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M*W: And Obama can't produce his either...
Will the real Jesus please stand up?
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
M*W: And Obama can't produce his either...
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M*W: I understand they are hidden underneath the Vatican. I wish I had known that when I was there.
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M*W: I think "Sophia" means "wisdom." Was she a real Greek goddess or a metaphor for "wisdom?"
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: I don't think I was getting defensive. How so?
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M*W: Al Gore thinks he invented the Internet. The Age of Aquarius was invented when the first nomads connected the stars and saw a woman/man holding a water jug. The constellation of Aquarius has been several mythical characters: John the Baptist, Mary Magdalene, et al.
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M*W: I would settle for Jesus's death certificate. After all, he was born in a manger, but his death was supposed to be witnessed by several well-known characters in mythology: Mary Magdalene, Virgin Mary, Joseph of Arimathea, Pontius Pilate, Barabbas, et al..
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M*W: WTF, and you do?????
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Have we got any death certificates for these Nomads?
They didn't have time to issue one it seems. Joking aside, why do you expect or ask for ridiculous evidence? As far as I know they didn't even issue death certificates then.
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M*W: The Romans historically were sticklers for documenting their events. However, there was no documentation of any christian events.
I have always questioned why Mark, the first gospel written around 70 AD, was after Jerusalem fell to the Romans. People scattered for fear of death by the Romans. Jerusalem was flattened. Where were the writers of the gospels then? It doesn't make sense they were in Jerusalem. I believe the gospels were written in Rome, except for John, which may have been written elsewhere, and that's questionable. Why after Jerusalem fell?
Flavius Josephus is a reliable reference about this, but even as a prominent historian of his day, he mentioned nothing about Jesus or christianity. The one small paragraph that was mentioned was later found to be a forgery. It seems that he was among the Jews of Jesus's day, and he said nothing.
That is why i dont. I asked you to at least back up something very simple and you chose to only respond to the irrelevant fluff.
That is the second SPECIFIC thing i asked you about which may at least give you something that resembles credibility but now.....
And after all these are your claims, you should at least make an attempt. Now between not reading your own links and not answering your own claims can only mean one thing.
Oh, you did actually respond.
If they are hidden (ALLEGEDLY (by you), with no proof) then why would you make the claim knowing it was made up?
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davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
This is a little lie that you have allowed into your mind for sheer convenience. Most scholars agree that the passage you declare a forgery is in fact most certainly not.
Gullible is cute, up to a point.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Please provide evidence for that assertion. I vividly remember the reports of the discovery of that forgery, and I have seen absolutely nothing since then to refute it, much less a consensus of "most scholars." Not even the Jesuits, who would be honor-bound to tell us if they found Jesus's body.
If you follow this logic then we would have to challenge any biography published toady about George Washington. After all, it's been two-hundred years cense his death.
This too is faulty logic. My father was a Cherokee Indian (I never met the man) and because of this, my older brother and I should have been able to obtain a collage scholarship reserved for First Nation tribes. When my older brother went to apply for this scholarship he discovered that our ancestors decided to stay back and fight the white man i stead of being forced off their land. Today this is known as the Trail of Tears. Everyone who participated in this exodus had to sign some document before they could enter their newly founded reservation. It is from these documents that scholarships are granted. According to the U.S. government, my ancestors where never part of the Cherokee Nation and they have no official record of their existance. This happened in less than 200 years let alone 2000.
:cheers:
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M*W: John, get back to me when you're not drunk, and ask me SPECIFIC questions. The articles I posted from the web had references at the end of them.
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M*W: Someone else on Sciforums stated a while back that things were hidden (as in not available to the public). I had heard that several times and probably read it somewhere that I don't recall.
You, for one, are the worst for not writing anything credible (shall I name sources?). Also, you do realize that sometimes in the manner of writing things are included without being referenced material. You have to know what is prose and what is certifiable documentation. I know you have a problem in this area, so I won't come down so hard on you. Just stick to the easy stuff, John, and you will be okay.
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M*W: Then report me and ask the mods to put it there.
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M*W: This has been discussed plenty of times on this forum. It has undoubtedly been found to be a forgery.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)
"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."
References:
1. H. St. J. Thackeray, Josephus: The Man and the Historian (New York: Jewish Institute of Religion/Ktav, 1929).
2. Louis H. Feldman, Josephus and Modern Scholarship, (New York: de Gruyter, 1984)
3. John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1991), pp. 56-88.
4. Robert Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist According to Flavius Josephus' Recently Discovered "Capture of Jerusalem" and the Other Jewish and Christian Sources, trans. Alexander Haggerty Krappe (Methuen, 1931)
5. Paul Winter, "Josephus on Jesus and James" in E. Schurer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ, rev. and ed. by G. Vermes and F. Millar (Edinburgh: Clark, 1973), pp. 428-441
6. J. Neville Birdsall, "The Continuing Enigma of Josephus' Testimony about Jesus," BJRL 67 (1984)
7. Ch. Martin, "Le Testimonium Flavianum. Vers une solution definitive?" Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire 20 (1941), pp. 409-46
8. Shlomo Pines, An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and its Implications, (Jerusalem: Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities, 1971)
9. L. H. Feldman, "Josephus", in The Anchor Bible Dictionary (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1991)
10. Josephus, the Bible, and History (Detroit: Wayne State University, 1988), Louis H. Feldman and Gohei Hata, eds. See pp. 430-435, "A Selective Critical Bibliography of Josephus."
11. Karl H. Rengstorf, A Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus (4 vols.; Leiden: Brill, 1973-1983)
12. Steve Mason, Josephus and the New Testament (Hendrickson, 1992)
13. James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism (Doubleday, 1988)
14. Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew (New York: Macmillan, 1974)
15. Joseph A. Fitzmyer, The Gospel of Luke, X-XXIV, The Anchor Bible, Vol. 28a (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1985)
http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm
Marshal Gauvin [1818 - 1978] writes:
"Such is the celebrated reference to Christ in Josephus. A more brazen forgery was never perpetrated. For more than two hundred years, the Christian Fathers who were familiar with the works of Josephus knew nothing of this passage. Had the passage been in the works of Josephus, which they knew, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Origen an Clement of Alexandria would have been eager to hurl it at their Jewish opponents in their many controversies. But it did not exist. Indeed, Origen, who knew his Josephus well, expressly affirmed that that writer had not acknowledged Christ. This passage first appeared in the writings of the Christian Father Eusebius, the first historian of Christianity, early in the fourth century; and it is believed that he was its author. Eusebius, who not only advocated fraud in the interest of the faith, but who is known to have tampered with passages in the works of Josephus and several other writers, introduces this passage in his "Evangelical Demonstration," (Book III., p.124), in these words: "Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient."
The article below offers a lot of peer-reviewed scientific publications. This was much too long to copy and paste.
THE CHRIST-MYTH. Translated from the Third Edition
(revised and enlarged) by C. Delisle Burns, M.A. T. Fisher
Unwin, London ; 1911.
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M*W: No, that would be you.
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M*W: The dates the NT books were written is common knowledge among historians. This cannot be compared to George Washington.
I'm sorry about your Cherokee ancestors. My ancestors hid out in the hills and caves and avoided the Trail of Tears, but I'm sure some of them were rounded up. Because of their great fear of being found out, they integrated into White society and never told anyone. My great grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee, but she died before I was born. She integrated into a Southern family, and nothing else was ever said about it. I wish I knew.
I agree with what you are saying about the Cherokee. There are babies being born today by the undocumented aliens who don't get birth certificates. My ancestors were immigrants, so I'm passionate about the plight of the illegals.