With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

Athelwulf said:
That's a pessimistic attitude. I understand that you feel vulnerable right now, but if you try to be optimistic, it will be better. Just please don't think everything we do in life is only in vain. That's a bad mindset! Be optimistic!

Now that I shan't be going to heaven, it is a bit hard to be optimistic.. :(

It does too make a difference to be good! Even if Hitler ended up with the same fate as Ghandi, many curse Hitler and look up to Ghandi. You don't want to be evil and have people curse the fact that you existed! You want to be good and have people look up to you and strive to be more like you and wish there were more people like you! No one's legacy and efforts are irrelavent!

Note, by referring to Hiter, I am not saying be "evil".

I am only saying that is it not possible to be a little more "loose" in life since it is the only life you have and any reservations you have will only be your loss since once you die that is it?

I am not saying go and kill millions or anything like that. Participating in a threesome and going to college parties is more of what I had in mind.. ;) perhaps the Hitler analogy was a little too extreme. All I mean to say is not living life according to what society deems acceptable since it is the only life you have and when you die, you wouldn't care anyway.

If you don't feel comfortable with telling people about this yet, that's perfectly okay. It is a personal matter. But the people you love should know sooner or later. Your mother may not approve of your decision, but she will still love you.

I can see you know very little about the mother who raised me up with Christian fundamental written all over my forehead...

If ya don't have the balls to tell everyone, wait til ya do.

It's not a stupid fear. It's a perfectly valid fear. This is probably a fear of being shunned for rejecting your beliefs. No one wants to be rejected. It's an understandable fear.

Maybe one day. I suspect they won't even listen to my reasoning.

There is this one (Christian) friend I have been talking to and sharing my doubts with. I am told by this person that it is simply "God's mind is so high above us that we can't understand everything about Him". To which I of course reply, if that is the case then how can we know the Bible is trustworthy since it is penned by (allegedly God-inspired) men? And if that is the case then we have no reason to think any of our interpretations are at all valid.

Not to mention when the Bible says quite clearly that the earth is flat, we really shouldn't be relying on it to tell us the record of the human genesis.
 
Godless said:
And? So what!. many people die worthless lives happen all the time SouthStar, it only should matter is to you and you alone, don't be living for others live foryourself, It would be unfortunate if something were to happen, to me, or you but for now I live for myself, not for the memories of others.



These conserns are part of your departure, it takes time. And some quite a bit of reading, philosphy, psychology, understanding of yourself all over again, and setting priorities, for your own life. Now that you've got secularism in your mind.


It should make a difference to you, remember its a choice, you have taken not a license to be evil, or that any good that you do for yourself, won't matter to you. The deeds that one does in life is for one self or that of his own family. Be selfish it's your life, do as you choose to do, don't worry about the consequences after you die, you seise to exist. Those that love you will remember you.
Why are you so conserned if you are forgotten? Look at the many millions of people that have existed before you, and have died, and no one even knows them, or remembers them unless they done something extraordinary.

If you want to be remembered do something extraordinary. I don't think I have to worry about you going out and doing an extremely evil act now do i?

Godless.

See the above post to Athelwulf. I think many misinterpreted my analogy to Hitler. What I tried to say is that Hitler didn't care what society deemed acceptable and he didn't live his life out the way people wanted him to be. So for example, if I one day decided to watch 24 hours straight of porn ;) that would be against society's "ethics" and yet it ultimately is my decision not theirs and I will die a death without guilt since I won't be remembering any of that. So now you don't have to worry about me doing something "extremely evil", only that I was wondering if you guys still live more or less according to societal norms and morals and why.

And just because no one can prove heaven or hell doesn't mean there isn't the chance (no matter how remote) that they do exist and are a very real place for humans. It is always a scary thought to think maybe, just maybe, I have made a terrible error and I will end up in hell for all eternity for not having faith.
 
Xev said:
Wow, I never thought I'd see such a thing as a Christian become athiest.

SoulthStar:

Athiesm is not a system or a structure of beliefs. Athiesm is simply the individual negation of the idea "God".
It has no moral component.

Now your question of the "meaning of life" is rather meaningless. It's a question of language, not of philosophy, and can't really be solved by logical-philosophical methods.
How could you resolve a word like "meaning"? As "function" or "purpose", correct?
Now the only "function" of life is to produce other life. But even this is a blind expression of will, and there is no "purpose" to it.
You could also ask, in a moral sense, what the "purpose" of life is. Then you will get varied answers - having power, being happy, doing-good, becoming famous through your deeds, loving or serving some ideal.
While all these things have a common feature, they only say what the person answering the question considers most valuable. They say nothing of purpose - for life would still be, and was long before, people decided that the purpose of life was to live in a certain way.

The question is meaningless.
Life simply is, and the problem of life's meaning can only be addressed to those who find life problematic.

Now to morality -

Again, "why be moral" is a non-question. We are given this vauge term "moral" and asked to resolve it in a concrete manner.
This is why those who try to answer the question - like Kant - generally first try to resolve what morality is.
But after thousands of years of trying to resolve this question, nobody has ever adequetely defined morality. They simply assert "morality is this or that" and (hopefully) explain why they make this assertion.

"Morality" is an ill-applied word that generally refers to the user's customs. Yet ethics is not yet ready to be discarded.

We do see something like Kantian "moral laws" when we observe even the most dissimular cultures. Even those that have wildly different ethical customs do at least have ethical customs. What would explain this very general existence of ethical rules? The general trend of western philosophy has been to attribute them to a metaphysical "idea" or "form" of ethics - whether Plato's "good", Aquinas' "God" or Kant's "universal principle". But this is to introduce a term that we cannot solve through philosophical method.

What could explain these? Instinct.

It is instinct that drives us to murder and to condemn murder, to thieve and to hold inviolate the property of our friends. Instinct gives us a general sense of ethics - culture reifies that sense and gives it form.

Both the "meaning of life" and the "meaning of ethics" are blind alleys in philosophy, non-questions that have distracted many a powerful mind in the attempt to resolve them.

Xev,

What I was really going for when I asked what meaning there is to life, I was referring more so to the ultimate purpose. It seems futility to aspire to be rich or famous or well clothed or intelligent, if you are ultimately going to end up rotting with someone who got it much harder in life. I know there are certain things we like to accomplish/acquire during our lives but what is the validity of this if they are only valid as long as we live? If there is no hope of an afterlife in heaven, then all we have is here on earth and therefore we really needn't have any goals. A man who eats good food all his days and a baby that starves to death in it's first three days will all return to dust where their lives will have no meaning to them.


Also if our instincts cause us to behave rather antisocially, is it good to repress them in order to conform to the expectations of society? Must we adhere to the morals of others to find fulfillment in our own lives or should we be our own men and dictate how we live? Futile questions, I know, but the very idea that I could die an hour from now and realize that there really is a hell waiting for me is as equally distressing as dying and that being the end of my existence for ever, regardless of whether I was good or bad in my life.
 
The feeling of emptiness also was part of my conversion, I was Catholic, Christian, then last Babtist. It takes time, one does not come to the dessision overnight, quite a bit of thought goes through your mind to finally come out and claim your lack of faith. You will have many doubts if you still come together with religious friends, they will treat you as if you are sick or something, or just plain confused. Well you know you used this tactics. :rolleyes:

No need to remind me.. :p Wow, I didn't know you were Baptist as well. Yes, it is a hard decision for me but it's not like I can make my doubt go away at will. Since Christianity does not leave room for doubt, then whether or not I admit my doubt is of no significance since my unbelief has already disqualified me. It is actually a most distressing thing since no one can actually control when they doubt and when they don't. You would have to be extremely ignorant and sheltered from all other points of view not to doubt and to never seriously doubt your faith is simply evidence that you don't believe your faith holds enough water to stand the test of criticism.

Yes, I know my less than conventional tactics against anyone who questioned Christianity certainly garned quite an admiration for me. Anyone who hears that I am no longer what they want me to be will treat me differently, an apparent injustice but I at times feel more sorry for them than I do for myself.



And no this isn't any joke, have you ever heard of a Christian joking around with his salvation? The very thought is contradictory to unerring belief..
 
M*W: SouthStar, there will always be meaning to life. The difference is that you will appreciate your life so much more than you did as a Christian. You know my beliefs, and I can tell you, being on sciforums has changed my life, too. I know the truth, and I've even gone through some grief since I've communicated with other non-believers on the forum. Thankfully, my mind is clearer than it was before. And the best part is, there really is no loss for what you are grieving for! You will come to realize that you are a man of faith, a man of trust, and a man who has finally come to know God -- the God in YOU!

Life will become so much better, and your understanding of life will be more keen. You are NOT alone, my friend! I'm sure that any of the other folks on the forum would be willing to help you through this difficult time. I promise you, one day you will wake up in the morning and clearly see your former fellow Christians are caught up in a psychological trap, and you will grieve for them, but they will ridicule you and tell you Satan has gotten hold of you. I'm sure you know all the tactics. They'll be praying for your soul, and talking about you behind your back. But, please remember this, my friend -- You are Free, and they aren't. Welcome to the real world, my friend. You have not lost your salvation -- you have gained it! Don't ever let it go again!

Wow you really do know the way Christians work. They will say that the Devil is simply tempting me and that I have to trust in God more than ever just like Job did. Unfortunately it appears they are the ones who have been decieved but to them, I might as well be telling them that I just gave birth to a crab.

I understood that faith rests on reason and yet my faith simply could not bear the weight of reason and my world came tumbling down. Thank you for your kind words towards me, even though we were once at loggerheads :D It seems like everything is happening so fast and yet there is no God or Bible to latch on to..
 
Halcyon said:
Thats the best reason to live for life itself, to not waste any moment or opportunity. I know I could in a split second from now. Sure, it's distressing as hell, but it's also a great spur to live every moment to it's fullest, as they say. It's this cold, seemingless hopeless prospect that kept a lot of christians I knew to stay christians. It's more comforting to have something to look forward to, yes, and I would love to have it, too. If you find the alternative to religion to be too stark, well, perhaps you should speak with some knowledgeable clergy or christian scholars in an attempt to rekindle your faith...there's every possibility that they're right and we're wrong. I've been an optimest from the outset and so I can't really relate to the ideas you're expressing. I'm trying to think of a way to put different slant on the situation to give you a more positive outlook...i'll let you know if I can come up with anything.

Yes, it would be nice to look forward to an eternal heaven but I fear that the Christians I will seek counsel from are so subjective and so confident that they are right as opposed to everyone else (as I once was) that they will force interpretations to harmonize otherwise disagreeing texts. Kind of hard to be optimistic, when there is nothing to look forward to..

Did I mention I've taken quite a liking to contemporary Christian music.. :eek: well I had better start living my life to it's fullest potential but I shan't give up hope (just yet). Also one question, why haven't you given up hope all this time? If the Bible can certainly not be inerrant as they claim, then how can you believe in any part of it at all?

I have talked to a few Christians who agree that the Bible does actually have mistakes in it but say that the point is it's moral message centered on Christ is still valid. But I ask, if Christ was supportive of erroneous religious texts, then how can we expect Him to be divine (notice how I have not dropped the habit of capitalizing "him" :D )
 
§outh§tar said:
Before I go on to personally reply to posts, I just want to ask these to the atheists/agnostics who have replied:


Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity? The very possibility that they might be right when they say there is a hell, despite the lack of evidence is something that bothers me..

Q: Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God...
A: Nope. Being 'wrong' isn't even a consideration when dealing with
fairytales.

Q: ...and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity?
A: Nope. I don't fear man-made fairytale concepts.
 
(Originally Posted by §outh§tar) But I ask, if Christ was supportive of erroneous religious texts, then how can we expect Him to be divine

Don't you think Christ (who knows everything) would know that men would write things that would be false.

"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings."

The question may then rise, why did he support erroneous texts. Propably just because this was the best way for man.

"There are many things I have to say to you, but you cannot bear yet."
 
§outh§tar said:
1 - Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity?

No. Not at all. I am convienced that should there by some unbelievable circumstance actually be some form of a God Creator his (her) (it) demeanor could not include such concpets as Hell and eternal damnation simply because we used the intelligence that he supposedly gave us to study his creation without giving him praise. I think he would be proud of any cration that can think and come to understand his creation. Hell simply is not within the realm of any God that might exist in such a case.

2 - The very possibility that they might be right when they say there is a hell, despite the lack of evidence is something that bothers me..

It would bother me much more to believe in a God that would create the entire 27 Billion Light Year diameter universe, with billins of gallaxies and billions of stars per gallaxy and create mere man on punny earth as his sole purpose and for that to simply be praise him or suffer eternal damnation.

It is simply beyond belief that that could be the case. And frankly if it were I would not praise such a God.
 
what768 said:
Don't you think Christ (who knows everything) would know that men would write things that would be false.

"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings."

The question may then rise, why did he support erroneous texts. Propably just because this was the best way for man.

"There are many things I have to say to you, but you cannot bear yet."



That is truly a sad excuse, if you will excuse me to say so. If God approves of lies, then He obviously CAN NOT be a God of Truth. It is a direct contradiction of His nature to even tolerate untruths and therefore what you are saying lacks any validity whatsoever. That would be like leaving things in the Bible to purposely mislead people "because this was the best way for man."
 
Before making this announcement, I really and honestly did pray to God. I felt that if I was truly saved, He would not suffer me to be removed from His presence and that He would supplement my faith and understanding so that I could reconcile the contradictions in the Bible and my trust in Him be restored.
First, what contradiction do you speak of, and have you read the very best apologetic material on the subject(ie., those with phd's in history or theology)? There are some extremely bright Christians out there who should be able to answer most of the common objections.

Sometimes, however, what appears to be a contradiction is a form of a strength. True, Judas death is portrayed in two different ways but only because the speech given by Peter was recorded in Peter's spoken words, before all the news of Judas death came to Peter. Those who know God inspired the writings without bearing a heavy down on the human inspiration are pleasently suprised when historical evidence uncovers what was previously thought to be historically wrong.

Second, maybe your beliefs about the Bible, or even the doctrines derived from the Bible, are wrong, have been taught to you wrong? I don't believe in "Once Saved Always Saved." There is plenty of evidence to state the contrary.

Third, it's common to go through dark periods of the soul, even long periods of dryness. For example, the soul typically goes through two dark periods on the path, outlined by St. John of the cross. The first is the rejection of the material world, but after the rejection of the material world, the soul struggles as the soul finds itself unworthy in the presence of God.

I struggle with both at once, notwithstanding. Even upon hearing the voice of God and the Holy Spirit, which command us to trust, there is difference between belief based upon evidence and the desire to belief. But without the desire, a belief based upon evidence is worthless, for the soul will seek disbelief, rejecting the evidence given to it. Having the desire of belief only some might say is not good; but God reveals and shows himself eventually to those who have desire, and those who seek Him earnestly.
 
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§outh§tar, a good man has nothing to worry about, neither here on earth or after death. He knows it if he deserves Hell. Even though he says he does not believe, he is still faithful to God, because he believes in His teachings about love. There are many who call themselves atheists and yet they are more faithful to God than those who say they believe. God knows who is faithful, and a good man knows that also because God is within him.

I don't believe in God like you did. So I don't know if i should argument against what you wrote. But some people maybe need to be "mislead", so that they would realize the "truth". Truth is not always so simple. It is not always right to speak the "truth" for example. For when a young boy is about to die it is not "truth" to say the truth to this boy. It is better to say something nice, because man does not know any other truth than love. So, also "misleading" someone could be done in the sign of love.

Truth is to do the right thing at the right time and place. There are no evil "things", it only depend on how they're used.
 
§outh§tar said:
@ MacM


Thank you for your many kind words. I do understand that there is certain (personal) benefit in advancing humanity for the common good but it really boils down to will it ultimately matter? Is temporal reward so great a prospect that we are forced to conform to societal values? It seemed much more comforting to me when I was under the impression that my efforts on earth would be rewarded for all eternity in heaven. Now that it seems I can only enjoy life depending on how easy/hard I have it, now that I do not know what God to trust in during hard times, it seems that life is left to chance and circumstance; factors beyond our control dictate the course of our lives and our only escape is in death, which is also inevitable and beyond our control. Does this too not seem to be futile? If we will have no rememberance of the earth when we die and it's over once and for all after then, it appears to me that we might as well fulfill every sinful desire we can ever have since this is the only chance we get. Not that I plan on doing so or anything.. :)

I would hope not for I do believe when our time gets near we will cherish the good things achieved and the proliferation of ourselfs via our offspring. To come to the end with no such good deeds and ongoing life forms spawn by us would be a depressing thought.

I only wish I could stick around a few millenium to see the wonders awaiting our great,great, great, great ,great grand children.
 
what768 said:
§outh§tar, a good man has nothing to worry about, neither here on earth or after death. He knows it if he deserves Hell. Even though he says he does not believe, he is still faithful to God, because he believes in His teachings about love. There are many who call themselves atheists and yet they are more faithful to God than those who say they believe. God knows who is faithful, and a good man knows that also because God is within him.

I don't believe in God like you did. So I don't know if i should argument against what you wrote. But some people maybe need to be "mislead", so that they would realize the "truth". Truth is not always so simple. It is not always right to speak the "truth" for example. For when a young boy is about to die it is not "truth" to say the truth to this boy. It is better to say something nice, because man does not know any other truth than love. So, also "misleading" someone could be done in the sign of love.

Truth is to do the right thing at the right time and place. There are no evil "things", it only depend on how they're used.


what768, I know you mean well but do try not to avoid my comments..

Telling a lie to a boy about to die is much different from God telling a lie about the Bible, I think you would agree. First of all, the latter pertains to one's eternal salvation and therefore "misleading" people will mostly get them to hell.

Besides, if Jesus approved of the Old Testament knowing full well that it was false and that even His disciples would draw from it's content afterwards, then He would have known that whatever they were going to quote is false in the first place. Consequently, since prophecies in the Old Testament cannot then pertain to Jesus since they are false, Jesus cannot be the Christ.

Hebrews 6:18
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

So either that means that Jesus cannot be God since He lied about the veracity of the OT or that God actually does lie. It can only be one, which is it?
 
§outh§tar: Wow you really do know the way Christians work. They will say that the Devil is simply tempting me and that I have to trust in God more than ever just like Job did. Unfortunately it appears they are the ones who have been decieved but to them, I might as well be telling them that I just gave birth to a crab.
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M*W: You are healing, SouthStar. It will take some time. Just be aware that during your grieving process, you will still have thoughts about guilt. You will resolve this, too, in time. Just take it a day at a time. To help you along, I think you deserve to pat yourself on the back, and say 'thank you' to yourself for having the will to escape. Thank yourself every day that you are free. You may be experiencing the loss of your Christian friends, and they, of course, won't help you through the grief process. They will do everything they can to rope you back into the fold. I know you are strong, because I know your faith was strong. You didn't lose your faith, your faith lost YOU! SouthStar, this IS salvation!
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SouthStar: I understood that faith rests on reason and yet my faith simply could not bear the weight of reason and my world came tumbling down. Thank you for your kind words towards me, even though we were once at loggerheads :D It seems like everything is happening so fast and yet there is no God or Bible to latch on to..
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M*W: Your world is starting to re-form now. There are other things you can latch onto. You have a lot of support from sciforums members. Many of us have been in your shoes, and we've seen the light! You will begin to learn so much more about life and religion and it will seem like a whole new world has been opened up for you! Look within to find answers you need. Spend time alone meditating (praying) and the answers will come. The universe has a strange way of answering your questions synchronistically! The power that you had in God and the Bible is now within you. Trust in yourself.
 
okinrus said:
First, what contradiction do you speak of, and have you read the very best apologetic material on the subject(ie., those with phd's in history or theology)? There are some extremely bright Christians out there who should be able to answer most of the common objections.

Sometimes, however, what appears to be a contradiction is a form of a strength. True, Judas death is portrayed in two different ways but only because the speech given by Peter was recorded in Peter's spoken words, before all the news of Judas death came to Peter. Those who know God inspired the writings without bearing a heavy down on the human inspiration are pleasently suprised when historical evidence uncovers what was previously thought to be historically wrong.

Second, maybe your beliefs about the Bible, or even the doctrines derived from the Bible, are wrong, have been taught to you wrong? I don't believe in "Once Saved Always Saved." There is plenty of evidence to state the contrary.

Third, it's common to go through dark periods of the soul, even long periods of dryness. For example, the soul typically goes through two dark periods on the path, outlined by St. John of the cross. The first is the rejection of the material world, but after the rejection of the material world, the soul struggles as the soul finds itself unworthy in the presence of God.

I struggle with both at once, notwithstanding. Even upon hearing the voice of God and the Holy Spirit, which command us to trust, there is difference between belief based upon evidence and the desire to belief. But without the desire, a belief based upon evidence is worthless, for the soul will seek disbelief, rejecting the evidence given to it. Having the desire of belief only some might say is not good; but God reveals and shows himself eventually to those who have desire, and those who seek Him earnestly.

The Bible also rejects the claim of the soul "struggling" because it finds itself "unworthy" of God. The Bible numerously claims that the blood of Jesus has made Christians perfect in God's sight and therefore there is no cause to struggle unless the blood isn't really doing it's job.

I am quite aware that the Bible claims that wisdom and understanding of the Scripture is by the Spirit and not of human wisdom. If one needs a pHD in theology in order to understand contradictions in the Bible, then Christianity must be a scholar's sport and is of no business to the world. But perhaps you can help me with a few here: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/tomb.html


EDIT:
I struggle with both at once, notwithstanding. Even upon hearing the voice of God and the Holy Spirit, which command us to trust, there is difference between belief based upon evidence and the desire to belief. But without the desire, a belief based upon evidence is worthless, for the soul will seek disbelief, rejecting the evidence given to it. Having the desire of belief only some might say is not good; but God reveals and shows himself eventually to those who have desire, and those who seek Him earnestly.

In other words you are telling me that I don't need rationality to believe. Having the desire to belief has helped me none as I have already said. I prayed truly and earnestly that my dear God would shew me some light to invigorate me and quell my doubts and yet here I am, God has abandoned me in my trying times and I am alone. So much for Scripture that says He will stick "closer than a friend". :(

To atheists/agnostics
okinrus, the master of apologetics, says that God reveals himself to those who seek him earnestly. How long now have you been waiting for a sign which has never come? You might think your answer is far too long, but just put that in perspective of Christianity waiting over two thousand years and during that waiting period, bickering and burning each other.
 
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SouthStar,

There is an old saying "You should not reward Johnny for not kicking grandma in the shins."

What it means is one should be content to be good for the sake and pleasure of being good. One should not expect a reward for doing right.

Doing right because it is your nature gives much more pride and pleasure.
 
The Bible also rejects the claim of the soul "struggling" because it finds itself "unworthy" of God.
No, the Bible doesn't.

The Bible numerously claims that the blood of Jesus has made Christians perfect in God's sight and therefore there is no cause to struggle unless the blood isn't really doing it's job.
No, the Bible doesn't.

am quite aware that the Bible claims that wisdom and understanding of the Scripture is by the Spirit and not of human wisdom. If one needs a pHD in theology in order to understand contradictions in the Bible, then Christianity must be a scholar's sport and is of no business to the world. But perhaps you can help me with a few here:
It was never your job to interpret Scripture in the first place. Sure, you can interpret specific passages to your own life, but to claim any interpretation is correct beyond doubt requires a stamp of authority, one which neither I nor you have in general. Sure, I'll can give many possible intepretations, which should to the extent of my abilities correspond to the Church's, but it is not I but the Church who as the authority in such matters.

When I am able to respond to that site, in full, I'll post a new thread, ok? The only real rebuttel I've done before of that site is their interpretation of Pascal's gamble.
 
Meaning?

XEV
Now your question of the "meaning of life" is rather meaningless. It's a question of language, not of philosophy, and can't really be solved by logical-philosophical methods.
How could you resolve a word like "meaning"? As "function" or "purpose", correct?
Now the only "function" of life is to produce other life. But even this is a blind expression of will, and there is no "purpose" to it.
You could also ask, in a moral sense, what the "purpose" of life is. Then you will get varied answers - having power, being happy, doing-good, becoming famous through your deeds, loving or serving some ideal.
While all these things have a common feature, they only say what the person answering the question considers most valuable. They say nothing of purpose - for life would still be, and was long before, people decided that the purpose of life was to live in a certain way.
I agree with you.
To place a meaning or purpose to life is to negate free-will and to make the idea of self a big joke.
To search for purpose and meaning in life, other than in the self, is to search for external validation and guidance.
In life, luckily, there is only function, and meaning is dependant on personal motives and perspectives. If your motive is to fit in or to belong and your perspective is that of a frightened mind looking for concretes and absolutes then you will always ask the question: “What is the meaning of life?”
To which question only you could and should answer.

The question is meaningless.
Life simply is, and the problem of life's meaning can only be addressed to those who find life problematic.
Most of the philosophical problems facing humanity today have been caused because we ask the wrong questions in the wrong ways. To place meaning outside human consciousness and to seek it outwardly, is like looking for your self in other peoples eyes.
The human mind is responsible for creating meaning, for meaning is simply an interpretation.
What is the interpreter in this case? The human conscious mind.


I personally would be greatly disheartened if the question of meaning could be answered sufficiently.

Now to morality -

Again, "why be moral" is a non-question. We are given this vauge term "moral" and asked to resolve it in a concrete manner.
This is why those who try to answer the question - like Kant - generally first try to resolve what morality is.
But after thousands of years of trying to resolve this question, nobody has ever adequetely defined morality. They simply assert "morality is this or that" and (hopefully) explain why they make this assertion.

"Morality" is an ill-applied word that generally refers to the user's customs. Yet ethics is not yet ready to be discarded.
A good definition of ‘morality’ is the sacrifice of personal interests to the interests of the whole.
Being that human beings are social animals, some form of morality will always exist.
The question now is whose and towards what end?

We do see something like Kantian "moral laws" when we observe even the most dissimular cultures. Even those that have wildly different ethical customs do at least have ethical customs. What would explain this very general existence of ethical rules? The general trend of western philosophy has been to attribute them to a metaphysical "idea" or "form" of ethics - whether Plato's "good", Aquinas' "God" or Kant's "universal principle". But this is to introduce a term that we cannot solve through philosophical method.

What could explain these? Instinct.
The reason why there are so many similarities between moral systems is because all systems all social groups have many common interests: discipline, conformity, harmony, control.
Where there is a divergence in moral law is when different motives and goals come into play.

It is instinct that drives us to murder and to condemn murder, to thieve and to hold inviolate the property of our friends. Instinct gives us a general sense of ethics - culture reifies that sense and gives it form.
It focuses it for its own purposes and meanings.

Both the "meaning of life" and the "meaning of ethics" are blind alleys in philosophy, non-questions that have distracted many a powerful mind in the attempt to resolve them.
Ethics, in my view, is a subject that should not be taught in school under the philosophy discipline.
If anything, it belongs under religion or spirituality.
Just by posing the question of what is ‘good’ or what is ‘just’ or what is ‘moral you are inadvertently placing the common interests above your own

§outh§tar
Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity? The very possibility that they might be right when they say there is a hell, despite the lack of evidence is something that bothers me..
If you believe suffering for what you are and paying the price for being honest and true to yourself is not worth eternal hell, then you have no place being free.
If I’m supposed to suffer for living up to the very things I was created to be by the very creator who created me, supposedly, then when the time comes I’ll spit in His/Her/Its face and endure the price of being human.
Besides, I suspect that nothing can be worse than existence.
 
@ okinrus

The Church has no such authority over the believer and therefore the Church cannot mandate what is orthodox and what is heretic to the faith. You are speaking like a Catholic instead of an objective inquirer. The Bible makes no such claim to verify your verneration of Church to such responsibility.


And as for saying the Bible does not reject the concept of a "struggling soul which finds itself unworthy":

2 Corinthians 4
16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

What then is the point of finding oneself to be unworthy if the spirit is in constant renewal? It simply makes no sense.

Titus 3
4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Again salvation through grace equates to "rebirth" and therefore your idea of "struggling" would be in disobedience to the assured promise, which would then be in vain.

Also what do you make of the fact that the Bible actually supports a flat earth theory?
 
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