With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians
- Thread starter §outh§tar
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SouthStar, I have verses in mind; they are not worth arguing over, especially since the verses you've given do not support your conclusions. Paul writes to "uplift" not tear down. What is meant by "we" is himself, along with those who do not loose hope.
The Bible is written in its time, using expressions of its time. Since the "four corners" is a matter expression, the use of the expression does not mean the world is flat.
SoulthStar:
There is none, and I've come to the conclusion that questions of purpose are meaningless.
Wrong. Obviously we still have goals on earth.
Yup.
Not really, but the alternative is way worse.
Can't empathize, the idea of worshipping a psychotic control freak never really appealed to me.
Although, I suppose Har is psychotic and something of a control freak?
But really - would you want to be close to such a God?
Then again, I never had the urge to worship anything, and I presume you have. No offense, but you seem to be either young or the sort of person who needs guidence in their life.
Athiesm is completely amoral. Now the individual athiest may find individual "reasons for life" or things, but they're not going to get that from anyone or anything besides themselves. Maybe you just need time to adjust to this new worldview, but you must realize that athiesm is nothing like Christianity. It's completely nihilistic.
If you're not comfortable with that I think you should consider only - modifying - your opinion of God.
No offense. If you're serious about this, I respect you: for I never thought someone born and raised religious could come to the athiestic standpoint on view of pure reason.
Wanderer:
Thanks, I was hoping that was an accurate summary of what I was trying to convey.
There is none, and I've come to the conclusion that questions of purpose are meaningless.
Wrong. Obviously we still have goals on earth.
Yup.
Not really, but the alternative is way worse.
Can't empathize, the idea of worshipping a psychotic control freak never really appealed to me.
Although, I suppose Har is psychotic and something of a control freak?
But really - would you want to be close to such a God?
Then again, I never had the urge to worship anything, and I presume you have. No offense, but you seem to be either young or the sort of person who needs guidence in their life.
Athiesm is completely amoral. Now the individual athiest may find individual "reasons for life" or things, but they're not going to get that from anyone or anything besides themselves. Maybe you just need time to adjust to this new worldview, but you must realize that athiesm is nothing like Christianity. It's completely nihilistic.
If you're not comfortable with that I think you should consider only - modifying - your opinion of God.
No offense. If you're serious about this, I respect you: for I never thought someone born and raised religious could come to the athiestic standpoint on view of pure reason.
Wanderer:
Thanks, I was hoping that was an accurate summary of what I was trying to convey.
Hi, §outh§tar
Yours is truly an amazing post.
Wonderfully written.
Kudos to you §outh§tar! And Congratulations!
I can not say much that hasn’t been said. I used to be a believer. I think it’s almost only natural. However, honestly, the day I discovered the truth I felt the most light-hearted I’d ever felt. I don’t know why? I felt great. Truly Fantastic!!
You’ll soon realize that you now have the opportunity to go further in life than you ever could have before. Study Chinese! Do a Doctorate in Archeology! Travel! Eat raw Fish! Exercise! Move to another country! Go back to school and study Biology! Maybe teach Evolution and Theology at University!
Anyway, I didn’t really think about not living after death. It’s something I didn’t think much about before and still don’t. You know, Chris is going for the freeze. As a neuroscientist I feel there is an opportunity at rebirth there. Memory may be structural protein and that certainly is intact after a freeze. Maybe in 50 year’s it’ll be common place? So don’t worry. As for morals. They are with you now. Could you go out and kill your neighbor? Why not steal something from him? Some people could and do. But that’s not you now is it? No I didn’t think so. I hope
Anyway, take care and good luck,
Best Wishes!
Michael II
Yours is truly an amazing post.
Wonderfully written.
Kudos to you §outh§tar! And Congratulations!
I can not say much that hasn’t been said. I used to be a believer. I think it’s almost only natural. However, honestly, the day I discovered the truth I felt the most light-hearted I’d ever felt. I don’t know why? I felt great. Truly Fantastic!!
You’ll soon realize that you now have the opportunity to go further in life than you ever could have before. Study Chinese! Do a Doctorate in Archeology! Travel! Eat raw Fish! Exercise! Move to another country! Go back to school and study Biology! Maybe teach Evolution and Theology at University!
Anyway, I didn’t really think about not living after death. It’s something I didn’t think much about before and still don’t. You know, Chris is going for the freeze. As a neuroscientist I feel there is an opportunity at rebirth there. Memory may be structural protein and that certainly is intact after a freeze. Maybe in 50 year’s it’ll be common place? So don’t worry. As for morals. They are with you now. Could you go out and kill your neighbor? Why not steal something from him? Some people could and do. But that’s not you now is it? No I didn’t think so. I hope
Anyway, take care and good luck,
Best Wishes!
Michael II
SouthStar,
You raised the issue of sin and others have also commented on it.
Ask yourself this. All manner of living things that reproduce, including even most plants, have male and female counter parts to carry out the process.
Does it make any sense what-so-ever to consider that a god would have created the entire universe and all in it including male and female and then stipulate.
a - We should inherent the earth (reproduce)
b - Don't dally in the garden of Eden or face negative consequences.
c - Claiming sin for having taken advantage of the appendages which he created for the purpose of procreation, by virtue of the bological urges he also created, seems a bit duplicitous and nonsensical. Now I have had other christians challenge this claiming that the sin wasn't having sex but for having had sex when told not to do so.
While not minding God might be punishable, it still makes no sense that God would give such an order except to temp his creation. And that also is an unacceptable attribute for any true God. Especially for one that supposedly knew in advance that they would disobey.
d - Having been born generations hence just how do you suppose this innocent youth should be held responsible and bear the burden of the original sin?
I am afraid the Bible is folklore and not good folklore at that. If you can take a deep breath and relax, you will thouroughly enjoy your newly found freedom of self thought.
You are now free to grant to your God those attributes that you yourself find appropriate for him and you can live by those standards without internal conflict.
This is what I have done. It is somewhat ironic. My wife and I now manage a retirement community (32.5 acres). One of the residents to whom we have gotten fairly close, knows of my distain for religion, yet just yesterday out of the blue he made the following comment "You simply amaze me. You don't believe in church and a God but yet you act more christian than most christians. You treat people the way people should be treated.".
Made me feel pretty good. I am seen good for myself, not because I subscribe to some authority under threat or pretend to be something which I may not be.
I think you will do well. It took a lot of inner strength to face up to your convictions. Don't look back and long for the comfort of hollow promises in return for threats.
You raised the issue of sin and others have also commented on it.
Ask yourself this. All manner of living things that reproduce, including even most plants, have male and female counter parts to carry out the process.
Does it make any sense what-so-ever to consider that a god would have created the entire universe and all in it including male and female and then stipulate.
a - We should inherent the earth (reproduce)
b - Don't dally in the garden of Eden or face negative consequences.
c - Claiming sin for having taken advantage of the appendages which he created for the purpose of procreation, by virtue of the bological urges he also created, seems a bit duplicitous and nonsensical. Now I have had other christians challenge this claiming that the sin wasn't having sex but for having had sex when told not to do so.
While not minding God might be punishable, it still makes no sense that God would give such an order except to temp his creation. And that also is an unacceptable attribute for any true God. Especially for one that supposedly knew in advance that they would disobey.
d - Having been born generations hence just how do you suppose this innocent youth should be held responsible and bear the burden of the original sin?
I am afraid the Bible is folklore and not good folklore at that. If you can take a deep breath and relax, you will thouroughly enjoy your newly found freedom of self thought.
You are now free to grant to your God those attributes that you yourself find appropriate for him and you can live by those standards without internal conflict.
This is what I have done. It is somewhat ironic. My wife and I now manage a retirement community (32.5 acres). One of the residents to whom we have gotten fairly close, knows of my distain for religion, yet just yesterday out of the blue he made the following comment "You simply amaze me. You don't believe in church and a God but yet you act more christian than most christians. You treat people the way people should be treated.".
Made me feel pretty good. I am seen good for myself, not because I subscribe to some authority under threat or pretend to be something which I may not be.
I think you will do well. It took a lot of inner strength to face up to your convictions. Don't look back and long for the comfort of hollow promises in return for threats.
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Southstar;
Congratulations buddy, you're a free man and about to start becoming a full, real human being.
Athiest brothers;
Haha, he fell for it, I can't wait to laugh at him in hell.
Congratulations buddy, you're a free man and about to start becoming a full, real human being.
Athiest brothers;
Haha, he fell for it, I can't wait to laugh at him in hell.
Wow §outh§tar! Ya've brought up a lot of points since I was last here. Well, writing responces to these points would be my pleasure.
I won't lie to you. I sometimes think about the fact that Christians have some wild chance of being right. I sometimes think that I'm going to Hell. It does bother me. But ya know what? I think that if God existed, and if He were merciful, like some Christians say, I think He would understand why you have doubts and let you into Heaven anyway. This is a reassuring thought.
And here's another reassuring thought: Christianity is not the only religion that promises eternal punishment for your sins. The Egyptians believed that when you died, the weight of your heart was compared to that of a feather on a balance. If it was heavier, it was gobbled up by some dog-like creature (I don't know that detail very well).
Another thought: there's every chance that another religion is right. Think about this: You decide it's not worth it to risk going to Hell, and you go back to being a devoted Christian. But when you die, you find yourself standing before Hades.
That's something to think about.
What about just being good for no reason?! All your humanitarian acts performed without expecting a prize at the end is rewarding in and of itself.
Letting go of Christianity does make you free to fulfill every sinful desire you have. This is where common sense and a personal moral code comes in. Decide if it will hurt anyone (including yourself). If it won't, then go ahead and fulfill that desire!
You would care when you are alive, wouldn't you?
You can be loose. You can defy what society deems sinful. Live life! You can have a ménage à trois! You can watch 24 hours of porn! You can masturbate the entire 24 hours (there really isn't a social stigma around that anymore, but still)! Again, this is where common sense and your personal moral code comes in!
That doesn't matter! You're still her son. I know she'll still love you. Okay, I can give you the fact that she may not like it. But deep down, she'll still love you!
Dictate how you live. Be your own man!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: personal moral code! That's something worth latching onto!
Oh, and don't forget about us! See how helpful we've been?
Hehe. I made the habit of doing that. I figured it was a sign of respect. Ya can find posts where I capitalize "he".
That's one of the reasons why I'm an atheist. God should have given me a sign that He is there and that I should follow Him like a sheep (ugh, I hate that analogy). And He should have given me a pretty damn obvious sign too, because I'm very bull-headed.
Well, there have been no signs. So I see no reason to believe.
Amen!
Hang in there! Peace, Love, Health, and Happiness!
Âðelwulf
§outh§tar said:
I won't lie to you. I sometimes think about the fact that Christians have some wild chance of being right. I sometimes think that I'm going to Hell. It does bother me. But ya know what? I think that if God existed, and if He were merciful, like some Christians say, I think He would understand why you have doubts and let you into Heaven anyway. This is a reassuring thought.
And here's another reassuring thought: Christianity is not the only religion that promises eternal punishment for your sins. The Egyptians believed that when you died, the weight of your heart was compared to that of a feather on a balance. If it was heavier, it was gobbled up by some dog-like creature (I don't know that detail very well).
Another thought: there's every chance that another religion is right. Think about this: You decide it's not worth it to risk going to Hell, and you go back to being a devoted Christian. But when you die, you find yourself standing before Hades.
That's something to think about.
What about just being good for no reason?! All your humanitarian acts performed without expecting a prize at the end is rewarding in and of itself.
Letting go of Christianity does make you free to fulfill every sinful desire you have. This is where common sense and a personal moral code comes in. Decide if it will hurt anyone (including yourself). If it won't, then go ahead and fulfill that desire!
I am only saying that is it not possible to be a little more "loose" in life since it is the only life you have and any reservations you have will only be your loss since once you die that is it?
I am not saying go and kill millions or anything like that. Participating in a threesome and going to college parties is more of what I had in mind..
You would care when you are alive, wouldn't you?
You can be loose. You can defy what society deems sinful. Live life! You can have a ménage à trois! You can watch 24 hours of porn! You can masturbate the entire 24 hours (there really isn't a social stigma around that anymore, but still)! Again, this is where common sense and your personal moral code comes in!
That doesn't matter! You're still her son. I know she'll still love you. Okay, I can give you the fact that she may not like it. But deep down, she'll still love you!
Dictate how you live. Be your own man!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: personal moral code! That's something worth latching onto!
Oh, and don't forget about us! See how helpful we've been?
(notice how I have not dropped the habit of capitalizing "him"
Hehe. I made the habit of doing that. I figured it was a sign of respect. Ya can find posts where I capitalize "he".
That's one of the reasons why I'm an atheist. God should have given me a sign that He is there and that I should follow Him like a sheep (ugh, I hate that analogy). And He should have given me a pretty damn obvious sign too, because I'm very bull-headed.
Well, there have been no signs. So I see no reason to believe.
Amen!
Hang in there! Peace, Love, Health, and Happiness!
Âðelwulf
See, now this is where knowledge of religions come into play. When you think with the mindset of just one religion such as you're doing now with Christianity, you only think of the only two possibilities of being: go to heaven, or go to hell. Christianity is not the only religion so it's not a Christianity vs Athiest issue where the odds would be 50/50 of there being a Hell or not. That's unacceptable. With those odds, it is NOT "very possible" that there is a Hell.
Why ask that question towards us of it may be bothering us if we're wrong in our beliefs? Obviously it's not. You should be asking that question to yourself if *you* are wrong. Realize that there are numerous religions that each have their own beliefs on what happens when we die. Odds are, every single one of us are wrong in our beliefs and that's the silly part.
Another question I would like to ask. Why do/did you feel that Christianity has/had the correct views of everything? The only real reason is because that's the religion in which you were brought up as and that's the only religion you know anything of. What else could the reason be? Christianity isn't the most recent religion nor is it the oldest so that can't be the reason. Expand your knowledge about God and you will soon see that most likely nobody is correct in their views. With all the beliefs of what happens when we die, the odds are against Christianity and every other religion, a LOT more than a thousand to one, more like a million to one, heck, multi-billions to one if you count every single man and woman's varying thoughts since the begining of time.
- N
Pascal's Wage, Athelwulf. There are only a finite number of religions out there. Latter I'll give a fuller explanation, answering common complaints about the Wager. I'm going to rephrase this better; if you have anything to add, please share. You cannot really believe that your life's material experiences has an infinite value.
It all depends on what one means by God "revealing" himself to those who seek him. It may be visions, it may be seeing him in the sky, or something else, but the revelations of God I've had was mere enlightenment. I don't believe in a material God in the traditional sense nor do I believe that God has any part in my life, but one can still have things revealed without any intervention from him. The more I studied and the more I seeked to learn about everything, one day some things just "clicked" and made sense even if my ideas may differ from others. That was my moment of enlightenment which would be along the same lines as other people's revelations of God
Remember, there are many ways in which things can be revealed to someone. While you are used to dreams and visions due to reading about them with your Christian background, it doesn't mean that's the only way. Become more knowledgable and you will hear about more ways of revelations. Who knows, you may one day hear of a way to see a sign of God by hoola-hooping while rubbing your tummy and patting your head and repeatedly saying "Bubbly Bubba, Boogies Badly".
So for me, I would say that knowledge is the best way to have God reveal himself to you.- N
SouthStar, many doubts will certainly be in your head now, however the choice you've made takes time. You for instance have cut the unbelical cord sort of speak, so you will have feelings of regret, doubts, sadness, joy, happiness, anxiety, and fear.
Relax this is normal your only human, to use Xev's line:
Remember you have no authorative religion over your head now, it is you as an individual that must set the course of your own life, fact is it has always been your choice, wether you were a Christian or an Atheist, agnostic, or whatever. Your choices are not a matter of faith, or lack there off, your choice to do good, is for your own gratitude. A Hitler a Mao, or some other dictator had choices too, however they were mongrells who got off on destruction, and human suffering. Mysticism is so deep, even an atheist can be a mystic. Mysticism is your enemy, realize this, you have made just a baby step, sortofspeak, a big step for someone who has been brought up as we have, I know. I've been an atheist for 23 years, Id be lying to you if I said I've never had doubts or made wrong choices, that is all part of being human.
Godless.
Relax this is normal your only human, to use Xev's line:
Remember you have no authorative religion over your head now, it is you as an individual that must set the course of your own life, fact is it has always been your choice, wether you were a Christian or an Atheist, agnostic, or whatever. Your choices are not a matter of faith, or lack there off, your choice to do good, is for your own gratitude. A Hitler a Mao, or some other dictator had choices too, however they were mongrells who got off on destruction, and human suffering. Mysticism is so deep, even an atheist can be a mystic. Mysticism is your enemy, realize this, you have made just a baby step, sortofspeak, a big step for someone who has been brought up as we have, I know. I've been an atheist for 23 years, Id be lying to you if I said I've never had doubts or made wrong choices, that is all part of being human.
Godless.
Athelwulf, I'll answer this, along with analysis latter but this "fallacy" taken from the infidels site. In short, this is not what's wrong with Pascal's Wager. What is wrong with Pascal's wager is that it assumes that nonbelief in God will never be awarded by a God who exists. I think this is reasonable assumption.
It's not sufficient to say that there are more than one religion, millions even. Loosely speaking because there can be only a finite so many of these religions, it can only multiply the expected value of the atheist's position by a constant factor. This is only if an atheist viewpoint is somehow more rewarding than a believers. I'll give more analysis later.
It's not sufficient to say that there are more than one religion, millions even. Loosely speaking because there can be only a finite so many of these religions, it can only multiply the expected value of the atheist's position by a constant factor. This is only if an atheist viewpoint is somehow more rewarding than a believers. I'll give more analysis later.