Why women cannot be priests

[Gordon]

The problem with this thread is that it starts from the premise that the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church represent that of (all) christianity. This of course is simply not correct and whilst Roman Catholics are free to believe whatever they choose and to organise their part of the church however they like, they should NOT represent these views as representative of:

1. all christians or
2. superior to the views of other christians or
3. irrefutably based on scripture.

They are the views of the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy - no more no less. Like all human beliefs they could of course change (as much RC 'orthodoxy' has over the years) but as the Roman Catholic Church is a very autocratic and hierarchical organisation totally controlled by one elderly male individual through its own (all male by definition) clergy, that is probably unlikely.

It is interesting to note that when the real people who make up a church (the congregations) make decisions on this matter (as tends to happen in protestant churches), you do not get this restriction of paid clerical duties to men only.

Of course scripturally all believers are 'priests' as 1 Peter 2 makes clear. Verse 9 says (addressing all believers - so that must include women), 'But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light'

The word 'priesthood' is Strongs word 2406 'hierateuma' which in turn comes from Strongs word 2409 'hiereus' and this is the word used throughout the Gospels, Acts and Hebrews to refer to the traditional Jewish (male) priests.

So scripturally all christians (men and women) are priests in the same way as Old Testament Jewish priests were. The distinction into persons paid to perform certain ceremonies from the unpaid members of the congregation and the rules relating to those offices requiring men only is not scripturally based but is totally a man (sic!) made tradition of a particular part of the church. Other parts of the church organise themselves differently (some having unpaid staff and many having women performing the same duties as men, either paid or unpaid).

regards,


Gordon.

 

[Sarkus]

Why women cannot be priests: of course, this must sound repulsive to the modernist mind whose view of radical freedom demands equality in all things to an absurd degree.

It is you I am finding repulsive, Lawdog.

What greater gift is there but to be a mother? why must they also be father/priests?

One is biological - the other spiritual. Two different things at play.

The Feminist heresy has become so prevalent now in society that it is beginning to erode the health of the western world. Able bodied/minded men can no longer find decent work because women have taken half of the positions.

This means less stable marriages and very unhappy men.

Bollox. If you perceive this problem then it is not with women, or with equality, but with people like you who see women in subservient roles.

Women are forced to behave like men and flaunt their sexuality in a bid for dominance. Just take a look at the film "My super ex girlfriend' and you will know what I mean. People are actually entertained by that crap?

ROTFLMAO!

Priesthood is not a career.

Yes it is. It's a vocation for which one gets paid.

A priest marries the Church, and she is feminine.

The church is feminine? Maybe in terms of vocabulary, but where are the sexual organs?

...ergo, If we allow for women priests, we would also have to permit lesbianism.

Non sequitor.
Firstly - there ain't anything wrong with homosexuality.
Secondly - do you allow female mechanics? Afterall, a car is feminine - and for a woman to "work" on a car - I mean! And if the mechanic presses all the right buttons, the car starts purring appreciatively - and may even go that extra mile for you!!

Men would no longer be willing to make the sacrifice and undertake the spiritual warfare against their natural desires to become and remain priests.

Bollox. If this is the case then the weakness is in their faith - and the fact that they see themselves as elitist in their roles - which is prideful - and thus sinful in the eyes of the church.

Many would leave the priesthood demoralized, and it would be looked upon as just another career. Seminaries would empty out, and in a few years there would be an all-female priesthood with a few effeminate male priests here and there.

LOL!! You are soooo funny.
Again, the problem here would be with the faith of the priests. Not the equality.

In this case mass attendance would drop devastatingly, since most normal women do not want another woman telling them how to run their household or preaching to them on morality.

Don't! Stop it! I can't take any more of this hilarity!

If you truly believe this, Lawdog, then you are the most bigotted, brainwashed buffoon that I have ever had the pleasure of replying to.

And is it not the RC church that is having ever-increasing problems with paedophilic and homosexual priests? Now this wouldn't be related to them not being allowed to have normal relationships with women, would it??

Women cannot be ordained because it is Christ who offers the mass.The priest must stand in persona of Christ. Even God cannot make a two-sided triangle. Gender is not simply something that can be shed or ignored like clothing, it is an integral part of each human being.

Western Men must stand against this usurpation of their natural and supernatural roles.
if they do not, the Muslim men, who really do oppress women,
will dismantel our civilization and force women to the opposite extreme: wear tents instead.

I have grown so weary of your utter drivel since I've been at this site.

I truly hope that this was just a post to generate an angry response. If you truly do believe the excrement that flows from your mouth then I pity you. Truly I do.

 

[Lawdog]

Cris,
Equality is not a right. Its a condition. Its not something that I rely on the government or anything else to grant me. Its a state of one's being. I am not equal in wealth and talents and blessings to others. I am simply not equal. Is this something that I should complain about or write to the ACLU?

There are women, and in our modernist society typically, that are superior to men in either virtue or intellect. Our modernist society creates men who are girlish and abdicators, cowardly, who have no gravitas.

I would not be so foolish as to tell a women that shes not my equal, since she would misunderstand what I am saying, nevertheless, it seems that you always overlook the details of what I write and go for the knee-jerk reaction. I said that they were equal in law and dignity, which are the most important things anyway.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

I would not be so foolish as to tell a women that shes not my equal, since she would misunderstand what I am saying, ……………I said that they were equal in law and dignity, which are the most important things anyway.

No these are not important. It is the way we treat each other that is paramount and your words here betray your real continuing atrocious attitude – that you would not tell her she is inferior is not the issue, and is just cowardly dishonesty, it is that you believe she is inferior and subordinate to the male that is so repulsive. This is Catholic doctrine – it is deliberately discriminatory against a very large segment of the population for no other reason than physical difference.

 

[spidergoat]

So,
Women shouldn't be priests because:

1. They can already be mothers, and should be satisfied with that.
2. Women take jobs away from men.
3. Female priests might "flaunt their sexuality in a bid for dominance".
4. Priesthood is not a career (seems to conflict with #2).
5. The institution of the church is feminine, which means any woman serving it as a priest would resemble a lesbian relationship.
6. Having female priests would somehow prevent male priests from being celibate, thereby forcing them to leave.
7. Women can't be subordinate to other women.
8. Women cannot represent Christ, since he was a man, nevermind that he had a female disciple.
9. Western society must maintain traditional gender roles, or those with more traditional gender roles will take over.

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog,

No these are not important. It is the way we treat each other that is paramount and your words here betray your real continuing atrocious attitude – that you would not tell her she is inferior is not the issue, and is just cowardly dishonesty, it is that you believe she is inferior and subordinate to the male that is so repulsive. This is Catholic doctrine – it is deliberately discriminatory against a very large segment of the population for no other reason than physical difference.

I work with Catholic feminists everyday who know my convictions and disagree. They have positions of great authority and influence. We still get along well because I treat them with respect. i acknowledge that they are spiritual and women. which is better than an atheist who can only see them as organisms, since for an atheist sexuality is an accidental, and so there can be no universal norm of knowing, or even universals, for that implies deity.

 

[Lawdog]

So,
Women shouldn't be priests because:

1. They can already be mothers, and should be satisfied with that.
2. Women take jobs away from men.
3. Female priests might "flaunt their sexuality in a bid for dominance".
4. Priesthood is not a career (seems to conflict with #2).
5. The institution of the church is feminine, which means any woman serving it as a priest would resemble a lesbian relationship.
6. Having female priests would somehow prevent male priests from being celibate, thereby forcing them to leave.
7. Women can't be subordinate to other women.
8. Women cannot represent Christ, since he was a man, nevermind that he had a female disciple.
9. Western society must maintain traditional gender roles, or those with more traditional gender roles will take over.

A few reasons, some of which are speculative.
One could say that the work and vocation of a priest is one thing. Its not married+career.

 

[Lawdog]

Of course scripturally all believers are 'priests' as 1 Peter 2 makes clear. Verse 9 says (addressing all believers - so that must include women), 'But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light'

So in the old testament also then everyone was of the order of Melchisedek? Any Jew was allowed into the sanctuary to see the Holy of Holies?

Away with your protestant misinterpretation of Holy Writ!

 

[spidergoat]

1. Men can be fathers, maybe they should be satisfied with that.
2. Men can take jobs away from men, too, it's called fair competition.
3. Respect, my ass! You think all women use their physical attraction for power, and that reveals your innate fear and repression of normal sexuality.
4. I think women would make good priests, since they are more empathic than men, and more in control of their libido, so they wouldn't commit all that rape attributed to Catholic priests.
5. Irrational fear of female companionship, not everything is sexual, you know. I suppose no women should captain a ship, since that is thought of as female? Also, the church isn't a chick, it's gender neutral.
6. I don't see why female priests would be any more of a temptation than female choir singers. In fact, let them marry the priests and we will all be happier. (It works for Jews.)
7. Irrational stereotype, women deal with female supervisors in the business world all the time.
8. Mary Magdalene.
9. huh?

 

[Lawdog]

Ok. You got that out and seem to be making some important points.
But since we believe that our religion is revealed and not designed by humans, that many of its rules come from God and we are not allowed to change it, nor would be able to, what do you expect us to do?

 

[stu43t]

There are women priests in the Church of England - whats the problem????

 

[stu43t]

In a male-dominated religion, is it any wonder that the greater importance is put on the destruction of life? And that's why women cannot be priests--because the Christian god does not want them to be;

Praggy you're a prat - "male-dominated religion" ????

Praggy - The Queen of England (FYI is female) is the Head of the Church Of England.

Lawdog - your ideas on this are unbelievably infantile, I hope you are joking.

 

[stu43t]

Get with the times - The Church of England has!

Gay cleric's 'wedding' to partner

A cathedral congregation of about 300 broke into applause when it was announced on Sunday.

Rev Richard Kirker, general secretary of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, welcomed the dean's partnership.

He said: "It is a delightful occasion for them both but I am even more pleased that the congregation reacted so warmly and arranged a reception after the main service to toast their good health."

 

[spidergoat]

Ok. You got that out and seem to be making some important points.
But since we believe that our religion is revealed and not designed by humans, that many of its rules come from God and we are not allowed to change it, nor would be able to, what do you expect us to do?

Jesus has a female disciple. That fact seems to contradict your view. I also think there is much more about your religion than appears in the bible, cultural assumptions and prejudice accumulated over the years.

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

i acknowledge that they are spiritual and women.

So they can’t be priests, because? I don’t see why you have an issue. If they can be intellectually strong, and often stronger than males, and are spiritual, then really, what is the problem?

which is better than an atheist who can only see them as organisms,

Are we not all organisms? I sense you were attempting an insult but I can’t see it.

since for an atheist sexuality is an accidental,

I think you have become even more confused. We were discussing gender not sexuality – that’s an entirely different subject. Please try to focus on the topic at hand. Gender is the result of genetics and hormones and the effectiveness of the early growth process within the womb – this is fact.

and so there can be no universal norm of knowing, or even universals, for that implies deity.

And why is that relevant to the topic, not that I really understand your point?

 

[Cris]

Lawdog,

we believe that our religion is revealed and not designed by humans, that many of its rules come from God and we are not allowed to change it, nor would be able to, what do you expect us to do?

Well firstly test these rules to see if they make sense? If one is idiotic then don't blindly follow it like an automaton - you have a brain use it.

 

[spidergoat]

since for an atheist sexuality is an accidental,

Actually, sex is unexplainable from a religous perspective. Only evolution explains the need for it, since combining half of two genomes provides natural selection with the variation it needs to make evolution happen.

 

[Cris]

And since there is meant to be only ONE god then it must be asexual making the whole gender issue of representing Christ somewhat mute.

Hmm - but it doesn't need to reproduce so I guess it is really without gender.

 

[Lawdog]

Get with the times - The Church of England has!

Gay cleric's 'wedding' to partner

A cathedral congregation of about 300 broke into applause when it was announced on Sunday.

Rev Richard Kirker, general secretary of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, welcomed the dean's partnership.

He said: "It is a delightful occasion for them both but I am even more pleased that the congregation reacted so warmly and arranged a reception after the main service to toast their good health."

Thats just aweful. aweful. The poor Church of England...should never have separated from Rome. This "marriage" does not exist, it cannot happen between two of the same gender. This is a very serious distortion on a public scale. A spiritual nuclear bomb in England. It deteriorates the definition of marriage as is traditionally understood. The fact that they are promising to remain celebate and are clergy makes it all the more disturbing, since it goes contrary and makes seem accidental to one of the most foundational purposes of marriage, the procreation and rearing of children.

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog,

Well firstly test these rules to see if they make sense? If one is idiotic then don't blindly follow it like an automaton - you have a brain use it.

Cris: I said before, I think that doctrines should be examined and thought about.
I have done this. The reason you do not is because its a useless exercise for you. I say that it is you who are blindly following your own tyrannic style of atheist scrutiny. (Neverheless I still hold you in high regard).