With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[water]

SouthStar,


I am quite sure that what happened to you is this:


You have had some inner struggle.

Then, you confused your struggle with yourself with a struggle against God.

You gave up on God to justify your struggle.

In this, you have lost the relationship you had with God.


Now, you give rationalizations like

I ask God for something selfless and don't get it. The answer I get: You didn't "truely believe".

and

Yup, it's my fault entirely; either I lost faith or I didn't have it to begin with. Cop out..

Of course not. Since it's "God's Word" and entirely true, why should there be any reason to think about it?

You are only fighting with yourself.
You are not fighting with God. You are not fighting with the Bible. You are not fighting against Christianity. You are not fighting against anyone here on this forum or with other people.
You are only fighting with yourself.

Stop presenting this fight that you have with yourself as if it were a fight with God, or Christ, or religion, or whatever thing or person other than you.

 

[Halcyon]

SouthStar, are you being sarcastic or is that what God really said.

Perhpas he's talking about John 14:13-14?

 

[fahrenheit 451]

is'nt it strange that the religious, can find no fault with there god,(blind faith) it has to be a fault, with the man.
mass hynosis or what, brainwashed or what, delusional or what, really really sad.
and un-fucking-believable.

 

[Persol]

With sufficient questioning, you should be able to delegate that responsibility to Jesus.

And you don't find it odd that the only people who 'find' Jesus are those who are told about him by Christians? A Jew will say the same thing about God, and other religions will follow as well.

Your idea of Jesus is based on The Bible, whether you want to admit it or not. Without the Bible you would most likely not be Christian and most likely have no idea who Jesus is. You're idea of who Jesus was is also determined by one thing... the Bible. The same book in which plenty of other faults and exagerrations have been pointed out... yet you assume that the jesus part is gospel (pun intended) because you 'believe' it. Circular reasoning anyone?

 

[Persol]

Stop presenting this fight that you have with yourself as if it were a fight with God, or Christ, or religion, or whatever thing or person other than you.

And you wonder why people bash religion....

You are so fucking short sighted that you can't accept that he made a choice, and it was that your religion is not supportable. So it must be him that's messed up... not your religion.

Well sir, I must tell you that it is actually you that is messed up. You have confused your inner struggle with your relationship with atheism. Athesim is right, but you have 'issues' that you are confusing. I suggest you see a doctor to help sort out these issues.

 

[okinrus]

You're idea of who Jesus was is also determined by one thing... the Bible. The same book in which plenty of other faults and exagerrations have been pointed out... yet you assume that the jesus part is gospel (pun intended) because you 'believe' it. Circular reasoning anyone?

I'm little confused over your use of "gospel" and what you mean by "Jesus part." Well, what I wrote before was that the Bible provides examples, insights, and teachings; but the Bible is not all teachings, insights, and examples: that being withheld to be God. Since the Bible, in fact, says there is no teacher but God, no example greater than God, the belief is consistent.

Now the difference between circular reasoning and consistency is how one presents his arguments. If I were to tell you that I believed solely based upon the Bible and what the Bible says in of itself, that, unqualified, would be circular. If I merely read "this is true" and belief thusly, I would be duly guilty of circular reasoning. On the hand, if I tell you I believe in the Bible and what the Bible says of my belief, it is not circular; it shows that belief in the Bible is reasonable for rational inquiry. This is true even if I was somehow inspired while reading the Bible. Does the inspiration come from the Bible? No, but surely God may use the Bible to inspire people.

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,


I am quite sure that what happened to you is this:


You have had some inner struggle.

Then, you confused your struggle with yourself with a struggle against God.

You gave up on God to justify your struggle.

In this, you have lost the relationship you had with God.

I assure you, I had no "inner struggle". How you reached this conclusion is beyond me truly. I was doubtlessly a fanatic and overzealous in the faith, NOTHING could have pried me from my confidence. If you had been following my posts, you would have noticed that I haven't "given up" on God. In fact, I hope there is a God (who reveals Himself) but I simply cannot in honesty believe in the God of (orthodox) Christianity with all the discrepancies in the New Testament.

You are only fighting with yourself.
You are not fighting with God. You are not fighting with the Bible. You are not fighting against Christianity. You are not fighting against anyone here on this forum or with other people.
You are only fighting with yourself.

Stop presenting this fight that you have with yourself as if it were a fight with God, or Christ, or religion, or whatever thing or person other than you.

Again, how you reached this conclusion is beyond me. I of all people should know if I am "fighting" with myself or the Bible, or anything for that matter. I am not fighting with anything, I am not forcing anyone to join me. I am only accepting that I (personally) cannot believe the things I believed without stupendous ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

I do wonder how all this turned out to be my 'fault'...

 

[§outh§tar]

I'm little confused over your use of "gospel" and what you mean by "Jesus part." Well, what I wrote before was that the Bible provides examples, insights, and teachings; but the Bible is not all teachings, insights, and examples: that being withheld to be God. Since the Bible, in fact, says there is no teacher but God, no example greater than God, the belief is consistent.

Now the difference between circular reasoning and consistency is how one presents his arguments. If I were to tell you that I believed solely based upon the Bible and what the Bible says in of itself, that, unqualified, would be circular. If I merely read "this is true" and belief thusly, I would be duly guilty of circular reasoning. On the hand, if I tell you I believe in the Bible and what the Bible says of my belief, it is not circular; it shows that belief in the Bible is reasonable for rational inquiry. This is true even if I was somehow inspired while reading the Bible. Does the inspiration come from the Bible? No, but surely God may use the Bible to inspire people.

As you claim the God "inspires" people through the Bible, can you at least accept the possibility that God had no (direct) hand in the penning of the Bible? MAYBE a few books (I'm being generous here), but certainly the historical inaccuracies, anachronisms, theological contradictions... all traced back to a God who is not the God of confusion?

You are treating the Bible as if it's one Book instead of a collection. A collection that at times preaches original sin at times, and at other times denounces such a doctrine.

And also by your statement:

Does the inspiration come from the Bible? No, but surely God may use the Bible to inspire people.

We can only conclude that if a person does not "accept" the Bible, it is then God's fault for not inspiring the person... in which case the person cannot be punished for that which he had no responsibility/power over.

 

[§outh§tar]

is'nt it strange that the religious, can find no fault with there god,(blind faith) it has to be a fault, with the man.
mass hynosis or what, brainwashed or what, delusional or what, really really sad.
and un-fucking-believable.

It's hope. Everyone wants to have a lifeline that is not even there..

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar, are you being sarcastic or is that what God really said. Well, once I had a voice say "trust me" but who I did not know who. And I can assure you that you will have to struggle, that even when given signs of God's presence, unless if one is willing to draw them to mind those signs of God's presence will fade away.

What can we categorize then as "signs of God's presence"?

Persol, I've never met a Christian who was able to accept everything only by the Bible, nor will any Christian tell you that the Bible is the *ultimate* source of their belief.[

You should get out more often.. look around.

With sufficient questioning, you should be able to delegate that responsibility to Jesus. But you are correct about building a house. The builder wants to build something solid, but it also very much up to taste and refinement. A bomb-shelter is well-constructed; it is not wear I want to live.

And this Jesus comes from the Synoptics (and New Testament). If the Synoptics can't even agree on the details of His life, are written by those wishing to propagate their beliefs (hence embellishments and consequently discrepancies), and even claim that "saints arose from the dead and went to Jerusalem" after His death , then what reason have you to ignore these various problems?

 

[§outh§tar]

Because it doesn't replace having a living relationship with God...

If it was selfless, why does it matter whether you "got it"? Chances are, you already had it!

Those words above, do you sincerely think it's a blank checque? Is God saying he's a slot machine?

Because it doesn't replace having a living relationship with God...

You missed my point. The New Testament claims Jesus is the ONLY way, it claims exclusiveness. After all, many others not of the Christian faith also give the same "living relationship with God" excuse you give me. And yet the God of the Mormons is not the God of the Baptists.. or even the Catholics. I found a table of discrepancies between the various sects all claiming to be true Christians, I'll see if I can find it for you.

Also if it doesn't replace this "living relationship", what things do you categorize as (necessary for) a living relationship?

If it was selfless, why does it matter whether you "got it"? Chances are, you already had it!

When I prayed to the Christian God and begged Him to give me some faith, any faith at all that I may continue to believe Him, He obviously didn't answer me. Now was that selfless? Or do you claim that I already "had it"? When I asked Him to give me wisdom to understand the contradictions in the story of His life and the NT in general, He obviously didn't answer me. Or should I have been dishonest with myself and pretend the problems weren't there so that I could continue the charade of having a "living relationship" with God? Or was asking for wisdom to understand His Word too selfish? Or did I already have it?

Those words above, do you sincerely think it's a blank checque? Is God saying he's a slot machine?

Matthew 7
7. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8. For everyone that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

9. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10. Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father, which is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

--------

I think it's quite clear by Jesus own words that God FAILED to make good on His promise. When I asked for wisdom, what did He give me? 0.

(Of course there are many such promises strewen throughout the New Testament, NO conditions are attached. Instead of continuing just read through the main points here: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/prayer.html)

 

[Cyperium]

I think it's quite clear by Jesus own words that God FAILED to make good on His promise. When I asked for wisdom, what did He give me? 0.

Did He? It sounds like you didn't accept His gift though.

Instead of waiting patiently for His promise to be fulfilled you go here and complain that you got nothing.

 

[§outh§tar]

Did He? It sounds like you didn't accept His gift though.

Instead of waiting patiently for His promise to be fulfilled you go here and complain that you got nothing.

So I had to wait patiently for God to finally decide to answer my meager request, even though it would dictate my ENTIRE salvation.

That is like the people who say even though Jesus promised to return a century after His resurrection, we just have to remain patient because He actually meant more than 2000 years later.

I will be going into more detail on that later on, right now my computer is ruined and I don't have regular access to one. Also explains why I don't respond to posts as promptly as I used to..

Or what of the family who prays for the safe return of a loved one in a foreign land? When they learn that he has died will you ignorantly tell them that they didn't wait patiently? Or will you say they didn't have enough faith?

 

[786]

Southstar, did you become an atheist or something? or do you still believe in God, but you are not a christian anymore? I'm just confused.

Peace be unto you

 

[Medicine*Woman]

§outh§tar: You missed my point. The New Testament claims Jesus is the ONLY way, it claims exclusiveness. After all, many others not of the Christian faith also give the same "living relationship with God" excuse you give me. And yet the God of the Mormons is not the God of the Baptists.. or even the Catholics. I found a table of discrepancies between the various sects all claiming to be true Christians, I'll see if I can find it for you.

Also if it doesn't replace this "living relationship", what things do you categorize as (necessary for) a living relationship?

When I prayed to the Christian God and begged Him to give me some faith, any faith at all that I may continue to believe Him, He obviously didn't answer me. Now was that selfless? Or do you claim that I already "had it"? When I asked Him to give me wisdom to understand the contradictions in the story of His life and the NT in general, He obviously didn't answer me. Or should I have been dishonest with myself and pretend the problems weren't there so that I could continue the charade of having a "living relationship" with God? Or was asking for wisdom to understand His Word too selfish? Or did I already have it?
*************
M*W: SouthStar, I see that you are getting stronger in this process. I'm happy for you. I want to remind you that Jesus wrote no words of his own. Paul wrote most of the NT or commissioned its writing (Gospels), so no one truly knows what Jesus actually said. Paul never knew Jesus much less what Jesus might have said decades before.
*************
SouthStar: Matthew 7
7. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
*************
M*W: You did this. You asked. You searched. You found. You knocked, and the door was opened to you.
*************
SouthStar: 8. For everyone that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
*************
M*W: You received, but you didn't didn't like what you received. It was so diametrically opposed to what you THOUGHT and had been PROGRAMMED to believe your entire life. It's quite understandable how you were so confused and in denial about it.
*************
SouthStar: 9. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
*************
M*W: I understand how you identify yourself with this verse. You were asking to be spiritually nourished, but what you received was something inanimate or lifeless. You are a man of truth, and the truth is what you received. The analogy of bread and stone have spiritual connotations. In the OT, the Ark of the Covenant allegedly turned gold into a white powder substance which in turn could be made into bread (shewbread), and the tribe of the Hibiru that wondered in the desert those '40' years ate the shewbread they called manna.They used the white powder substance like flour, and it made a hard stone-like bread.
*************
SouthStar: 10. Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
*************
M*W: There is symbolism here. A fish represents Jesus or a follower of Jesus, or a Christian (not one and the same thing); however, the serpent represents wisdom. I understand this verse to mean if someone asks for a fish (to be a Christian), and they're given a serpent, that means they received the wisdom to not be controlled by some outdated dying demigod savior religion.
*************
SouthStar: 11. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father, which is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?
*************
M*W: You asked and you received wisdom. That wisdom was right inside your mind all along. You were probably in denial the entire time you were a Christian.
*************
SouthStar: I think it's quite clear by Jesus own words that God FAILED to make good on His promise. When I asked for wisdom, what did He give me? 0.
*************
M*W: Remember, Jesus' words were not really Jesus' true words -- they were Paul's. You did ask for wisdom, SouthStar, and you received it. It will all become clear to you as time moves on.

 

[Cyperium]

So I had to wait patiently for God to finally decide to answer my meager request, even though it would dictate my ENTIRE salvation.

Everything must happen in it's time.

Maybe you never lost your faith? Maybe you just choose to ignore it?

Maybe you have to do something?

God has heard your prayer, no doubt about it. Now it's up to you.

 

[mustafhakofi]

god has ignored his prayers, else he would not be saying, what he is would he, cyperium. think before you speak.

 

[water]

SouthStar,


The simplest way to put it:

Take an introductory psychology book, look up Kohlberg's stages of moral development.
Here's a short summary:

I. PRECONVENTIONAL LEVEL
Stage 1: punishment-obedience orientation: "Morality is what you can get away with."
Stage 2: instrumental-exchange orientation: "Obey rules to obtain rewards or fawors."


II. CONVENTIONAL LEVEL
Stage 3: good child orientation: "Obey rules to get approval."
Stage 4: law and order orientation: "Obey laws because they maintain the social order."


III. POSTCONVENTIONAL LEVEL
Stage 5: social-contract orientation: "Moral reasoning reflects belief in democratically accepted laws."
Stage 6: universal ethics orientation: "Moral reasoning reflects individual conscience."

It is important to know that an individual does not necessary come to stage 6 in his moral development; many people remain even at stage 2 or 3 their whole life.

***

I have brought up this psychological explanation to shed some light on "overzealous" and "fanatic" religionists. The way they rigidly stick to the religious dogma puts them morally on the preconventional level.

Younger children, for example, do not care about intention: if a child breaks *several* plates, while wanting to help the mother wash the dishes, children judge this as *worse* than breaking *one* plate out of anger because it has to help the mother. All that counts is the number of broken plates, *regardless* of intent and context.

-- And this is the exact way of thinking that religious fanatics have: "You have to believe, or you'll go to hell", or, "If your prayer hasn't come true, this means that you haven't prayed hard enough."

There is ***no*** argument one could make to counter that position. There is no way of talking to these people.

It is only after some time passes, that maybe they will upgrade to the next stage. Then, some arguments could fall on fertile ground.


I don't mean to point fingers -- I am just making my argument -- but I think that what happened in SouthStar's case is that he has found himself between two stages (3-4, with a lot of 2 when it comes to declaring his religion), being aware of the former and its faults, yet unsure of what the next stage should be.


I don't really know what to say. Maybe studying some general psychology may help.
As far as relgious arguments are concerned: I don't think there really are any more arguments to give, so much has been said. It is not that the arguments were bad or faulty, it is more likely that you don't know how to apply them -- as they are something completely foreign to your former zeal. It will most likely take some time before those arguments will be of use to you.

Although one may have great faith in reason and rational thinking, actually accepting rational explanations is everything but quick and simple. It's not a game of questions and answers.


Maybe the thing you need to learn is to have some more patience with yourself first.
Things will come, in time. But there are no shortcuts in search of the equilibrium of the soul.

 

[cato]

My thoughts in a nutshell--don’t worry about it, live virtuously, and if there is a got you will get into heaven (or Valhalla, or nirvana, or whatever) and if there is no god then at least the people around you will be happy (which should in turn make you happy). I don’t worry about anything beyond that.

 

[okinrus]

Southstar, assuming that you need wisdom, then it seems to be a reasonable request. But God does not always give a gift until one has asked many times for it, and in your case maybe wisdom is not require. Maybe you should be asking for what is needed? I think in Luke even there is the story of a women who had to ask a cruel judge many times for a favor.