Will the real Jesus please stand up?

[Dywyddyr]

M*W: What is constructed about haiku?

What isn't?
It's much as any written piece: it MUST be constructed, so that it makes sense.

con·struct (kn-strkt)
tr.v. con·struct·ed, con·struct·ing, con·structs
1. To form by assembling or combining parts; build.
2. To create (an argument or a sentence, for example) by systematically arranging ideas or terms.
3. Mathematics To draw (a geometric figure) that meets specific requirements.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/construct

 

[davewhite04]

*************
M*W: It was aimed at dave, who never provided any peer-reviewed refutation.

Your either thick or a liar or both.

One more time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

And that is me out of here.

Farewell.

 

[John99]

m*w: This cannot be compared to george washington.

:facepalm:
:runaway:

 

[roger_pearse]

*************
M*W: This has been discussed plenty of times on this forum. It has undoubtedly been found to be a forgery.

It's generally a mistake to go by hearsay on matters of controversy. The long passage about Jesus in Josephus was universally considered an interpolation (not the same as a forgery) a century ago. But times change, and the general view today among scholars is that it is genuine but corrupt, although some still believe it is interpolated. How corrupt is a matter of opinion. The short passage was always considered genuine, even a century ago, except by the occasional scholar.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

References:

1. H. St. J. Thackeray, Josephus: The Man and the Historian (New York: Jewish Institute of Religion/Ktav, 1929).

2. Louis H. Feldman, Josephus and Modern Scholarship, (New York: de Gruyter, 1984)

(etc)
[/quote]

I notice this is a list of books about the subject in general, with no specific references. Treat this as highly likely to be special pleading, unless you have verified each. The lack of page numbers is the revealing bit. The author seeks to give the impression that all these denounce the passage as forged. I rather doubt that any do.

Marshal Gauvin [1818 - 1978] writes:

Quite a long life, that!

But Gauvin has no claim to be heard. He wasn't a Josephus scholar.

Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus, which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is known to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient."[/I]

Were Eusebius and Gauvin alive, Gauvin would have had to pay Eusebius punitive damages for the libel.

Gauvin also betrays his lack of education by arguing that a passage only referenced by Eusebius must be a fake. But Eusebius' works are patchworks of quotations, which stand up very well where we can verify them, and give us riches of lost philosophers in other cases. 99% of ancient literature is lost. Only two writers now extant show any knowledge of Josephus Antiquities books 11-20. Arguing from a silence is always risky, and in this case insane.

The article below offers a lot of peer-reviewed scientific publications. This was much too long to copy and paste.

THE CHRIST-MYTH. Translated from the Third Edition
(revised and enlarged) by C. Delisle Burns, M.A. T. Fisher
Unwin, London ; 1911.

[/quote]

I don't know why this is an article; it looks like a very old book, probably full of hearsay.

Be sceptical. Whether Christianity is true or not, the Christ-myth stuff is a punishment wreaked on those too ill-educated to see the absurdity and too foolish to acquire an education.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[roger_pearse]

*************
M*W: To make people get off their brainwashed asses and think for themselves, something of which you are not capable.

An unfortunate comment from someone repeating, unchecked, hearsay off the web.

Only a conformist would demand people think for themselves in the exact words dictated to them by others.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

A nice peer reviewed site I see.

* * * * NOTE FROM ONE OF THE MODERATORS * * * *

Sorry, we don't have anywhere near the bandwidth to run this place like a true academy. The Moderators are all unpaid volunteers and we have our hands full breaking up flame wars, keeping the trolls in line, and tossing out the shoe bomber spam. If someone challenges an assertion then the peer review process kicks in. Evidence must be provided to support it, or else the line of argument must be dropped and never repeated in that thread or any other. But even that cornerstone of the scientific method is difficult to enforce.

There were any number of Jesuses during the day.

Jesus is just the Latinization of the Hebrew name Yehoshuah, usually rendered in English as Joshua.

What is constructed about haiku?

Haiku is a bloody word game. Five syllables, seven syllables, five syllables.

Yesterday it worked.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.

A crash reduces
your expensive computer
to a simple stone.

Having been erased,
the document you're seeking
must now be retyped.

-- The Linguistics Moderator

 

[davewhite04]

* * * * NOTE FROM ONE OF THE MODERATORS * * * *

Sorry, we don't have anywhere near the bandwidth to run this place like a true academy. The Moderators are all unpaid volunteers and we have our hands full breaking up flame wars, keeping the trolls in line, and tossing out the shoe bomber spam. If someone challenges an assertion then the peer review process kicks in. Evidence must be provided to support it, or else the line of argument must be dropped and never repeated in that thread or any other. But even that cornerstone of the scientific method is difficult to enforce.

Why is this directed to me?

Thanks

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Fraggle Rocker
Haiku is a bloody word game.

Whoa, hold your tougue man. Them are fighting words :fight: . Haiku is no more a word game than a limerick is. It is classified as one of the 51 types of poetry ( http://www.poemofquotes.com/articles/poetry_forms.php ). Granted, it may not be Allen Ginsberg's or John Ashbery's chosen style but it is still poetry. Traditionally it is written in the present tense and has at least one reference to a specified time of year known as a "season word" (ripening, die, bloom, harvest, ...) but these requirements are often overlooked in the West. What you presented as examples of haiku lack in all of these and amount to nothing more than krap (no offence intended). I find your post to be ripe with irony. First you state that:

The Moderators are all unpaid volunteers and we have our hands full breaking up flame wars, keeping the trolls in line, and tossing out the shoe bomber spam.

Then you go on to say that haiku is nothing but a word game. How is this no suppose to be taken as "tolling" or "flaming"? I can understand if you have no respect for this form of poetry but that does not give you the right to redefine what poetry is! You should know this seeing as you are also the Arts and Culture moderator :scratchin: .
.
P.S. My current emotional state should be taken more as sarcasm than anger. :thumbsup: I just felt the need to say something.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Why is this directed to me?

You (sarcastically) lamented the fact that this website does not undergo adequate peer review. I agree with you, and explained why that is. The Moderators don't have the resources for it.

But that doesn't stop you, the general members, from performing peer reviews. If someone posts a controversial assertion, challenge him to provide supporting evidence.

But the problem with encouraging this is that performing a peer review properly requires a certain minimum level of scientific training, knowledge and attitude. The majority of our members are kids who don't have the qualifications, and the same is true of many (or even most) of the grownups.

 

[brennus]

The perfect human
never existed before
poetry made one.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Whoa, hold your tougue man. Them are fighting words :fight: . Haiku is no more a word game than a limerick is. It is classified as one of the 51 types of poetry.

Correct. They ALL are "word games".

Any form of writing (other than maybe a government/ scientific report [and you could also make a case for those]) is a word game in that each and every word is chosen for its effect, nuances and connotations.
Poetry particularly is a "game" (with rules, and Haiku's rules are basic but strict).
Don't you think that whatever is said in a poem could be stated more concisely, (maybe more clearly) and with considerably less effort if it were delivered as dry, factual prose?
But where's the fun in that?

A poem is designed to make you think in a particular way about something - it plays with words, with preconceptions and with language itself. (And, incidentally, shows the writer to be fairly smart - "Hey I wish I could have said it like that!").
Is that not a game?

How many of these definitions can be applied to the construction of Haiku?

Main Entry: 1game
Pronunciation: \ˈgām\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gamen; akin to Old High German gaman amusement
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : play (2) : the equipment for a game b : often derisive or mocking jesting : fun, sport <make game of a nervous player>
2 a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : tactic b : an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : racket
3 a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other (2) : a division of a larger contest (3) : the number of points necessary to win (4) : points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest (5) : the manner of playing in a contest (6) : the set of rules governing a game (7) : a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game> b plural : organized athletics c (1) : a field of gainful activity : line <the newspaper game> (2) : any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics>; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game> (3) : area of expertise : specialty 3 <comedy is not my game>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/game

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Don't you think that whatever is said in a poem could be stated more concisely, (maybe more clearly) and with considerably less effort if it were delivered as dry, factual prose?

More clearly, certainly. But poetry is often more concise.

That's just part of the game. Find the fewest words possible to express your idea. And than watch from your grave as generations of hapless university students sit through interminable lectures explaining what it (probably) means.

I find poetry inscrutable--except for the Great Masters such as Ogden Nash and Dr. Seuss.

 

[Dywyddyr]

More clearly, certainly. But poetry is often more concise.

Agreed, I probably meant precise and with fewer nuances and possible meanings.

I find poetry inscrutable

Inscrutable?

Read a master:

if you like my poems let them
walk in the evening,a little behind you

then people will say
"Along this road i saw a princess pass
on her way to meet her lover(it was
toward nightfall)with tall and ignorant servants."

e e cuumings.

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
Correct. They ALL are "word games". Any form of writing (...) is a word game in that each and every word is chosen for its effect, nuances and connotations.

Poetry particularly is a "game" (with rules, and Haiku's rules are basic but strict).

Nicely articulated Dy. Man, "I wish I could have said it like that!"

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Okay, can we get back on the on the original thread? Let's discuss sun god worship in ancient religions/myths:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0030SunGods.php

 

[NMSquirrel]

*************
M*W: Okay, can we get back on the on the original thread? Let's discuss sun god worship in ancient religions/myths:

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0030SunGods.php

perhaps a readers digest version from you would help..as i dont wanna spend my time reading all that..

 

[Medicine*Woman]

perhaps a readers digest version from you would help..as i dont wanna spend my time reading all that..

*************
M*W: If I had a version I would post it. I don't want to get into anything too long and complicated, but to add just enough to browse and think about.

 

[NMSquirrel]

*************
M*W: If I had a version I would post it. I don't want to get into anything too long and complicated, but to add just enough to browse and think about.

:bugeye:

have you read it?
or are you just posting whatever the search engine found?
if you can't simplify it to gain interest,i don't want to click unless i have a reason to...

so how long have you been in this Anti-Christ mood?