Will Christians ever express remorse for "witch" burning?

[cole grey]

As much as i personally want these horrible things to be remembered, I can tell you right now - christianity existed long before any of that stuff went down. To say a person is guilty by association is ridiculous. What about eastern orthodox christians? I hate to even say that as a question because nobody but an idiot could blame eastern orthodox christians for actions taken by catholics or protestants.

If nazism existed as a philosophy and that specific name, "nazi" was used for a thousand years prior to hitler, i would have no problem with someone who said, "hitler was a terrible nazi, we are true nazis, and a true nazi would never do those horrible things." If that were able to be said in truth, then good for them to clear the name for germany. (I'm pretty sure this is not the case, but if you don't follow my point, you suck)

MW said, "It's one thing to be an American Citizen and rue the harsh treatment of the Native Americans. It's another thing to be a Christian and not acknowledge what Christianity did to innocent women and men. They are guilty by association."

Yes, but you have the gravity of the situations reversed.
To be an american and PROFIT from the harsh treatment of native americans, and to never recognize that, is much WORSE than being a christian who has received nothing but scorn and negativity for actions someone else did.

 

[hug-a-tree]

It was all my fault.
I'm sorry.

Are you serious?

 

[cole grey]

Are you serious?

Yes, the witch burnings were my fault, although I wasn't born.
Actually it is all of our faults in this thread. In this universe, where all activity is drawn from it's conclusion, the burnings occured so we could discuss them.

I was kidding actually. Now are you kidding me, about not knowing I was kidding?

I know I shouldn't joke about this subject, but I am not joking about witches and other people being killed, I am joking about the concept that it is my responsibility.

 

[Woody]

Yes, the witch burnings were my fault, although I wasn't born.
Actually it is all of our faults in this thread. In this universe, where all activity is drawn from it's conclusion, the burnings occured so we could discuss them.

I was kidding actually. Now are you kidding me, about not knowing I was kidding?

I know I shouldn't joke about this subject, but I am not joking about witches and other people being killed, I am joking about the concept that it is my responsibility.

While we're at it, maybe all Westerners should apologize to the Muslim world for those cartoons. It's our fault isn't it? They believe the cartoons are our fault. Does it make you feel guilty to be a Westerner? Neither do I feel guilty being a Christian.


Originally Posted by Muslim Woman with Woody's word substitutions:

I believe that anyone who claims to be a Westerner even today is responsible for the cartoons of Mohammed by association. It's one thing to be an American Citizen and rue the harsh treatment of the Muslims. It's another thing to be a Westerner and not acknowledge what Western humor did to innocent women and men of the Muslim faith. They are guilty by association. If someone chooses to be Westerner, then he must acknowledge the evils that Westerners did through the ages. If he can still honestly claim to be a Westerner, then he must assume the guilt of Westerners. When does this guilt end? Never.

Well boo-hoo, I can't sleep over the guilt of it all.

 

[hug-a-tree]

Yes, the witch burnings were my fault, although I wasn't born.
Actually it is all of our faults in this thread. In this universe, where all activity is drawn from it's conclusion, the burnings occured so we could discuss them.

I was kidding actually. Now are you kidding me, about not knowing I was kidding?

I know I shouldn't joke about this subject, but I am not joking about witches and other people being killed, I am joking about the concept that it is my responsibility.

Well you sounded pretty serious about it, that's all. I don't think it's anyones fault, at least that's alive today.

 

[cole grey]

Does it make you feel guilty to be a Westerner?

sometimes it does.

 

[purple_hairstreak]

Edit- P.S. I voted for I believe witches exist today - some of them believe in "evolution" - just because it was so funny.

Ditto

 

[Woody]

Cole said,

“ Originally Posted by Woody
Does it make you feel guilty to be a Westerner? ”

sometimes it does.

How so? What would you rather be instead?

 

[Light]

While we're at it, maybe all Westerners should apologize to the Muslim world for those cartoons. It's our fault isn't it? They believe the cartoons are our fault. Does it make you feel guilty to be a Westerner? Neither do I feel guilty being a Christian.


Originally Posted by Some Muslim Woman with Woody's word substitutions:



Well boo-hoo, I can't sleep over the guilt of it all.

Yeah, me too!

Seriously, people, this whole business about "guilt by association" with people long dead is absolutely beyond ridiculous. It's completely absurd, in fact.

I'm part European and part American Indian. Should one part of me bow down and apologize to the other part? That would be the result of this silly non-thinking approach. What has happened has happened. Unless you were there THEN and participated in it, you have no responsibility in the matter at all. None.

Sheesh! What a mindless exercise in nothing this whole business was with the very first post.

If some people here want to engage in some sort of self-guilt trip, go right ahead. But leave ALL the rest of us out of it.

 

[Adstar]

Well said Light. Its absurd but in this world absurdity is a way of life for some. think of Bosnia, Rwanda and so on and so on and so on.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hapsburg]

Seriously, people, this whole business about "guilt by association" with people long dead is absolutely beyond ridiculous. It's completely absurd, in fact.

Oh, to me, it's not necissarilly those christians who are descended from bigots who called free-thinkers, "witches". What pisses me off are christians that still call anyone who is not a monotheist a "witch" or something stupid like that.

 

[purple_hairstreak]

I think apologising for something that far in the past is kind of pointless. I think every religion in the world or any strong system of belief or disbelief has discriminated and is discriminating against someone. Will future atheists on this forum be expected to apologise for some of the more radical atheists who insult other people's beliefs? What's the point anyway?

 

[Light]

I think apologising for something that far in the past is kind of pointless. I think every religion in the world or any strong system of belief or disbelief has discriminated and is discriminating against someone. Will future atheists on this forum be expected to apologise for some of the more radical atheists who insult other people's beliefs? What's the point anyway?

There is none. This whole thread was pointless the moment it was started.

 

[Woody]

There is none. This whole thread was pointless the moment it was started.

Guilt by association - the ultimate stupidity. "Association" is all in somebody's head. Check out this news report:

QALAT, Afghanistan - Police killed four people Wednesday as Afghans enraged over drawings of the Prophet Muhammad marched on a U.S. military base in a volatile southern province, directing their anger not against Europe but America.

The U.S. base was targeted because the United States "is the leader of Europe and the leading infidel in the world," said Sher Mohammed, a 40-year-old farmer who suffered a gunshot wound while taking part in the demonstration in the city of Qalat.

That sounds really logical. A cartoon by a Danish newspaper is the the reponsibility of the United States. What is the U.S. supposed to do about it?

Somehow, we are guilty -- could somebody explain the connection so americans can feel a little better, and not make the same mistake again?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Guilt by association - the ultimate stupidity. "Association" is all in somebody's head. Somehow, we are guilty -- could somebody explain the connection so americans can feel a little better, and not make the same mistake again?

*************
M*W: Those who claim to be Neo-Pagans, inherit the beliefs and practices of the Ancient Pagans, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Neo-Nazis, inherit the guilt for the genocide of their predecessors, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Christians, inherit the guilt for the crimes of the Inquisition and the burning of innocents, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who are truly sorry for Ancient Pagan sacrifices would not embrace Neo-Paganism.

Those who are truly sorry for the genocide of the Nazis would not embrace Neo-Nazism.

Those who are truly sorry for the Inquisition and the Burning Times would not embrace Christianity.

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: Those who claim to be Neo-Pagans, inherit the beliefs and practices of the Ancient Pagans, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Neo-Nazis, inherit the guilt for the genocide of their predecessors, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Christians, inherit the guilt for the crimes of the Inquisition and the burning of innocents, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who are truly sorry for Ancient Pagan sacrifices would not embrace Neo-Paganism.

Those who are truly sorry for the genocide of the Nazis would not embrace Neo-Nazism.

Those who are truly sorry for the Inquisition and the Burning Times would not embrace Christianity.

Are you guilty for those mohammed cartoons, and thus owe all arabs an apology, because you embrace the idea of freedom of speech?

 

[Nasor]

M*W, just because someone says he's a Christian doesn't mean he is.

Christians are the followers of Christ. Christ wouldn't burn witches, so those who burned witches were not Christians, they were idiots. But of course, there were both good and evil witches.

This is an example of what is commonly referred to as the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. There is no question that the people who burned witches went to church, prayed, read the bible, and believed that Jesus was the divine son of God who came to earth to die for our sins. Therefore, they were Christians. You can’t simply dismiss someone as not being a “true” Christian every time a Christian does something that you don’t like or find embarrassing.

You say that the people who burned witches were “idiots.” Yet, the bible clearly says that witches exist and that they should be killed. By saying that it’s idiotic to kill witches you are implicitly saying that it’s idiotic to follow god’s orders as handed down in the bible. I find it interesting that most christians today are horrified at the thought of executing witches, even though it very explicitly says in the bible that witches should be killed. If you don’t kill witches then you are ignoring a direct order from God.

 

[Bells]

*************
M*W: Those who claim to be Neo-Pagans, inherit the beliefs and practices of the Ancient Pagans, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Neo-Nazis, inherit the guilt for the genocide of their predecessors, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who claim to be Christians, inherit the guilt for the crimes of the Inquisition and the burning of innocents, and therefore, are just as guilty.

Those who are truly sorry for Ancient Pagan sacrifices would not embrace Neo-Paganism.

Those who are truly sorry for the genocide of the Nazis would not embrace Neo-Nazism.

Those who are truly sorry for the Inquisition and the Burning Times would not embrace Christianity.

Human beings, be they of a religious faith or atheist, are capable of crimes beyond imagination and have committed those crimes. If we were to follow your reasoning, then we should just exterminate ourselves right now because when one thinks back to crimes committed against other human beings and animals in general that we are truly sorry about, then we should cease from embracing humanity and our very existence as a whole.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Are you guilty for those mohammed cartoons, and thus owe all arabs an apology, because you embrace the idea of freedom of speech?

*************
M*W: I haven't followed the recent Mohammad cartoon thing, but generally speaking, my point was that we are born a citizen of the country we live in, and unless we renounce our citizenship when we are mature enough to know what we're doing, that's somewhat different than embracing a religion as a mature person knowing full well it was responsible for atrocities against humanity.

I know it is impossible to ask forgiveness from the folks who were murdered by the Church during the Inquisition just as it isn't very easy, for example, to ask the Japanese people to forgive our country and its leaders (before our time) for the devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I believe true forgiveness must come from the heart even though we would never be able to personally ask to be forgiven for the atrocities our ancestors caused. My point is that we must forgive ourselves which includes forgiving our ancestors by having the desire in our hearts to be forgiven. Asking for forgiveness, regardless of however many thousands of times we have to acknowledge the guilt that we have inherited, is tremendously cleansing to our psyche. We were not there and had no part of the bomb droppings in Japan, just as we were not there and did not participate in The Burning Times, but there is no reason we shouldn't seek forgiveness for those atrocities. The second point I was trying to make was that we also inherit our citizenship, and we do have the power to change our country's actions, even if it is a very slow process through voting for our lawmakers. Embracing Christianity, on the other hand, that was responsible for evil deeds in the past, is the same as being guilty for the horrors that were done in the name of Jesus Christ. Where does the guilt end and the forgiveness begin? If one does not seek forgiveness, if only from the inner dark recesses of one's heart, then one will not be forgiven.

 

[Woody]

M*W:

I haven't followed the recent Mohammad cartoon thing, but generally speaking, my point was that we are born a citizen of the country we live in, and unless we renounce our citizenship when we are mature enough to know what we're doing, that's somewhat different than embracing a religion as a mature person knowing full well it was responsible for atrocities against humanity.

Not all of us are born US citizens -- but all of us in The U.S. have ancestors that chose to move here. They made the choice, and we chose to continue to live here, also we could very well choose to leave.

Therefore, we should apologize to the Muslims for the Danish cartoons, because they are european, and so are our ancestors. Somewhere along the line we could even be related to the cartoonist for the Danish newspaper. If so then our blood is guilty.

Also we in america believe in freedom of speech. Therefore our belief makes us guilty of the transgression. We must renounce our belief in freedom of speech or continue to be guilty by association.

I gest of course!

And if we bowed to them in total humility, and apoligized, do you think it would really be enough? History has shown that reparations for the wrongdoings of ancestors NEVER settle the score. It's a bloody mistake in history that nobody learns and only historians recognize. It never brings contentment - but it does breed resentment and wars.