Wimpish Society

Baron Max said:
Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder how many other people of the world do exactly the same things, and make exactly the same excuses for it?

My guess is many .....which is why we're becoming a nation/world of fuckin' wimps!!

Baron Max
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I certainly don't believe that canard about others being unable to make a person into a wimp. I guess someone hasn't heard about conditioned responses and learned helplessness.

This thread brought to mind the fact that the people who are "protective" are often the most abusive. They don't understand what is wrong with "protecting" a child to the point of killing him or denying him any kind of functional life.

They mistake being out of control, out of their minds with fear, for being decisive and rational.
 
Baron Max said:
Hmm ...a mother/parents can influence their children to do well in school, to be friendly and non-violent, yet they can't influence the little bastards to be fuckin' wimps???

How can they do well in one area of child-influence, yet be unable to do it in other areas of influence? You ain't makin' a lot of sense, Bells. Care to try again?

Baron Max
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I'd like to ask, what exactly constitutes a wimp?

If a person in the face of aggression, chooses to be non-violent, is he a wimp?

When a small child falls over and cries after they have skinned their knee, are they a wimp? And are the parents making them into bigger wimps if they pick their child up to comfort them?

You see Baron, you are throwing the term "wimp" around like like it is the new fashionable word. But what exactly is a wimp? Someone who doesn't back down? So if I teach my child that it is not right to hit other people, am I influencing him to be a wimp? Am I turning him into a wimp because I make him wear sunscreen if he goes swimming in the pool for example? Am I turning him into a wimp if I stop him from doing things that will result in a bad injury to himself?

Is a guy who is dared to jump off a cliff a wimp if he refuses the dare? Or is he simply stupid if he accepts it and actually jumps? Is a person a wimp if they walk away from a fight? How about if a person is confronted by 5 others who wish to bash him? Is he a wimp if he tries to run and save himself? Or is he simply silly if he tries to take them all on?

Is a guy a wimp if he has sex with a stranger and uses a condom? Or is he simply a moron if he does not use one? Is a person a wimp if they refuse a drink because they need to drive home? Or are they an idiot if they do? Is a young guy a wimp if he refuses to drag race someone at a set of lights who's challenged them? Or are they idiotic if they do accept the challenge?

How about a guy who is on holidays and hires a moped to go for a ride at a beach? Is he a wimp if he refuses to wear a helmet because they are mopeds and don't really go very fast at all? Or is he stupid for refusing to wear the helmet regardless of how fast the thing goes?

A 52-year-old American businessman has been killed after the moped he was on crashed head-on with a car at Noosa on Queensland's Sunshine Coast.

------------------------------------------

Mr Garcia had been intending to take a ride on The Spit at Noosa with a friend, but had refused to wear a helmet, Network Ten reported.
Link
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From reading this thread, a lot of you are looking at it from the 'macho' side of things. The whole 'be a man' argument keeps propping up. And yet not one of you has defined what actually makes someone a wimp. Interesting.
 
MetaKron said:
I certainly don't believe that canard about others being unable to make a person into a wimp. I guess someone hasn't heard about conditioned responses and learned helplessness.

This thread brought to mind the fact that the people who are "protective" are often the most abusive. They don't understand what is wrong with "protecting" a child to the point of killing him or denying him any kind of functional life.

They mistake being out of control, out of their minds with fear, for being decisive and rational.
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Interesting.

So you equate a parent protecting their child from harm and danger as being 'abusive' and as being akin to 'killing' them and denying them a 'functional' life?

One would normally look at it as being somewhat abusive if they allowed their child to come to harm. For example, is a parent who does not let their 5 year old walk home alone from school being over-protective and therefore in your mind 'abusive' and possibly 'killing' them?

Where do YOU draw the line Meta?
 
Bells said:
Interesting.

So you equate a parent protecting their child from harm and danger as being 'abusive' and as being akin to 'killing' them and denying them a 'functional' life?
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The "protection" is a common excuse for killing a child slowly and abusing him.
 
MetaKron said:
The "protection" is a common excuse for killing a child slowly and abusing him.
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How so?

Do you think a parent is abusive if they don't stop their child from running in front of a car for example?

Where do you draw the line in the 'protection' factor Meta? When does it begin to become an excuse? Or don't you think that parents should protect their children at all?
 
MetaKron said:
When it goes too far, that's when it becomes an excuse.
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Ah, but how far is too far?

For example, I would equate a parent who never leaves their child's side and is always hovering over them, making them wear a helmet and knee and elbow pads for protection in case they fall over as having gone too far (unless the child has an illness or disability that makes them more prone to bad injuries). You have protection and you have stifling. Two very different parenting types. Ensuring a child is safe within their own environment so they can run free and wild in said environment is not being over-protective. For example, we have a gated back yard, as well as a gated front yard so the little bugger can't get out onto the road. We have a fence around the pool so that he can't fall in and drown. And we made sure none of the plants in the back yard are dangerous to children (eg Oleander) if consumed because children will put stuff into their mouths. So he literally runs wild and is free to do so..

I know some people who never ever leave their child's side. Ever. Their little girl even sleeps between them. When she plays in the backyard, she has either her mother or her father sitting by her at all times. If she walks away, they follow her. She is in short, not free to be a child. Ensuring safety is one thing and is in fact expected. It is a parent's role to ensure that their child remains safe and protected from things and people that can harm them. But kids will be kids and they will fall over and scrape themselves or cut their lip or get bumps on their heads. If my husband and I had to stop our son from suffering from any of the above, we'd go insane. So sometimes he falls over and cuts his lip or gets a bump on the head and a scraped knee. But he gets up and carries on after he's been cleaned up.
 
Bells said:
So sometimes he falls over and cuts his lip or gets a bump on the head and a scraped knee.
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Damned child abusers!! I'm callin' the authorities right fuckin' now! (Oh, where the fuck do you live, anyway, so I can call the proper authorities?).

Bells said:
Ah, but how far is too far?
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Actually I think most mothers know that instinctively. If they didn't, there'd likely be no humans on Earth, don'tcha' think?

And really, I think one of the problems is OTHER people stickin' their noses into somewhere it doesn't belong ....then the government makin' a bunch of laws and rules, which do little but cause anxiety and problems in child rearing.

How, oh, how, have humans actually made it this far without all those fuckin' laws and rules of which we're now saddled? And of course, how did we survive 'til now without the constant noseiness of other people? Amazing, ain't it?

Baron Max
 
A wimp is a person of courage who shrinks from confrontation because of fear of societal repraisal.
 
A Nation of Wimps
"Parents are going to ludicrous lengths to take the bumps out of life for their children. However, parental hyperconcern has the net effect of making kids more fragile; that may be why they're breaking down in record numbers."

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-3584.html

Also:

http://www.nationofwimps.com/phenomenon.php

"The best evidence suggests that parental invasiveness and overinvolvement is crippling children psychologically. Nor is it good for parents. And it's definitely not good for the future of the country, which requires adaptability to unpredictability. In making life easier for their kids in the short term, adults are making it harder for them in the long term. In addition, they are depriving their children of meaning and a shot at deep satisfaction."

Are we rising a nation of wimps?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/opinion/garver/main524246.shtml
 
Having a fearful mother creates conditioning and chains of events that lead directly to breakdowns or "meltdowns." Mental toughness is acquired from actually experiencing life instead of being insulated from it.
 
Baron Max said:
Damned child abusers!! I'm callin' the authorities right fuckin' now! (Oh, where the fuck do you live, anyway, so I can call the proper authorities?).
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Heh.

Australia. So go nuts.

Actually I think most mothers know that instinctively. If they didn't, there'd likely be no humans on Earth, don'tcha' think?
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I have to agree with the "most" part. Some simply don't care at all and some care to such an extent that the child basically becomes wrapped up in cotton wool.

And really, I think one of the problems is OTHER people stickin' their noses into somewhere it doesn't belong ....then the government makin' a bunch of laws and rules, which do little but cause anxiety and problems in child rearing.
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Some laws are necessary, especially when we look at issues such as child abuse and neglect. But some laws that are being proposed (in Australia for example) go too far (eg anti-spanking laws).

How, oh, how, have humans actually made it this far without all those fuckin' laws and rules of which we're now saddled? And of course, how did we survive 'til now without the constant noseiness of other people? Amazing, ain't it?
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Indeed.

I have noticed an amazing trend however. My parents were very free and open with me when I was a child. I was brought up with a 'she'll learn on her own' attitude, which I think served me well. I mean I played in dirt, climbed trees, fell out of trees, fell of swings, etc, and I was treated with a bandaid and sent off on my merry way. I was stopped from climbing onto the roof for example, and when I was a toddler, I was also stopped from climbing on the dining room table and trying to leap off (something we are now facing with our son). But I was allowed to be a child. The trend I have noticed is that my parents have now become very over-protective grandparents. It drives our 16 month old up the all. He can't move without them hovering over him. When I tell them to back off and let him be the child that he is, they tell me that I need to be careful. If he falls and cuts his lip, I clean him up, check his teeth haven't broken and he's off again. They react as though the end of the world has occured and tell me I need to be more careful and watch him so he does not fall over and hurt himself. Short of walking behind him with a ready to inflate mattress, there is nothing I or his father can do to stop him falling over and cutting his lip or scraping his knee.

My husband recently built our son a timber cubby house in the back yard. My parents feel that it is unsafe because it is made of timber and there is the risk of splinters, all the corners are not rounded enough and he could fall down the 4 small steps (they feel there should be a ramp instead). They also feel that we should put bars on the cubby house window to stop him climbing out, which he has taken to doing and then falling face first in the sandpit below and thinking it to be the funniest thing in the world. Apparently we should have put the thick rubber matting underneath.:rolleyes:

I have to agree however, there is a prevalence in keeping children from being children. I cannot stand the parks with the rubber rebound playgrounds because they tend to cause more scrapes when the kids do fall over. We tend to look for the ones with the bark underneath. Junior loves it as he can sit in the bark and dig through to the dirt underneath.

There is taking precautions and there is being so over cautious that a child is treated like precious china. Parents have to ensure that their children will be safe. Hence why you don't allow them to play with knives and scissors, you fence the pool, you remove things that will cause them harm (eg cactus in the garden and not leaving power tools around, etc). But we need to let kids be kids as well.

Meta makes an interesting point.

Having a fearful mother creates conditioning and chains of events that lead directly to breakdowns or "meltdowns."
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I have to agree. I will be honest and say that I am fearful that he can contract skin cancer because it runs in the family. He has a higher chance of developing the disease. I would be silly if I ignored that. So I try to lessen the risk by making him wear a hat when he plays outside and sunscreen. Schools and child care centres also adopt the same rules as well because skin cancer is so prevalent in the state I live. It's just a habit we want him to have as he grows up and where we live, it is essential that children learn about sun safety as well as water safety. It is a rule we have set down. No hat and no sunscreen? No outside. My parents were the same with me and cleaning my room.;)

Children need rules and boundaries. There are some things we are firm on and that is one of them.
 
All in all you sound like a very good parent Bells, big clap to you, you seem to understand the don't raise your kid a wimp, but do use common-sense to protect them from natural "hurtful" things that can happen . Nobody , i think, wants to see kids hurt or abused.

But letting learn on their own is a very key ingredient to becoming a mature adult that can handle things on their own when they hit the real world.
 
I agree with your grandparents and I agree with your sentiments, but I think you're wrong. The kid is 16 months. When the kid is walking around as a semi-independent, continent human being with friends I can understand giving him/her autonomy... but not at that age. Maybe I don't know anything about babies and that's why I see it that way. But it seems a bit young to let her roam around on her own.
 
Bells said:
Some laws are necessary, especially when we look at issues such as child abuse and neglect.
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And there is where I differ from every other human on Earth! I don't think more fuckin' writing on a piece of government paper is going to do any good at all ...and in fact, those silly-assed laws usually cause more problems, rather than solving anything.

People, including parents, who harm children should simply be shot ....right there on the spot, no questions asked. Just pull out a big gun and blow them clear to hell ...or in Aussieland, of course, pull out a big Crocodile Dundee knife and slit their throats.

If we did that just a few times, and let the newspapers and the media get that message out to the public, pretty soon no one would harm any child anywhere on the planet!

See? The reason we don't do that kind of things is ......because we've all become fuckin' wimps!!!

Baron Max
 
You guys focus too much on the early physical child abuse or lack of it.

It is really not that what makes today's generation wimps. It is the lack of duty, tasks, expectations, rules, chores,punishment, etc. and the overabundance of freedom, gifts, technology, gadgets, spoiling,etc. They get too much too soon most of the time for nothing in return, and they always want more...

And since they got it too easy, they have the false expectation that it is going to be like that in REAL life, and they break down when find out the truth in the hard way.
 
Syzygys said:
You guys focus too much on the early physical child abuse or lack of it.

It is really not that what makes today's generation wimps. It is the lack of duty, tasks, expectations, rules, chores, etc. and the overabundance of freedom, gifts, technology, gadgets, etc.
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Yes, and these problems start in childhood, when your parents have to teach you the proper ways , and if they don't , you end up a wimp, like most today.
 
francois said:
I agree with your grandparents and I agree with your sentiments, but I think you're wrong. The kid is 16 months. When the kid is walking around as a semi-independent, continent human being with friends I can understand giving him/her autonomy... but not at that age. Maybe I don't know anything about babies and that's why I see it that way. But it seems a bit young to let her roam around on her own.
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Hardly "roaming around". This is in our own backyard that has been virtually stripped of anything that might pose a danger to him. He is supervised when he's outside in the yard and inside the house. We just don't supervise by being his shadow and leaning over him at all times to make sure he does not fall over, bump into anything, etc. There is a difference. My parents think shadowing to protect him from every bump and scrape is essential.. we don't. They don't even approve of the way we play with him.. he likes playing tag.. because they think he could fall over and hurt himself as he's running.. Like many grandparents, they are way over-protective. My husband's parents were the same with their first grandchild.

Baron Max said:
If we did that just a few times, and let the newspapers and the media get that message out to the public, pretty soon no one would harm any child anywhere on the planet!
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Some parents do not realise they are harming their children. Some of them think the 'beating' they are giving their kids is deserved and essential to the child's upbringing and if a death occurs or major injury, they consider it to be either an accident or will find every excuse to absolve themselves of guilt:

http://www.courttv.com/trials/smith/020707_ctv.html

http://www.courttv.com/trials/smith/021607_verdict_ctv.html

I personally feel that child abuse laws don't go far enough.

Syzygys said:
It is really not that what makes today's generation wimps. It is the lack of duty, tasks, expectations, rules, chores,punishment, etc. and the overabundance of freedom, gifts, technology, gadgets, spoiling,etc. They get too much too soon most of the time for nothing in return, and they always want more...

And since they got it too easy, they have the false expectation that it is going to be like that in REAL life, and they break down when find out the truth in the hard way.
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I think there has to be a balance. As a parent, the temptation to make everything easy for a child is very strong. You don't want your kids to have to struggle through life. You want them to have it better than you did. However most parents know how to set boundaries and rules and allow their children the freedom to sort things out for themselves and are there to help guide them if the child needs it.

Some parents do not care and others care so much that the discipline they give their child basically amounts to child abuse. Now if you don't care or you care too much and end up abusing the child, it will damage the child in the long run and that too will give them a false expectation of what real life is like.

It is a fine balance and one that most parents are quite conscious of. How much is too much? Parents have to figure that out for themselves because every child is different and every child has different needs. Our son is quite independent and has been basically right from the start. We don't know what our second child will be like. Parents have to get to know their child and then take it from there. There is no set rule of upbringing that will apply to every child. Parents need to be flexible to suit their child's needs and personality. I mean kids have personalities and it is quite distinct right from the start. Yes there are parents who spoil their kids rotten and that does set up a child to expect everything to be easy in life. It is hard not to spoil one's child. It's not the child's fault if they are spoilt. Parents need to find that balance between spoiling and bringing them up to realise that life is not easy and not everything will be given to them.
 
Syzygys said:
You guys focus too much on the early physical child abuse or lack of it.

It is really not that what makes today's generation wimps. It is the lack of duty, tasks, expectations, rules, chores,punishment, etc. and the overabundance of freedom, gifts, technology, gadgets, spoiling,etc. They get too much too soon most of the time for nothing in return, and they always want more...

And since they got it too easy, they have the false expectation that it is going to be like that in REAL life, and they break down when find out the truth in the hard way.
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I don't think you're quite getting it, either. In fact, I had the duty, tasks, expectations, rules, chores, and punishments, and if I wanted any gadgets I generally had to scrounge for them or actually make them. The problem was that I did not have a steadying hand or teachers who were anything close to sane, I didn't have emotional support when I legitimately needed it, and I was treated to sadism over small mistakes.
 
Well, the sadism part sure didn't make you a wimp.

Anyway, I bet we all agree more than not, but we talk more theoretically instead of cases. So here is one:

Kid is about 10, lost his coat. It must be somehwere in the neighbourhood in one of his friends house, my guess. For starter I can understand losing a hat or glove, but a coat? Anyway, there was no effort made to find the coat, but his mother bought a new one immediatelly.
But the kid had an older coat that happened to be pink!! So my punishment would have been make the kid wear the pink coat (which is sure not that cool at age 10) until we are damn sure that the coat is lost for good.

Of course one of the other kids' parent called a few days later that they have an extra coat, and wasn't that ours?

So what did the kid learn out of it?:

1. No responsibility needs for life.
2. Whatever he loses or breaks will be instantly replaced with a new.
3. No efford needs to try to fix caused problems.

That is when I am talking about raising wimps. Are we clear??

Once when they are 20ish and they have to live on their own salaries they will be surprised just how much things cost or how much one has to work to buy this or that. That's going to be their big awakenings...
 
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