gita. That's a real good spiritual book about God that is a hundred times better and more enlightening than the Bible. Also try reading some comparative religious books as well as it will point out all the good things from each religion as well as show their similarities. Houston Smith's The Religions of Man is another I'd reccommend.

As for having trouble seeing any reason to be a good person as opposed to taking the quick and easy life of being bad and how if there is no God, the bad are not punished, even if there is no God to punish them, depending on one's beliefs such as reincarnation, which I believe in, they can be punishing themselves if so. While Hitler did many bad things, if he's ever reincarnated as say, another German person, outsiders may continue to look down on him due to what happened or he could be born with no limbs whatsoever, unable to talk, or unable to see. As for Gandhi, if ever he's reincarnated as another Indian, because of the freedom movement he's done, his new Indian life will be much better due to his actions compared to the hard life he had in the past (well, hard life after leaving his lawyer life and moving to India, heh).

As others have said, life is what you make of it, and the same applies to the affects your actions have on others and yourself in another life. An example I use a lot, say you set off a nuclear war; your next life you may wind up as a mutant because of what you've done to the Earth and that life will suck. That's karma for ya, heh.

So yeah, now you're free. You're able to throw God, religion, spirituality, and all that out the window or you can still believe in all of that. You can choose to fine tweak a few minor details about Christianity and now have an altered version of Christianity, or you can incorperate the beliefs of many religions and/or peoples ideas, or you can come up with beliefs completely unique to your own. Whatever route you choose, good luck with it.

- N

 

[Neildo]

BTW. Southstar notice all the athiest & agnostics comming to aid you through your difficult choice?.

Yep, let's all join hands and sing Kumbaya.

Kumbayaaaaa my Loooooord.. err wait, are we allowed to use that word? (kidding!)

- N

 

[water]

South Star,


Oh. Let me give you a hug first.

I must say that I saw this change of yours coming. Esp. in the "I hate crying" and some other threads. There was a big gap in you, staring at me, and I had been frightened by it sometimes.

The saddening part is that I cannot bear to even tell my Christian friends and especially my mother that I have removed myself from the faith, for fear of embarassment, shame and the way they will treat me. What I find even more saddening is that they will not listen to what I say despite how clearly I convey it to them, they are zealous fundamentalists, even as I was. Even if I wanted to be a Christian (I would rather than not, we have holidays ) I can not, for despite my most passioned attempts to reconcile the contradictions and disagreements and dismiss the glaring truth that I have been brainwashed to not question and to obey like a "sheep", I simply cannot defend the Bible and Christianity without playing word games and carefully constructing unsound doctrine.

This is your test now. The test of your love.
Love is what you can always believe in.

The feeling of emptiness that lies within me as I realize I have nothing to live for and basically nothing to do in the religion foum scares me.

You live to love.

I think that you ought to stay at the forums.
Take it one step at a time.

The reason I say this with a heavy heart is because somewhere deep inside of me, I hope earnestly that my findings are wrong and that I will find solace in God.

Now is the time for you to be strong. Now is the time for you to be smarter, wiser, more loving, humbler, more consequent ... -- you will have to go your way, you will have to find your way.

Of course you can still find solace in God -- but not beacuse your findings were wrong. But because you will learn why those things that you have found are there.

It is just that the way you will see God will not be that same way as you have been used to see him.

 

[surenderer]

SouthStar,
I doubt that you will see many Christians or Muslims etc posting on this thread becasue most will ban or label you as going to Hell but me personally(even though I am Muslim) dont believe this. I believe that the Christian life isnt for anybody (like people who ask questions) nor do I believe that the Muslim life is for everyone (like people who DONT ask questions) but i dont think that people who choose an agnostic lifestyle are any worse than anyone else. I have many Agnostic friends and actually they are nicer than some of my Muslim or Christian friends. I believe they have the "spirit of God" in them even if they or I may not realize it. I guess what Im saying is that if one lives a caring generous lifestyle then thats what matters right?...... just keep love in your heart.....Thats God peace to you

 

[Cyperium]

----
Second, there are sincere apologists who, by trying to test the arguments for themselves (rather in the spirit of Luke 14:28-31, one might add), have unwittingly accustomed themselves to weighing arguments, not simply accepting things on faith. Having learned to take the unbeliever's side for the sake of argument (becoming one's own intellectual sparring partner), simple faith is no longer as easy as it once was. Doubt becomes a familiar habit, however miserable it makes one. Sooner or later the honest apologist winds up looking back nostalgically to the days of childlike naivete before he got into apologetics and apologetics made everything more complicated! He may realize the irony of his position: he has learned strategies for promoting saving faith, "simple faith," which however, have made it less and less possible for him to rest easy in such faith.

Worse yet, the longer one scrutinizes the apologetical arguments, the more one tests their merit in actual debate, the more holes one is brought inevitably to see. And, unless one feels able to descend to a level of complete cynicism in the interests of promoting faith (!), one simply cannot maintain one's own faith any longer. If, as you used to tell unbelievers, they ought to believe Christianity only insofar as it makes sense to do so, you realize the jig is up once it no longer makes sense to you. It is too late to fall for the old saw that "the foolishness of God is wiser than men."
-----

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/son.html


Comments

I am the Christian depicted in the quote. I can no longer honestly defend my faith and relinquish my all so glorious title, Defender of the Faith. After an objective inspection of the Bible, I can simply find no reason to believe either in it's historicity or theological claims. I can not in good faith deny my ability to reason and continue to believe in what other people have told me to believe. I have heard only one side of the story for all my life, so long so that I even spewed much of that garbage on these forums and was puzzled when I was ridiculed for my beliefs. At first, ignorantly believing that these disbelievers were simply minions of Satan, sent to rob me of my faith, I squeezed my advise to their objective counsel and assured myself that I would rather trust in God than in man. Despite my fervent efforts to disprove any arguments against my beloved Christ, I fatigued myself and sought to find out just why the heathen were so equally ardent in their denouncement of Jesus when all I saw when I opened the Bible was unparalleled truth and majesty.

There was a day when I borrowed some anti-Christian books and took them to Church to show my teachers. They rebuked me for taking these "heretical" writings and asked me whether or not I was having "doubts". As you all must know, having doubts in Christian circles about the faith is a definite no-no. Not only will the rest of the pack swoop down on your neck with pitying words for not believing but they might even (as has happened to me) threaten banishment from the Church for not believing what the majority believes.

The reason I say this with a heavy heart is because somewhere deep inside of me, I hope earnestly that my findings are wrong and that I will find solace in God. I have prayed dearly for some sort of revelation that would boost my faith and open my eyes to what are some obvious, irrefutable contradictions in the Bible. There is no question that the writers of the Bible thought that the Lord would return during their lifetime but He did not and has not. Two thousand years and all we have to show is persecution, strife and disagreement towards "fellow" Christians. The doctrines one must follow to be called a Christian have changed so often that I am sure that even by having entertained doubting thoughts, I disqualified my salvation.

The feeling of emptiness that lies within me as I realize I have nothing to live for and basically nothing to do in the religion foum scares me. I cling innocently to the last strands of hope fearing that if I severe ties altogether, I may be cast into hell fire for all eternity. So this is what it has come to. §outh§tar's beliefs are now based on fears of eternal wrath from a God he can no longer believe in with a clear conscience. The saddening part is that I cannot bear to even tell my Christian friends and especially my mother that I have removed myself from the faith, for fear of embarassment, shame and the way they will treat me. What I find even more saddening is that they will not listen to what I say despite how clearly I convey it to them, they are zealous fundamentalists, even as I was. Even if I wanted to be a Christian (I would rather than not, we have holidays ) I can not, for despite my most passioned attempts to reconcile the contradictions and disagreements and dismiss the glaring truth that I have been brainwashed to not question and to obey like a "sheep", I simply cannot defend the Bible and Christianity without playing word games and carefully constructing unsound doctrine.

This is my message to all Christians, especially those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible:

Believe not what you read from other Christians without testing it first for yourself. Do not think that you are right and that everyone else is simply misguided or (as I at times thought) demon possessed. (Might I mention, the demons of the Bible can not be true, even if they do exist.) PLEASE, DO SOME THINKING ON YOUR OWN. SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. I BEG YOU.

If Christians never read atheist books and they never read Buddhist, Muslim and other religious books, how can they ever think they have the truth? The ostrich whick hides in the sand all it's days soon finds that all other bird have sprouted wings.

And also a question to atheists in particular, to whom I have now joined ranks..:

What meaning do you have in life? I formerly believed myself to be pleasing God and furthering His kingdom (all part of the Christian jargon) and that I would one day be rewarded for all eternity. I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives? What solace and comfort do you have for life and what joy do you have in death? What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and calling"?

§outh§tar:

I'm sorry to hear that you lost your faith.

I'm with you in your struggle, I understand you cause I lost my faith also a long time ago, but now I have it back.

You have defended faith in these forums for a long time, you have heard arguments that most Christians wouldn't go near.

You have to understand what you are dealing with, evil can't be easily defeated by humans alone, evil is often stronger than us.

From what I can understand, you have attempted to give reasons to the atheists why their arguments are wrong, and to do that you have to see it through their eyes.

I said I understand you didn't I?

To see it through their eyes is to share their view.

To share their view is to accept that what they say is true.

(while in the background desperatly trying to remember your own view)

When you do this, you start to build a "logical faith", so that you describe your faith through their view. Cause you know that the truth must be the truth even for them and that there has to be arguments for them.

But this isn't faith, this is logic. You can't "build" your faith on arguments.

You have to pray to get your faith back.

God is beyond and above logic, beyond and above science.

God is hidden to us, so that we could have faith in Him, so that we could honestly do the right things even though "no one is looking".

Please consider what I've said, these are not empty words.

I will pray for you.

May God be with you.

Remember, Christians don't have to live a totally rightous life to be Christians. You are Christian in your heart. Don't be afraid. Fear is not in Gods nature.

 

[fadeaway humper]

I guess what I am saying is it seems ultimately futile to live a moral life if the results are going to be so meagre and temporal. Aspiring for eternity seemed more promising a prospect for me.

It surely would seem so, if you are a selfish, egocentric bastard. Unless you discard this reward-oriented mindset, you are probably going to live a pretty miserable life, and make others miserable in the process. Once you learn to value the "meagre and temporal results" of a moral life for what they are really worth, you'll have all the tools you need for a happy existence.

If you can't do that, I recommend you spare us all the trouble and go back to believing in the punishing/rewarding deity of your choice. Maybe the world needs more atheists, but it sure as hell doesn't need more nihilists.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, but after reading all the sugary (if well-meaning) responses you've got, it seemed that you needed a little sense slapped into you.

 

[Xev]

Wow, I never thought I'd see such a thing as a Christian become athiest.

SoulthStar:

Athiesm is not a system or a structure of beliefs. Athiesm is simply the individual negation of the idea "God".
It has no moral component.

Now your question of the "meaning of life" is rather meaningless. It's a question of language, not of philosophy, and can't really be solved by logical-philosophical methods.
How could you resolve a word like "meaning"? As "function" or "purpose", correct?
Now the only "function" of life is to produce other life. But even this is a blind expression of will, and there is no "purpose" to it.
You could also ask, in a moral sense, what the "purpose" of life is. Then you will get varied answers - having power, being happy, doing-good, becoming famous through your deeds, loving or serving some ideal.
While all these things have a common feature, they only say what the person answering the question considers most valuable. They say nothing of purpose - for life would still be, and was long before, people decided that the purpose of life was to live in a certain way.

The question is meaningless.
Life simply is, and the problem of life's meaning can only be addressed to those who find life problematic.

Now to morality -

Again, "why be moral" is a non-question. We are given this vauge term "moral" and asked to resolve it in a concrete manner.
This is why those who try to answer the question - like Kant - generally first try to resolve what morality is.
But after thousands of years of trying to resolve this question, nobody has ever adequetely defined morality. They simply assert "morality is this or that" and (hopefully) explain why they make this assertion.

"Morality" is an ill-applied word that generally refers to the user's customs. Yet ethics is not yet ready to be discarded.

We do see something like Kantian "moral laws" when we observe even the most dissimular cultures. Even those that have wildly different ethical customs do at least have ethical customs. What would explain this very general existence of ethical rules? The general trend of western philosophy has been to attribute them to a metaphysical "idea" or "form" of ethics - whether Plato's "good", Aquinas' "God" or Kant's "universal principle". But this is to introduce a term that we cannot solve through philosophical method.

What could explain these? Instinct.

It is instinct that drives us to murder and to condemn murder, to thieve and to hold inviolate the property of our friends. Instinct gives us a general sense of ethics - culture reifies that sense and gives it form.

Both the "meaning of life" and the "meaning of ethics" are blind alleys in philosophy, non-questions that have distracted many a powerful mind in the attempt to resolve them.

 

[MacM]

SouthStar,

Excellent post. Absolutely excellent. Before making my comments I want to sahre with you that I was once at the age of 17 babtized. I have written and at one point actually incrporated my own church "Deist Orthogonal Church". I and one friend of mine became ordained (via a legal but highly questionable process at the cost of $20.00).

During this process I became educated (schooled) in the sciences and soon became concerned with my considered position up to that point. I poured over any and all books of religion and found each lacking and flawed in the same regard.

From that I have taken a very stearn anti-religion stand.

I know that probably doesn't ease your discomfort nor grant you peace of mind about the overall issue and its meaning.

However, let me add the fjollowing:

To atheist: There simply is and cannot be any "Proof" that there is no God. What we have is proof that God as depicted in formal religions is demeaning to any true God that could possibly be credited to have created ALL.

More importantly, we come to learn that at best what we think we know via science, testing and evidence rationally considered is that should there be only a God and miracle accountable for our existance, is that we now understand more about his works and methods.

God shall forever, I think be an acceptable term to supplement our ignorance but we should never become so arrogant to assume we know and understand the mind of God and/or his plans.

We should feel joy in that we as a species have reached a level of critical analysis and that we evolve so as to advance our kind by being civilized and by living in a manner that incorporate those good qualities of religions which we have learned to dispise and distrust. that is be kind and positive and help others to advance. Be proud to move our species forward for our siblings and future mankind.

To do otherwise reduces us to mere "Cunning" and selfish animals vs an intelligent species.

As the Bible says we are to reproduce and inhabit the universe. Let us simply concentrate on doing that without concern as to what God is or is not and learn and apply what we learn for good of humanity.

That to me is a far more meaningful purpose for our lives than to praise what is advocated in religions; which is a psychotic and cruel God if you look past the propaganda and double entante riddles of religious teachings.

Understand there be no actual inherent purpose to our existance. That leaves us to develope our own purpose.

It should be altrustic and advance our species, not ethnocentric based on some hypotheical God and a system of reward and punishment for believing in him. That seems to place and have no value for creation what-so-ever.

 

[§outh§tar]

Before I go on to personally reply to posts, I just want to ask these to the atheists/agnostics who have replied:


Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity? The very possibility that they might be right when they say there is a hell, despite the lack of evidence is something that bothers me..

 

[§outh§tar]

@ MacM


Thank you for your many kind words. I do understand that there is certain (personal) benefit in advancing humanity for the common good but it really boils down to will it ultimately matter? Is temporal reward so great a prospect that we are forced to conform to societal values? It seemed much more comforting to me when I was under the impression that my efforts on earth would be rewarded for all eternity in heaven. Now that it seems I can only enjoy life depending on how easy/hard I have it, now that I do not know what God to trust in during hard times, it seems that life is left to chance and circumstance; factors beyond our control dictate the course of our lives and our only escape is in death, which is also inevitable and beyond our control. Does this too not seem to be futile? If we will have no rememberance of the earth when we die and it's over once and for all after then, it appears to me that we might as well fulfill every sinful desire we can ever have since this is the only chance we get. Not that I plan on doing so or anything..

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar, the more good that you do, the more your heart will be uplifted. The more you pray, the more hope you will have, and the more hope you have, the more good you will be able to do.

The way you speak of your church mkaes me think you ought to spend a little time away from there.

Baptist churches, and I quote, "follow the Bible and the teachings of Jesus most closely".


Before making this announcement, I really and honestly did pray to God. I felt that if I was truly saved, He would not suffer me to be removed from His presence and that He would supplement my faith and understanding so that I could reconcile the contradictions in the Bible and my trust in Him be restored. Unfortunately, the more of an objective view I took on the Bible, the less credible it all seemed and I could finally not in good conscience admit to being a Christian when I was filled with such doubt.

 

[spidergoat]

Halleluyah, South Star is free! Maybe now you can discover God without all those stupid ideas we inherited getting in the way.