With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[Persol]

But God does not always give a gift until one has asked many times for it, and in your case maybe wisdom is not require.

Another cop-out? "Well if it happens it was God. If it doesn't you must not have needed it."

Well, what I wrote before was that the Bible provides examples, insights, and teachings; but the Bible is not all teachings, insights, and examples: that being withheld to be God. Since the Bible, in fact, says there is no teacher but God, no example greater than God, the belief is consistent.

Two points:
1) The Bible is consistant about God 'being the example'... but it is also obviously incorrect in many other areas. Yet, you choose to believe it in peacemeal.
2) What EXACTLY besides the Bible supports your belief in the Son/Father/Ghost? Whatever it is, I guarentee you that the source traces back to the Bible.

 

[SnakeLord]

Well it's been a while, and I haven't read any of the posts except for the very first one. However, I would like to offer an applause to Southstar who has finally become a homo sapien.

I remember debating you with you many times.. I'm just happy to see you with your eyes open.

 

[Cyperium]

god has ignored his prayers, else he would not be saying, what he is would he, cyperium. think before you speak.

When you feel that you have lost your faith, it's easy to complain that He is ignoring you and that it's somehow His fault. It's the same pattern as when you make a mistake actually, you blame your leg for hitting the table.

 

[Cyperium]

§outh§tar:

If you honestly want your faith back then don't struggle so much, let it come.

Sit back and listen instead of discussing with yourself.

As I have said before, we should rest in our faith.

Sometimes we have to give in.

 

[okinrus]

Another cop-out?

No, this was just my statement. When Jesus was in the Garden of Olives, he asked that this cup be taken away from him, but not by his will. God only provides what is good for us. If we asked for something bad, then God would not give it to us. If we asked for an unnecessary gift, which we might already have, wh would God give to us? It does not seem that SouthPark is asking for wisdom but for knowledge. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge. Knowledge is that which many have; it neither being good nor bad, but at times it may be detrimental.

1) The Bible is consistant about God 'being the example'...

The word "Bible" is not mentioned inside the books collected inside the Bible. The closest mention of the Bible as an example is in Paul's letters, where he says that all Scripture is good for reproof and correction. Paul does not, however, say that scripture was all the reproof and correct that would be provided to someone.

but it is also obviously incorrect in many other areas. Yet, you choose to believe it in peacemeal.

The Bible is correct with respect to theology when understood properly. I don't claim to understand all of the Bible properly, though.

2) What EXACTLY besides the Bible supports your belief in the Son/Father/Ghost? Whatever it is, I guarentee you that the source traces back to the Bible.

Love cannot properly exist without two or more persons. Since I believe God is loving, I believe that God has two persons. Now I'm uncertain of why I believe God is loving; I think I came to this belief based upon intuition and the world around us.

 

[-=T=-]

... But God does not always give a gift until one has asked many times for it....

:bugeye:

Yes, God does so enjoy toying with his minions.

 

[okinrus]

-=T=-, can you learn patience without waiting?

 

[Cyperium]

-=T=-, can you learn patience without waiting?

I want to note that it doesn't matter how many times you ask for it, as long as you really mean it.

God know what you want even before you have asked Him.

 

[okinrus]

Yes, you are correct Cyperium. In fact, simply asking for knowledge might be testing God. Yet if we ask for wisdom, and truly believe that we need wisdom, then God will eventually give us wisdom, at the right time and place.

 

[Persol]

Love cannot properly exist without two or more persons. Since I believe God is loving

You do realize that this is bull, right? The rest of your response doesn't actually address what I sai, but this comes right out of left field.

Who exactly is it that god loves, himself only? If that's the case, who cares about him anyway.

If it's that he loves everybody (as is commonly claimed) then WE are the second person(s).... making your trinity excuse just funny.

 

[-=T=-]

I see.

So if I ask for patience, I won't get it immediately.

Errr.... what's the lesson again?

 

[duendy]

of course the easiest way of gaining wisdom/Sophia, is the ingesting of some psilocybin shrooms

i speak from experience. i have just had a holiday on the west coast. my cousin gave me about 40 little psilocybin shrooms. we eat them, and in the evening we explored the beach and the a-mazing dunes

My cousin gave me a lesson about star configurations--it was a very starry night, with no light pollution, so we could even see the Milky Way. i saw the Plough, and Sirius etc

I felt the awesom power of walking through this little silver wood

later we happned upn a documentary on Tv about the Plaestinian Isralie conflict. it is a camera following people, round Isreal. i was alternatively laughing hysterically and feeling sad and a whole host of emotions. through eyes dripping with tears from spontaneous laughter, i saw as deep as i had looked at the starry sky

It was like a Bruegal painting, in action (he was a famous medieval painter who depicted the folly of human kind)...i saw directly that the trouble was directly connected to people/groups clinging to belief-structures which divide them from the others--who in turn are doing the same

seeing this directly Is wisdom...call it 'God' 'Goddess' 'Pan' or what you will. the most important thing is the Direct perception......

 

[okinrus]

Rejecting funny as the right word, I do agree. But what I meant was eternally loving. For before creation, God was love, and God created us through His love. One might still be able to argue that in divine thought we have always existed. But there remains no reason we would be in God's mind to begin with. Because the reason for our existence transcends time, we, as creatures, cannot really understand the Trinity.

My argument, however, was based not on our complete understanding of the Trinity but whether the Trinity was intuitively true. That, I believe, is so but the Trinity does not even appear in the Bible. I was introduced to the Trinity, first, at sunday school. But I don't believe I actually understood it, then. Maybe my first introduction was some other source, such as the catholic enclopedia. Never, during this time, did I read proofs of the Trinity from the Bible.

 

[-=T=-]

Maybe my first introduction was some other source, such as the catholic enclopedia.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299

 

[water]

I want to note that it doesn't matter how many times you ask for it, as long as you really mean it.

God know what you want even before you have asked Him.

Please, right now you are advising the man to bang his head against the wall even more.

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar, assuming that you need wisdom, then it seems to be a reasonable request. But God does not always give a gift until one has asked many times for it, and in your case maybe wisdom is not require. Maybe you should be asking for what is needed? I think in Luke even there is the story of a women who had to ask a cruel judge many times for a favor.

I was asking for wisdom to understand the problems in the Bible and if not wisdom, then all I asked for was the gift of trust or faith to ignore the glaring problems in the Bible.

Now I know this is immensely stupid to ask God for faith so that I can pretend there is nothing wrong with the Bible, but I was broken and desperate. Considering his promises, I don't see why everyone is making me look like the one at fault here. If I had the "patience" in the first place, why would I be asking for faith when I could just outlive my conflict? It seems that if there is a Christian God, He found it fit to leave me be at the time I required Him the most. Like Persol said, if He answered me then you say it was His plan to answer me. If not, you still say it was His plan to delay and test my patience. If He never ever answers me, then you say it was not His will to answer me in the first place. Seems like a cop-out to me too.

And if I asked for what is needed, is He going to answer me verbally or something? Of course not. I needed answers from Him, not problems. Since He never answered me, I concluded everything I felt about Him was all in my head. Something along the lines of what RosaMagika was saying about psychology, I think.

 

[§outh§tar]

§outh§tar:

If you honestly want your faith back then don't struggle so much, let it come.

Sit back and listen instead of discussing with yourself.

As I have said before, we should rest in our faith.

Sometimes we have to give in.

"Let it come"?

Sit back and listen to what? The Bible? The Bible is the entire reason I kissed Christianity goodbye in the firstplace so unless I have some divinely-inspired epiphany I am not looking into a book written by men for answers.

Sometimes we may have to give in, but when it is against all reason and any chance of reconciliation we have to let go. If God wants to have me "back", that is up to Him. I tried to do the whole "have faith" thing and it hasn't helped me any.

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar, did you become an atheist or something? or do you still believe in God, but you are not a christian anymore? I'm just confused.

Peace be unto you

Not a Christian and don't believe in the Christian God or the God of the Bible or the God of organized religion.

That is not to say I dismiss the possibility of a God, but to make me devote my life to an extraordinary God again (highly unlikely) requires extraordinary proof. A book that promotes confusion is no extraordinary proof of an extraordinary God.

 

[§outh§tar]

Everything must happen in it's time.

Maybe you never lost your faith? Maybe you just choose to ignore it?

I'm quite sure "ignoring" one's faith is equivalent to losing it but in any case, I did not ignore it, but rather parted ways.

Maybe you have to do something?

Like what? Continue believing that Herod slaughtered infants and that no one ever recorded the event? Or that when Jesus died, saints rose up from the dead and entered Jerusalem to be seen by all? Or that Noah's Ark was able to house two (or seven) of every single organism (from bacteria to T-Rex) on his ark? Or that the earth is flat because the Bible says so?

God has heard your prayer, no doubt about it. Now it's up to you.

Up to me to do what? Continue in ignorance? Have faith that my ignorance will be rewarded one day in a superficial heaven with gold and other precious stones?

 

[786]

Not a Christian and don't believe in the Christian God or the God of the Bible or the God of organized religion.

That is not to say I dismiss the possibility of a God, but to make me devote my life to an extraordinary God again (highly unlikely) requires extraordinary proof. A book that promotes confusion is no extraordinary proof of an extraordinary God.

This has been amazing to me. Since your religion cannot defend itself, you don't believe in God.

First of all I congratulate that you have finally come to know that Christianity is flawed.

But at the same time I am sad, that you no longer believe in God.

But I am happy for another thing. You no longer believe Jesus as God. In Islam God does not forgive shirk (assigning partners with God). So it is a good thing you don't in that anymore.

I invite you to Islam. I ask you to read the Quran, inshallah you will find the truth.

Peace be unto you