Will the real Jesus please stand up?

Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
The dates the NT books were written is common knowledge among historians. This cannot be compared to George Washington.
You're right. George Washington is probably a bad comparison but something tells me that three-hundred years from now people will not doubt the existence of Billy Graham or Joseph Smith. I'm sure that some of their followers will still be interpreting their words and these new insights will be printed into new books. The thing is, we use printing presses today so this opens the door for people who live two-thousand years from now to question the true existence and teachings of those men. You and I know that they both walked to Earth but how long do you think our impressions of them will still hold true? Washington, on the other hand, is too great a man to be lost to history ... or is he? We can already see the religious right trying to recast our founding principals to fit their agenda. The point I am trying to make here is that it doesn't take much to rewrite history and just because the gospels were written 70 - 400 years after Jesus's death doesn't mean that he didn't exist.
I'm sorry about your Cherokee ancestors.
Thank you. I only brought this up because it's a modern day example of the assimilation of a "lesser people" who were conquered by a much more powerful entity. This parallels the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans and the historical whitewashing of dissidence. Just because certain groups of people were left out of the offical records does not mean that they didn't exist.
 
Please provide evidence for that assertion. I vividly remember the reports of the discovery of that forgery, and I have seen absolutely nothing since then to refute it, much less a consensus of "most scholars." Not even the Jesuits, who would be honor-bound to tell us if they found Jesus's body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Nothing has been concluded as a forgery either.
 
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M*W: This has been discussed plenty of times on this forum. It has undoubtedly been found to be a forgery.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

References:

1. H. St. J. Thackeray, Josephus: The Man and the Historian (New York: Jewish Institute of Religion/Ktav, 1929).

2. Louis H. Feldman, Josephus and Modern Scholarship, (New York: de Gruyter, 1984)

3. John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1991), pp. 56-88.

4. Robert Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist According to Flavius Josephus' Recently Discovered "Capture of Jerusalem" and the Other Jewish and Christian Sources, trans. Alexander Haggerty Krappe (Methuen, 1931)

5. Paul Winter, "Josephus on Jesus and James" in E. Schurer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ, rev. and ed. by G. Vermes and F. Millar (Edinburgh: Clark, 1973), pp. 428-441

6. J. Neville Birdsall, "The Continuing Enigma of Josephus' Testimony about Jesus," BJRL 67 (1984)

7. Ch. Martin, "Le Testimonium Flavianum. Vers une solution definitive?" Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire 20 (1941), pp. 409-46

8. Shlomo Pines
, An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and its Implications, (Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1971)

9. L. H. Feldman, "Josephus", in The Anchor Bible Dictionary (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1991)

10. Josephus, the Bible, and History (Detroit: Wayne State University, 1988), Louis H. Feldman and Gohei Hata, eds. See pp. 430-435, "A Selective Critical Bibliography of Josephus."

11. Karl H. Rengstorf, A Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus (4 vols.; Leiden: Brill, 1973-1983)

12. Steve Mason, Josephus and the New Testament (Hendrickson, 1992)

13. James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism (Doubleday, 1988)

14. Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (New York: Macmillan, 1974)

15. Joseph A. Fitzmyer, The Gospel of Luke, X-XXIV, The Anchor Bible, Vol. 28a (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1985)

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm

Marshal Gauvin [1818 - 1978] writes:

"Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus, which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is known to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient."

The article below offers a lot of peer-reviewed scientific publications. This was much too long to copy and paste.

THE CHRIST-MYTH. Translated from the Third Edition
(revised and enlarged) by C. Delisle Burns, M.A. T. Fisher
Unwin, London ; 1911.

A nice peer reviewed site I see :rolleyes:
 
Acitnoids:

Thanks for your input, you have written what I think on the subject in a easy to understand fashion.

Regardless of your beliefs, thanks.
 
This doesn't make sense.

Are you agreeing that the NT books are authentic?
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M*W: I'm agreeing that there were certain books written and included in the NT. I'm agreeing that is authentic, but I'm not agreeing that they are truthful or factual.
 
Acitnoids:

Thanks for your input, you have written what I think on the subject in a easy to understand fashion.

Regardless of your beliefs, thanks.
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M*W: Your input doesn't include peer-reviewed publications on the authenticity of what you are proposing.
 
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M*W: There were any number of Jesuses during the day.

Why do you start threads when you have no intention whatsoever in learning anything?

If you really want to find the Jesus you think didn't exist use your brain, otherwise get over it and live as though he didn't. Don't lose sleep over it, I'm sure he doesn't.
 
Why do you start threads when you have no intention whatsoever in learning anything?

If you really want to find the Jesus you think didn't exist use your brain, otherwise get over it and live as though he didn't. Don't lose sleep over it, I'm sure he doesn't.
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M*W: What makes you think I know nothing about Jesus or christianity? For god's sake, I taught christianity to junior and senior high school students as well as to adults for many years. So, please don't think I haven't learned anything. Let's say that now I have just learned more.

Also, what makes you think that I don't live a decent life? I probably live a more decent life than Jesus did himself. I really don't lose any sleep over it, I just want to make other people think about what I've learned. It's up to them if they follow it or not.

Now if you want to discuss the character of Jesus, we can do that. It won't be a very interesting read on this forum, so it would die out just like christianity is though.

The topics I have mentioned to have have already been covered extensively on Sciforums during the past nine years I've been here. Everything we are discussing today is old news.
 
I didn't say you know nothing about Jesus or Christianity, I was referring to the actual existence of Jesus as a historical figure. You believe he didn't exist, and seem pretty sure, so regardless of what people tell you your mind will not change.

Why do you create these threads?
 
I didn't say you know nothing about Jesus or Christianity, I was referring to the actual existence of Jesus as a historical figure. You believe he didn't exist, and seem pretty sure, so regardless of what people tell you your mind will not change.

Why do you create these threads?
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M*W: To make people get off their brainwashed asses and think for themselves, something of which you are not capable.
 
Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
Post #68
Originally Posted by davewhite04
Acitnoids:
Thanks for your input, you have written what I think on the subject in a easy to understand fashion. Regardless of your beliefs, thanks.
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M*W: Your input doesn't include peer-reviewed publications on the authenticity of what you are proposing.
I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out if this was directed towards me or dave. It it was aimed at me then please, tell me what you find unauthentic about my input and I'll see what I can do about finding some "peer-reviewed" publications for you.
Originally Posted by brennus
The perfect human
never existed before
poetry made one.
There is nothing like
a well constructed haiku
on a spring morning.
.
I find them to be
simplistic yet beautiful
like snow in winter.
 
I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out if this was directed towards me or dave. It it was aimed at me then please, tell me what you find unauthentic about my input and I'll see what I can do about finding some "peer-reviewed" publications for you.
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M*W: It was aimed at dave, who never provided any peer-reviewed refutation.

There is nothing like
a well constructed haiku
on a spring morning.
.
I find them to be
simplistic yet beautiful
like snow in winter.

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M*W: What is constructed about haiku?
 
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