With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[Pete]

Now, let's get intellectual!

What meaning do you have in life? I formerly believed myself to be pleasing God and furthering His kingdom (all part of the Christian jargon) and that I would one day be rewarded for all eternity.
I find that there really is no reason for me to live either a moral or immoral life but my Christian upbringing has pretty much ensured that I will never become a drunkard or be smoking port or banging pretty girls after ten... What reasons do you give for living moral lives?
What solace and comfort do you have for life and what joy do you have in death?
What then do you devote your lives to if not for a "higher purpose and calling"?

Exactly the questions I struggled with and still examine regularly.
The most important conclusion I came to regarding the meaning of life is that:

We must make our own meaning in life

I expect that you will spend some time skimming the ideas of numerous philosophers to address this question. I did the same. Essentially, I found that all chose some set of axioms, and constructed their own meaning from there.

My current axioms (I change them sometimes, but not lightly) are something like (I don't usually formalize them):

1. Life is better than death; for myself first, but also for others
2. Happiness is better than unhappiness; for myself first, but also for others
3. The wellbeing of Society and/or Humanity is better than otherwise
4. Justice is worthwhile only as guided by the preceding axioms
5. I have free will
   I also have some scientific axioms as a basis for evaluating evidence:
6. My senses provide a reasonable approximation of reality
7. The principle of induction is valid
8. Past goodness and future goodness are equally worthwhile
9. The past can not be changed
10. The future is not fixed

These are effectively baseless rules - I choose to accept them at face value, without looking for underlying reasons. There probably are underlying reasons (that's why they're on the list), but I deliberately choose not to examine those reasons in order to keep my life reasonably simple so that I can function on a day-to-day basis.

I probably have other value-based axioms as well... I don't think this is a definitive list.

Here are some personal observations, conclusions, and life rules which are relevant, and have been developed from those axioms in some way:

1. My own happiness is increased by the happiness of those around me
2. Society and Humanity are worthwhile entities in their own right
3. Vengeance is petty. Worrying about the rewards and punishments of others decreases my happiness (but bear axiom 3 in mind )
4. A good deed really can be its own reward
5. Intellectual honesty makes me happy
6. Perfect justice is not attainable

So I choose not to be concerned whether or not Hitler was punished in proportion to his crimes, because perfect justice is not attainable, and Hitler can't do any more harm to me, to other people, to Society, or to Humanity.

I choose to aspire, because that is more likely to increase my happiness, the happiness of others, and the wellbeing of Society and Humanity.

The apparent fact that at some time in the future all will be dust does concern me sometimes when I sink into depression... but I attempt to resolve this issue by considering the sum of goals over time. The total "goodness" in the Universe at ay particular time isn't particularly important, but the sum of "goodness" over the Universe's entire history is.

Even though all will become dust, it is still better at that time for there to have been some past goodness than otherwise.

There is also my dilemma of what if I'm wrong, and there really is a hell. I surely don't want to spend eternity there and this frightens me enough that I am borderline and keep hoping there will be some divine revelation that reassures me and gives me some sort of hope.

...

Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity? The very possibility that they might be right when they say there is a hell, despite the lack of evidence is something that bothers me..

The thought of eternal damnation is surely a concern to all rational people.

But... assuming the existence of God, Heaven, and Hell - what is Hell, exactly? What causes one to enter Hell? What causes one to enter Heaven?

You may be interested in the works of Christian theologians, both Catholic and Protestant. Peter Kreeft is an excellent source of intellectual apologetics for Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. His article on Faith has been a comfort to me in the face of the question of Hell.

Essentially, I believe that if God exists, He will not punish me for intellectual honesty, that if I remain open to Salvation through Christ, that if on death I discover the reality of God and choose at that instant to embrace it with my whole Heart, Mind, and Soul, that I will be Saved, regardless of honest intellectual doubts during my life.

Call it a loophole if you will, but it's not unsupported by Christian theology.

 

[Pete]

Also on the question of Hell...

If a course of personal intellectual honesty folows a path that may, according to some view, lead to eternal punishment, then what do we do?

If we follow a course of intellectual dishonesty in order to avoid eternal punishment, we're in a Catch 22.
We're deciding that the actions God desires of us are not apparent to our own intellect, but this means that we have no reliable way of determining what God actually does desire of us... how do we know that eternal punishment will not result from eating seafood, or eating meat on Fridays, or failing to give away all material wealth?

The only conclusion I could come to is that intellectual honesty is paramount - that the best we can do is follow a course of honesty, and if that leads to eternal damnation it is against natural justice - it would be like being punished by your boss for failing to complete an assignment that according to your honest understanding and despite your repeated enquiries was never allocated to you.

 

[Cyperium]

§outh§tar:

I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brain to work.

I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

I received nothing I wanted.

I received everything I needed.

-------------------------------

It's a unknown author, but I think it is a helpful thing to keep in mind.

Faith may seem far away by now. But it isn't.

 

[Godless]

*I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for strenghth and found out I had to work out in order to have it!. God didn't provide strength by magic, nor by being a sloth in a couch did I automatically receive strength from god, so I had to work for it.

*I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for wisdom, and found out that wisdom does not come automatically, god did not provide wisdom, the desire to learn and be tought provided wisdom, wisdom does not come automatically from god.

*I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brain to work.

I asked for prosperity, and by human nature I aquired the knowledge to work and save my profits to bestow prosperity, god does not provide you with the knowledge to be prosperous, if it did, the whole world would be rich, this is not the case, god provided you with nothing.

*I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

Dangers are a part of life, god has not provided me with courage, courage is part of my character, not a gift from some fantazy, fact is what is more couragious than accepting the fact that god does not exist? that I don't need a bench to lean upon, that is courageous to take responsibility for my own actions.

*I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

Life has put me in situations where I must be patient. God has not provided a damn thing to be patient for, only natural life, patience is learnt not a given, life puts you in situations, not an non-existent entity, or one with questionable existence.

*I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

If god was real, why are there troubled people?. God did not give me love, love is an emotion, I learnt love, love is somthing natural, not mystical as most thiest claim.

*I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

If the above be true, there wouldnt be so many POOR theist around the world, god has never provided me with opportunities, only opportunities to make tv-evangelist rich, I look for my own opportunities, I don't ask for nothing of god, god does not provide you with nothing, only illusions.

*I received nothing I wanted.

No shiet, god does not give a shiet about you, you are insignificant, to some one so mighty.

*I received everything I needed.

You recieved everything you went and worked for, if you sat on your ass and did nothing you would have nothing.

G.

 

[SKULLZ]

§outh§tar:

I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brain to work.

I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

I received nothing I wanted.

I received everything I needed.

-------------------------------

It's a unknown author, but I think it is a helpful thing to keep in mind.

Faith may seem far away by now. But it isn't.

Ive had all of those things and i never needed to ask god for them!,last time i prayed was just when requested at school when i was really young,you could refuse but you would get punished.

I never got the whole thing,you get pushed in a school with it,i used to question it even then,all i got was stupid answers to my questions,
i was about 6 years old when i asked "if god made us,who made god?"
i then got brought to the front of the class for the others to answer my question to make me look stupid,they didnt know really but the answer was "he made himself"
and in my childlike mind i was trying to imagine something putting itself together lol.

Ahhhh well,there ya go,seemed like a load of shite to me then,still a load of shite to me now .

 

[Cyperium]

*I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for strenghth and found out I had to work out in order to have it!. God didn't provide strength by magic, nor by being a sloth in a couch did I automatically receive strength from god, so I had to work for it.

I don't think that it was that kind of strength that he asked for.

*I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for wisdom, and found out that wisdom does not come automatically, god did not provide wisdom, the desire to learn and be tought provided wisdom, wisdom does not come automatically from god.

I think that God can lead us to wisdom, I don't think that He would pull a "switch" in our head. Maybe a "switch" in our life though...

*I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brain to work.

I asked for prosperity, and by human nature I aquired the knowledge to work and save my profits to bestow prosperity, god does not provide you with the knowledge to be prosperous, if it did, the whole world would be rich, this is not the case, god provided you with nothing.

Prosperity doesn't need to come with money. To be successfull doesn't mean to be rich (but our society may lead us to believe that).

*I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

Dangers are a part of life, god has not provided me with courage, courage is part of my character, not a gift from some fantazy, fact is what is more couragious than accepting the fact that god does not exist? that I don't need a bench to lean upon, that is courageous to take responsibility for my own actions.

You should take responsibility for your actions.

Sure dangers are a part of life, but many dangers can be avoided.

*I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

Life has put me in situations where I must be patient. God has not provided a damn thing to be patient for, only natural life, patience is learnt not a given, life puts you in situations, not an non-existent entity, or one with questionable existence.

You say that life has put you into situations where you have to wait, but life has not put you in anything other than life. Does your room put you in front of the computer? Sure the computer is a part of your room. Life is the "room" where we experiance reality. God can lead us in reality (or in life) to find what we need.

*I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

If god was real, why are there troubled people?. God did not give me love, love is an emotion, I learnt love, love is somthing natural, not mystical as most thiest claim.

I don't claim love to be something mystical. I agree that love is natural. Maybe the most natural. Accepting people as a part of your life.

I can't tell you why there are troubled people. Some got lost, some followed people that got lost, some were deceived, some manipulated, some "fell into bad ground" and some into "good ground". But troubled people can be helped, I believe that love is the cure for most people that are troubled. People that feel that they don't belong.

*I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

If the above be true, there wouldnt be so many POOR theist around the world, god has never provided me with opportunities, only opportunities to make tv-evangelist rich, I look for my own opportunities, I don't ask for nothing of god, god does not provide you with nothing, only illusions.

Maybe the favor isn't to "get rich". For some people, being poor can be a blessing.

*I received nothing I wanted.

No shiet, god does not give a shiet about you, you are insignificant, to some one so mighty.

God understand that we are weak. He let the punishment come step-by-step so that we get time to repent.

Gods enormous strength makes Him gentle, and He leads us with a light hand.

*I received everything I needed.

You recieved everything you went and worked for, if you sat on your ass and did nothing you would have nothing.

G.

You can't just sit down and do nothing, and expect you get everything you need. Of course you have to get out and live life, but along the way God can teach what we need by introducing situations. I think that's what the "poem (?)" is all about, that God rarely just pull a switch in our heads, but that He lets things happen to us that can teach us what we need.


1 Corinthians 2:6
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Cyperium]

Ive had all of those things and i never needed to ask god for them!,last time i prayed was just when requested at school when i was really young,you could refuse but you would get punished.

I never got the whole thing,you get pushed in a school with it,i used to question it even then,all i got was stupid answers to my questions,
i was about 6 years old when i asked "if god made us,who made god?"
i then got brought to the front of the class for the others to answer my question to make me look stupid,they didnt know really but the answer was "he made himself"
and in my childlike mind i was trying to imagine something putting itself together lol.

Ahhhh well,there ya go,seemed like a load of shite to me then,still a load of shite to me now .

Maybe you still imagine God as someone who put himself together? As we have grown from child to adult, so have our understanding of God. He isn't a old guy sitting on a cloud to me, I don't think that He is to you either if you really think about it.

By the way, do you really think He was "made"?

 

[Godless]

Strenghth wether physical or character comes from experience of life, not some mystical god.

Wisdom comes from life experience not some mystical god, god the entity you speak off does not lead one to wisdom, god is the easy answer when one is confronted with an unknown.

To be prosperous, in any society that has ever has existed always pertains to having more than others, what ever defenition you would like to give this one word "prosperous" it still pertains to monetary wealth.

Courage comes from one's own character not some mystical god. That was the point I was trying to make. Yes one should try to avoid dangerous cituations, and yes one should take responsibilities for one's own actions.

You say that life has put you into situations where you have to wait, but life has not put you in anything other than life. Does your room put you in front of the computer? Sure the computer is a part of your room. Life is the "room" where we experiance reality. God can lead us in reality (or in life) to find what we need.

This does not make any sense?

What other experience can a man experience other than life?.

I don't claim love to be something mystical. I agree that love is natural. Maybe the most natural. Accepting people as a part of your life.

Here we are in full agreement.

Maybe the favor isn't to "get rich". For some people, being poor can be a blessing.

I have yet to meet some begger, or a hungry person call his cituation a "blessing".

Gods enormous strength makes Him gentle, and He leads us with a light hand.

Are we reading the same bible?.

So why a benevolent god demand one belief and have faith upon him with the threat of HELL if one don't believe in him or have faith?.

Does not sound too gentle to me, but a scenic and a mad-man.

Of course you have to get out and live life, but along the way God can teach what we need by introducing situations.

God does not control any situation, unless you believe that he does, I don't think he/it/she/or whatever even exists. So random situations in life just happen, it is how one deals with situations that differ from our beliefs. You for example may pray like hell the plane does not hit the ground, I on the other hand be looking for a way out of the plane!!. And hopefully survive.

Godless.

 

[§outh§tar]

I have yet to meet some begger, or a hungry person call his cituation a "blessing".

Meet some Christians.

So why a benevolent god demand one belief and have faith upon him with the threat of HELL if one don't believe in him or have faith?.

Obviously such a God would only appear gentle to those who believed they were on his good side. The rest of us are screwed.

I don't think he/it/she/or whatever even exists.

We gather that from your name!

 

[§outh§tar]

1 Corinthians 2:6
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

I thought you admitted that the Bible is flawed and that it is not the source of wisdom/knowledge, whatever you want to call it.

Why do you then contradict yourself and quote from a flawed Book?

 

[§outh§tar]

§outh§tar:

I asked for strength and God gave me difficulties to make me strong.

I asked for wisdom and God gave me problems to solve.

I asked for prosperity and God gave me brawn and brain to work.

I asked for courage and God gave me dangers to overcome.

I asked for patience and God placed me in situations where I was forced to wait.

I asked for love and God gave me troubled people to help.

I asked for favors and God gave me opportunities.

I received nothing I wanted.

I received everything I needed.

-------------------------------

It's a unknown author, but I think it is a helpful thing to keep in mind.

Faith may seem far away by now. But it isn't.

Godless has pretty much answered the first half for me so..

Do you mean faith in the Christian God (Jesus)? Again, I thought you admitted the Bible is flawed? Why do you continue to believe in a flawed Book, as Persol asked earlier?

 

[§outh§tar]

I think that you have just reached the point where you realized that you want a *personal* and *not* an *institutionalized* relationship with God. An institutionalized belief is regarding your person, but it is not personal.

Personal.. institutionalized. I thought I knew the difference..

This is a dangerous position to be, since if you give up the insitutionalized belief, you have no safe (" ") nest to go back to. Once you decide for your belief in God to be personal, there is only room for you and God in it. And this is fearsome territory to tread.

Supposing there is a God. I knew not of any other God apart from the Christian one. Since we parted ways, I don't know of any other God. I am willing to have *some* measure of faith (won't be as zealous as before), but I am going to need some extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary God.

But don't be angry with those who persist in their institutionalized belief. They just haven't overcome their fear of having a personal belief.

Well, you'd think now that I gave up Christianity they'd at least take a more objective look at things for themselves. Instead they thing I'm deluded and they keep telling me to hang in there. If that isn't frustrating then..

Why would anyone want to believe in a Book they acknowledge to be flawed? Seems like sheep mentality, but I wouldn't be one to talk..

 

[§outh§tar]

Yes, you can't force it.

Listen to yourself.

I don't say that you should accept the wrong as right.

We have to give in to the idea of God (in the moment) just not saying that we believe in God, but actually believe.

He is knocking - let Him in.

You are speaking as if it's ever so clear when it's obvious that it isn't. If it was as you say, I obviously woundn't be having this thread. You speak as if God is so personal that I should know Him right away, but there are obviously many 'versions' of God out there. Your aim is to therefore show me that YOUR God deserves my continued devotion. Good luck.

Sure you can do something.

I don't think God would look away from someone that has done his best.

Not what Jesus says in the Bible. Pouring out of wrath and indignation is more like it.

Maybe you shouldn't base all your belief on the Bible? Maybe you should have better alternatives as to what to do?

Like?

And don't say "listen to yourself" because I addressed the folly of that above.

Cause it seems that you are arguing with yourself as to why you shouldn't believe. Maybe you should stop that, and look at what you can believe, before you loose it all.

You misunderstand. I argued with myself on why I SHOULD believe the reports of the New Testament and found that continuing to do so would be intellectually dishonest and supremely ignorant.

 

[Persol]

But any error that he finds is certainly based upon his perspective, only his perspective, and so I'm free to reject

What is that, cop-out number 3?

I could say the same thing about your interpretation of the Bible, and say that it's a metaphor for death... and nothing more.

But my question is, how exactly is 'counting' based on perspective. Have you actually READ the Bible? It states things as facts which are just pure wrong or self contradictory.... no 'perspective' needed.

With the writings of the Bible, our perspective of each book must be differenct.

Ah, cop-out #4. So the individual pieces are consistent, but the whole is not? Sorry, but at the very least it is partially wrong... yet you keep those sections in the Bible. More importantly 'somebody' has to decide which parts are right and which are wrong.... and history has shown that this is man (who often chooses incorrectly) and not God.

 

[§outh§tar]

Peter and others, I will respond as soon as I can. Hopefully my computer is fixed this weekend.

 

[anonymous2]

Why would anyone want to believe in a Book they acknowledge to be flawed? Seems like sheep mentality, but I wouldn't be one to talk..

Like I said before, I believe they believe in the Bible still because, despite its "apparent" flaws, there seem to contain some good, perhaps even amazing things. Look at how big the Bible is and how long it took to write it all. People see all sorts of correlations with such a book. And since the book itself claims it's inspired (overall), such correlations/coincidences are not regarded as such, but rather regarded as divine. But with a book as big as the Bible, why is it all amazing that there are coincidences? I think if someone thoroughly analyzed other ancient books, they too could find patterns, etc, if they really believed the books were from God. Ultimately, I think it's figuratively the worship of coincidences/patterns. "Look at all this fulfilled prophecy, it has to be from God." That depends on whether we trust the Bible writers or not. Did Jesus fulfill all those "Messianic prophecies" referred to in the NT, or were some of them not even considered prophetic? Was Jesus just some guy who was born in Bethlehem and thought himself the Messiah? Look at others who thought they were the Messiah, like Bar Kochba. Maybe some of these people were truly sincere. Like take a look at Micah 5:2 which the NT quotes. According to http://www.jewsforjudaism.com, it wasn't referring to the CITY of Bethlehem, but rather a clan, David's clan. All the verse, to them, appears to be saying is that someone will come forth from David's clan, not that he'll necessarily be born in the CITY of Bethlehem (though it doesn't exclude such).

Take a look at this verse:

1 Chron 2:54 The sons of Salma; Bethlehem, and the Netophathites, Ataroth, the house of Joab, and half of the Manahethites, the Zorites.

1 Chron 4:4 And Penuel the father of Gedor, and Ezer the father of Hushah. These [are] the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.

So now Ephratah and Bethlehem are people? I thought it was only a town? Firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem? So these are people, not necessarily a town?

Notice that it says the descendants of Salma: Bethlehem, then it goes on to list groups of people, not towns. Remember, Bethlehem meant "house of bread", like the part of the verse that says "the house of Joab". What's the word used for "house"? The same word that is used for "beth", that is "Beyth". So, is this verse is referring to clans, not towns, since it says Bethlehem, "house of bread", and Beth Yow'ab, "house of Joab"?

I guess what I'm saying is, you can look at interpretations besides the one you were used to. Do I know the Jews are right about Micah 5:2? No. But it does open up the Bible somewhat. What you thought was a sure prophecy might no longer be so sure.


People think "Why would the Bible authors lie?" But this question could be asked of any author of religious writings. I have a book called the Desatir which claims to be ancient prophecies of people back in ancient Persia. Funny thing that nobody can produce an ancient copy of this book which dates before these things supposedly happened, but no matter. If the Christians are right, this book is pretty much a LIE and/or Satanic. "Pious fraud" is not a rare thing. Look at all the apocryphal books which aren't in the Bible. Were all these authors, strictly speaking, "liars"? Or were they writing things to build up faith, attributing their writings to people who were believed to be apostles or prophets? Were they using literal language to express symbolic truths?

Anyway, enough for now.

 

[Godless]

*Meet some Christians.

LOL!!!LOL That cracked me up!!.

Godless.

 

[Persol]

If the Christians are right, this book is pretty much a LIE and/or Satanic. "Pious fraud" is not a rare thing. Look at all the apocryphal books which aren't in the Bible.

Or look at all the other religious texts, both christian and non-christian.

 

[Stinger]

Halcyon, who is Jesus Christ?
Why are there so many books from around the world that tell about him?
What if he came back to earth in his 2nd Coming, and stood right in front of your face.
Why did about 240 authors write about him appearing in the americas?

 

[786]

Well that's the second person who's invited me to Islam since I started this thread.

I am not asking you to embrace Islam, although that would be good, but just to study about it. As Anonymous said that if you are not a Christian that doesn't mean you should embrace Islam. My hopes are that after studying Islam, you will realize the truth.

Peace be unto you