Wimpish Society

[Baron Max]

It's incumbent upon us to adapt to the world we have made.

Yeah, I agree ....and we're doin' it by becoming wimps! It's the world that we created and so we're having to adapt to it. See? Fuckin' bunch o' wimps!!

Baron Max

 

[Syzygys]

Hey Fraggle, here is a mental exercise for you. Imagine 2 generations from now down the road. The grandchildren of today's wimps. I think there will be a throwback, like there is always in these cases, just like an overstretched spring...

Obviously this wimpiness can't go on forever not to mention there is a possibility that the technological advantages come to a halt (via some catastrophy) thus these wimps have to stand up and survive...

Oh boy, but will they ever be able to do so???

P.S.: My friend's 20 year old spoiled daughter just out of beauty school couldn't hold a job for 3 weeks. Got fired for being late. Oh the horror, the horror!!! Showing up on time!!! What do we think what are they? Automatons???

 

[MetaKron]

I've got an excuse not to use sunscreen. It's because all of the people who would call it an "excuse" don't know nearly as much as they think that they do.

 

[Bells]

I've got an excuse not to use sunscreen. It's because all of the people who would call it an "excuse" don't know nearly as much as they think that they do.

Oh God.

What now?

You're going to say skin cancer does not exist and it is all a ruse to suit 'skin cancer inc.'?

Don't want to use sunscreen because you "know" as much as you think you do? Fine. Don't use it. But don't whine when you get sunburnt and then possibly find yourself having to have skin cancers removed a few years down the track.

And you want to know what I know about skin cancer? My father in law recently had a massive melanoma removed from his arm, leaving a huge dent in the tissue, because it was a malignant melanoma. His younger sister is currently battling cancer that has spread throughout her body and basically now only has a few months to live. What type of cancer did she first have and was not caught in time? Skin cancer. How did they get the skin cancers that now plague them? Never used sunscreen when they were young and they are very fair people. Now they know what it is and what caused it. So you're damn right that there is no excuse to not use it. Short of someone having a severe allergy to the stuff, you should put the damn stuff on when facing exposure to the sun. It is common sense to do so and it will save you and your family a lot of grief later on in life. One might say that we should consider ourselves educated enough to know better now days. You might disagree on mere principle (if you have any), but that's just you.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Heh!
Still not an excuse to not use sunscreen however. You only need a couple of minutes of bright sunlight to provide the required amount of vitamin D.

Really?

The human body can generate 10,000 to 12,000 international units (IU) of vitamin D from a half-hour of summer-sun exposure. The National Academies recommend that adults, depending on their age, get from 200 to 600 IU of the vitamin each day.

In practice, however, most people in the United States get a daily intake from food and sun exposure well below that recommended intake, especially during winter. People living in the United States and Europe or farther from the equator have trouble getting enough sun to maintain adequate blood concentrations of the vitamin. When people heed dermatologists' warnings about preventing skin cancer by limiting sun exposure and using sunscreen, they also reduce their vitamin D production.

Lots of aspects of modern society reduced sun exposure. For example work in office buildings contributes to a reduction in sun exposure and reduced vitamin D synthesis. So does the message from dermatologists to avoid sun as a way to lower the risk of skin cancer. This has led to a debate in medical circles about whether sun exposure increases or decreases net cancer risk. This debate has so upset the dermatologists that vitamin D researcher Michael Holick was forced out of Boston University's dermatology department since he veered too far from accepted orthodoxy among dermatologists about sun exposure. My own view is that moderate sun exposure most obviously decreases net cancer risk and that the evidence is building up to the point that science is going to vindicate Holick. http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002558.html

So sunscreen most definately could be increasing the risk of other cancers. Now the really funny thing is that we are not even sure if it helps with skin cancer!

Sunscreen increases cancer risk
A study, published in the US Journal of the National Cancer Institute, said that people who wore higher factor sunscreens tended to stay out much longer, because they felt protected from the risk of sunburn.

And a British biochemist has suggested that the cocktail of chemicals involved in sunscreens could be converted into "free radical" molecules, which could cause cell damage and lead to cancer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/411226.stm

People who use sun creams may not be getting the protection they expect and may even be doing themselves more harm than good, according to a new study.

This is because they have a false sense of security from applying sun barriers and spend too long in the sun.

Research published in the Journal of the (US) National Cancer Institute showed that children who wore suntan lotion of any strength were more likely to develop moles than children who did not.

The more moles someone has, the more likely they are to develop skin cancer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/236207.stm

Weinstock notes that 12 epidemiological studies of the relation of sunscreen use to melanoma risk have been published, with another study known to the author. Of these,

* Three showed a decreased risk of melanoma
* Four showed an increased risk
* Six were inconclusive
Controversy arises because we do not know whether melanoma is caused by exposure to UVB, UVA or both. Given that most sunscreens protect only against UVB, using a sunscreen may be of no value if melanoma is caused by UVA http://www.ynhh.org/healthlink/cancer/cancer_8_02.html

So studies are inconclusive about whether sunscreen even helps with skin cancer!

 

[MetaKron]

Oh God.

PLEASE don't orgasm in front of me. Dear God.

What now?

You're going to say skin cancer does not exist and it is all a ruse to suit 'skin cancer inc.'?

Actually, I'm going to say that you don't exist and that you personally are a ruse to support AIDS Inc.

Don't want to use sunscreen because you "know" as much as you think you do? Fine. Don't use it. But don't whine when you get sunburnt and then possibly find yourself having to have skin cancers removed a few years down the track.

And you want to know what I know about skin cancer? My father in law recently had a massive melanoma removed from his arm, leaving a huge dent in the tissue, because it was a malignant melanoma.

I'm sure you're the heap big expert now.

His younger sister is currently battling cancer that has spread throughout her body and basically now only has a few months to live. What type of cancer did she first have and was not caught in time? Skin cancer. How did they get the skin cancers that now plague them? Never used sunscreen when they were young and they are very fair people.

I'm sure you know the exact cause and effect by using your Godlike powers of observation and interpolation.

Now they know what it is and what caused it. So you're damn right that there is no excuse to not use it. Short of someone having a severe allergy to the stuff, you should put the damn stuff on when facing exposure to the sun. It is common sense to do so and it will save you and your family a lot of grief later on in life. One might say that we should consider ourselves educated enough to know better now days. You might disagree on mere principle (if you have any), but that's just you.

And of course you have to go to the personal slams because a man just COULDN'T possibly disagree with you on anything and be right.

 

[Bells]

Really?

So sunscreen most definately could be increasing the risk of other cancers. Now the really funny thing is that we are not even sure if it helps with skin cancer!




So studies are inconclusive about whether sunscreen even helps with skin cancer!

For the moment it is the best thing available to us, aside from not staying longer than a few minutes in the sun without being covered by clothes.

As to the links regarding how much it helps prevent skin cancer. The articles you provided merely said that people just tended to stay out longer when wearing higher level SPF sunscreens without reapplying it, usually every couple of hours, and more often if you go in the water. I've seen people go to the beach, slap on a thick layer before leaving and then never reapplying it. Amazingly they are suprised when they come home sunburnt 6 hours later.:bugeye:

Given that most sunscreens protect only against UVB, using a sunscreen may be of no value if melanoma is caused by UVA.
From your link

I'd believe it.

It did go on to say this however:

Although it is known that increased exposure to sun is a risk factor for melanoma, researchers are not sure which wavelength of ultraviolet radiation—UVA, UVB, or both—causes the cancer. If so, using sunscreen with a sun protection factor (SPF) of 15 or higher could be effective in preventing sunburn and therefore melanoma. However, Weinstock notes, the cause or "action spectrum" of melanoma remains unknown and to make that connection is perhaps premature.
Link

The article did say however that there are other factors that may affect one's chances of suffering from melanoma's. However, it also clearly stated that it was better to be safer than sorry and to take all current preventions currently available, including sunscreens.

After reviewing dozens of studies on the relationship between sunscreen use and melanoma, Weinstock concluded “the available evidence does not indicate a need to alter existing public health messages that encourage use of sunscreens, clothing and sun avoidance for melanoma protection.”

I found this to be interesting as well on that site:

Different types of ultraviolet (UV) waves reach the earth from the sun. Ultraviolet B causes sunburn and most sunscreens have been developed to block UVB rays. But UVA rays pose their own dangers. They are responsible for photoaging—the toughening and wrinkling of skin exposed to lots of sun. There are products that protect against UVA but you have to read labels to make sure. I tell my patients to look for sunscreens that contain either avobenzone, titanium dioxide or zinc oxide.

And as the site kept repeating, people need to alter their behaviour. Check what sunscreen you are using, avoid going out in the sun during the hottest times of the day when the sun's rays are known to be the strongest, sit in shade whenever possible (especially if you have young children) and reapply your sunscreen as directed and not just applying it once and then ignoring the fact that it does need to be reapplied.

From another one of your links, it basically advocates common sense. Using sunscreen does not mean that you should fry yourself in the sun.

"The concern that some people have is that they can convert the light energy into chemical energy, which is potentially damaging."

He and his colleagues are trying to model the effects of sunlight on human skin, looking at how the DNA might be changed.

Professor Jack Cuzick, head of the epidemiology unit at the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, said: "Obviously people would be more at risk if they didn't wear any sunscreen but they should not rely solely on sunscreen to protect themselves against the sun.

"If they do use a sunscreen they should make sure it has both UVA and UVB protection.

"This research does not change our advice that the best way to protect against skin cancer is to cover up and moderate your exposure to the sun."
Link

Even with sunscreen, you need to limit exposure to the sun. Common sense really.

Does using sunscreen make you a wimp (sorry trying to tie this back into this thread ).. well I don't think it does. But even if there were such a remote possibility, I'd rather be a wimp and have a less chance of contracting the disease than trying to not be a wimp and get the disease. And seeing that cancer is not something that is non-existent in my own family and in my husband's family as well, I make sure my son gets just the amount he needs for his absorption of Vitamin D and that the sunscreen we use is one that covers both UVA and UVB and he doesn't spend long in the sun. As even your articles have said, common sense. I'd rather be safer than sorry. If that makes me a wimp, then I am happily a wimp!

Metakron

Actually, I'm going to say that you don't exist and that you personally are a ruse to support AIDS Inc.

You are insane!

I believe that HIV exists and you do not. Leave it there. If you can't handle it, then that is your problem and yours alone.

If you feel the need to speak out about my believing HIV exists, I would suggest you take it to one of the many threads you have started on that very issue. I am giving you a stern warning here Meta. Do not think that I will allow you to troll through this particular forum and derail threads because you have a personal issue with me or my stance on HIV. There are other forums available if you wish to bitch about me or my stance on HIV. You are also free to complain to the Admin if you don't like me, etc.

 

[MetaKron]

I already HAVE complained to the admins about your rudeness and I think that you are the one who is about to receive a warning, Bells. For the love of God grow up.

Also, you are the one who started the references to my dissident views about AIDS, so stop being a hypocrite. OK, that's impossible. How about you stop letting people see that you're a hypocrite?

 

[Bells]

I already HAVE complained to the admins about your rudeness and I think that you are the one who is about to receive a warning, Bells. For the love of God grow up.

Also, you are the one who started the references to my dissident views about AIDS, so stop being a hypocrite. OK, that's impossible. How about you stop letting people see that you're a hypocrite?

I am very well aware that I was the one who brought up your dissident views on HIV. My warning came when I noticed your attempt to derail this discussion to suit your own purposes and I was warning you that it would not be appreciated or tolerated.

I don't give a crap if people think I am a hypocrite. You have complained? Good. Now lets move on shall we?

 

[MetaKron]

Whatever. You derailed it first.

 

[MetaKron]

OK, let's move on. So you're a screamer, Bells. Is there anything else that I didn't want to know about you?

 

[MetaKron]

You know, the people who make other people wimps include those who make all those dire warnings and all those who beat you down with their screaming.

 

[Bells]

OK, let's move on. So you're a screamer, Bells. Is there anything else that I didn't want to know about you?

Beg yours?

You know, the people who make other people wimps include those who make all those dire warnings and all those who beat you down with their screaming.

I think that is one's own actions and inactions that makes one a wimp. No one can make you into wimp.

For example, lets say someone dared you to jump off a cliff. Would you do it because refusing the dare would make you look like a wimp, keeping in mind the dire warnings from anyone with some common sense that jumping of a cliff could actually kill you? Funnily this actually happened in Australia recently, where a 21 year old was dared by his friends to jump off a cliff and the fool did it. He sparked a massive search and rescue mission when he failed to resurface and was feared drowned by his friends. Link

Now if you see someone you know being dared to jump off a cliff. Would you call him wimp if he refused the dare? Or would you be one of the "screamers" and tell him to not do it because he could end up dying?

As for listening to the dire warnings. In regards to skin cancer, I would be a fool not to, especially when my husband's aunt is now literally losing the battle with cancer, which had originally started as skin cancer. And also the fact that his father also had to remove a massive melanoma from his arm and is not undergoing chemo and radiation treatment. You're damn straight I am going to ensure my 16 month old wears sunscreen and does not stay in the sun for long. I too have had a few suspicious moles removed from my back, which appeared in my teens after many instances of really bad sunburn, and I am olive skinned. Does it make me a wimp? I don't care. Will it make my son into a wimp? Again, I don't care. I'd rather he be a wimp and not have to suffer the horrors my husband's aunt is going through at the moment, or the pain and suffering his father is going through.

I also stop him from leaping from the back of the couch because I don't want him to break any limbs. And I don't let him touch the poisonous cleaning fluid in the locked cabinet in the laundry because I don't want him to kill himself. I guess I'm strange that way.

 

[MetaKron]

That's the problem. You don't care about the consequences of your neurotic actions and ideas.

 

[Bells]

That's the problem. You don't care about the consequences of your neurotic actions and ideas.

How am I neurotic? Because I put sunscreen on my child and don't let him leap off things that will result in his either breaking his neck or limbs? You ever seen a baby with severe sun burn Meta? I have and I can assure you, I will do my best to ensure my child never has to go through the pain of bad sunburn. I've experienced it as a child and I would hate to imagine that kind of pain and discomfort in a baby. I also don't let him into the swimming pool by himself, nor do I leave him in the bath by himself.

I don't let him play with sharp knives and scissors as well.

But lets analyse my so called neurosis and their consequences. Am I neurotic in not wanting my son to come down with a disease that his family has shown itself prone to suffering? Now if it were a diseases that one could not prevent, then yes, one could say that my actions might be neurotic. However skin cancer is preventable for the most part.

So as a parent, it would be prudent for me to ensure that he takes as much precautions as possible, especially now as a child when his skin is the most sensitive, would it not? After all oh great Meta.. man of no neurosis .. wouldn't you wish to ensure your child remain as safe as possible?

And what are the consequences of my actions towards ensuring my son's well being and safety? Do tell Meta.

Are you neurotic when you wear a seatbelt when you get in a car? Or are you being cautious? And what are the possible consequences of you not wearing a seatbelt?

 

[Baron Max]

I think that is one's own actions and inactions that makes one a wimp. No one can make you into wimp.

Hmm ...a mother/parents can influence their children to do well in school, to be friendly and non-violent, yet they can't influence the little bastards to be fuckin' wimps???

How can they do well in one area of child-influence, yet be unable to do it in other areas of influence? You ain't makin' a lot of sense, Bells. Care to try again?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

That's the problem. You don't care about the consequences of your neurotic actions and ideas.

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder how many other people of the world do exactly the same things, and make exactly the same excuses for it?

My guess is many .....which is why we're becoming a nation/world of fuckin' wimps!!

Baron Max

 

[Syzygys]

Hmm ...a mother/parents can influence their children to do well in school, to be friendly and non-violent, yet they can't influence the little bastards to be fuckin' wimps???

Hm, I agree more and more with Max. What kind of world do we live in?

Bells, you know shit about raising a child if you think that they become wimps on their own. It is 90% surroundings....

 

[S.A.M.]

We should all stop being wimps

And go back to talking with our weapons

Oh wait, we're doing that already.

 

[Baron Max]

We should all stop being wimps

Yes, we should. I'm surprised that you agree, Sam. It would have been my guess that you'd have wanted all infidels and westerners to be wimps, while all Muslims be pushy and aggressive bastards!

"Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world"

Hmm, fits right in with my opinion of you, Sam.

Baron Max