Why We Need Good Religion...

Diogenes' Dog

Subvert the dominant cliche...
Registered Senior Member
Most arguments in this forum focus on “What evidence is there that God exists?” However, I want to give that question a rest and look at religion from a different perspective. I believe that the need for a rational religion is urgent, our future depends on it, and that atheists and theists will one day need to co-operate to hammer out a rational and religious worldview....
This is why:


The Existential Problem
We all have a problem as humans: we are finite beings, in perishable bodies, viewing the world from a single very limited point of view. We also seem to be disconnected from that world. According to Descarte we seem subjectively to be a res cogitans “in here”, with the objective world of res extensa existing “out there”.

This Cartesian schism has had huge effects on our attitude towards our world. We have ruthlessly exploited the earths resources : animal, vegetable and mineral, in the name of individual profit. Our waste we dump onto land, in the air, in rivers and in the sea. Global warming is just one effect. We need a new ethic that re-connects us to our world, and reinforces our oneness with Nature.

Religion is Reconnection
That is the function of religion. Literally re-ligion (Etymology: Latin; ligo, ligere) means to re-bind or re-connect. Despite the many stupidities of traditional religion, it is this need to reconnect; with other people, with Nature and with the Universe at large – to feel connected and part of the greater Whole, that is the urgent reason we need a rational religion. We need it to save the planet, if for no other reason.

One of the commonest ‘spiritual’ experiences, which many ordinary people have had is exactly that sense of being at “One” with the universe or “Cosmic consciousness”. It happens to all kinds of people in all cultures. This is not delusion: Science shows we ARE part of the universe around us, so that sense of unity and connection is entirely realistic. It is our normal state of feeling set apart from everything around us that is the delusion.

Primitive Religion
Belief in God or gods is a primitive attempt to engage in just such a relationship with Nature or with those things in the world around us. Many cultures worship the earth as a mother goddess, the people belong to the land, which feeds them. Therefore they treat the environment with great respect. James Lovelock’s “Gaia” is an attempt to do the same for us. These primitive beliefs probably have had great survival value.

I believe that “God” is the Occidental cultural personification of that same Whole, that is everything, to which we try to reconnect. The concept has been twisted out of shape into some individualistic royalty figure who (like us) stands set apart from everything, and who occasionally intervenes to punish sinners when the whim takes Him, before sending any opposition to Hell for ever, after they are dead. This is a travesty, and Dawkins, Dennett and others are quite right to demolish this image!


The Individual "I am" and the Whole of Being
So, if we reject that individualistic “God” what is the holistic alternative?

God says in the book of Exodus “I am that I am”. Whatever the “I am” within us is: this consciousness would seem to be some process arising from a brain. Now, a similar process of consciousness would seem to be going on in all complex brains. Creatures and persons with consciousness are everywhere, who (we can assume) also experience the world from a specific embodied point of view, just like us.

My conjecture is therefore that “I am” not just this body or this identity. These are only aspects of my specific biology and circumstance at this time and place. I could be transplanted to another body or given another identity or set of memories and yet still be an “I am”. My present experience is a localised manifestation of a universal process called “consciousness”, which sees the world from this specific point of view. “I” am also the name you give to the process of consciousness going on in your body, living your life, seeing the world from your point of view.

If I am right, then I am not just this one life, I am ALL conscious life.

Eternal Life
The Upanishads say the goal of spiritual life is: “To see all beings in yourself and yourself in all beings” When the Bible speaks of “Eternal Life”, I believe it is saying we are all consciousness in this way. We cannot die to experience oblivion, for that is an oxymoron. We are embodied consciousness, and so we do not cease to exist until the last consciousness is extinguished.

There are consequences flowing from this. How I treat you, or the cat next door, or even the animals I eat, is therefore how I treat myself, seen in a mirror. Viewed objectively, there is no difference to distinguish the “I” in me from the “I” in you. So, just as I give money in the present, for the future “I” that will be me when I’m old, so the money I may give to someone in Africa, is given to the “I” that is living in Africa, and who experiences being an embodied “I” from there just as much as the “I” that is here.

Conclusion - Heaven or Hell?
“God” then need not be some monstrous dictator, but the unity of all consciousness in the universe (and other universes). "I am that I am" - that is also you, me and everywhere. Seeing ourselves as isolated individuals is our common delusion, and the way to Hobbes vision of “Every man at war with every other”. Seeing ourselves as integral parts of a greater whole is salvation – the vision that we might co-operate. That is why we need religion to survive.

As we get more technologically powerful, the world we create for ourselves, depends on how we see ourselves and our mutual relationship with each other and with Nature. That is the urgent reason why we need to reconnect – and co-operate to redefine a rational religion that embraces everyone and everthing in diverse unity. That is the job of religion.
 
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You don't need religion to be spiritual.
Spirituality can make all the connections withoput pretending to know in something unknown.
Religion doesn't recconect people, even if it was meant to. It separates people that don't have the same beliefs.
All scriptures tell stories that can be valuable resources to give insight into our ancestors minds, but no scriptures should be believed literally!
If I were to believe in 'God', my version of 'God' ould be much like singularity.
The versions of 'God' in religious texts is talking about something different, a su[preme being, a smarter alien perhaps, but not a 'God'.
'God' is not a being, 'God' is everything. We are all a part of 'God'. If 'God' is indeed sigularity. If 'God' is just a fancy word for ET than religion has a better shot at some truth, lol.
Heaven and Hell, lol - another thing believed in because we don't like it when we don't know, and don't understand, so we grab hold of something to blindly put our faith in. I do feel afterlife is probable, but what afterlife is I don't know, and if we can't take our conscious with us, it likel;y doesn't matter, it will be a new page in a new journey that can't be understood till that path is crossed.

Problem is, we are very limitted.
We only see the world with 2 eyes.
Everyone perceives things differently, everyone lives their own unique experiences, everyone develops beliefs based on their truth, which is based on their perceptions.
No ones truth is the same, no ones perceptions are the same, no ones experiences are the same.
We get so lost in all the differences that we perceive, we don't try to see things for all percpectives.
We'd rather believe blindly than admit we don't know. Not knowing scares us. Not understanding frustrates us. For some strange reason, we almost 'need' to believe in something, or at least we seem to believe that!!!

Hope we know something soon, so we can get rid of all the comfort blankets we still have wrapped around us and we can finally stop pouring our hope into blind faith without question.
 
The only religions that fit the bill are Buddhism (stripped of all supernatural components) and Taoism, maybe Jainism and some other more obscure ones. The idea of a soul, afterlife, and a personal God, are not compatible with reason or ecology. In any case, it is just wishful thinking to suggest that a less aggressive, less personally appealing religion will ever replace the present situation.
 
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@ Diogenes' dog and Pipes 75:
First of all, believe it or not I have never been able to figure out how to quote just a part of the posts. Sorry I am computer/internet challenged. Any help is welcome!:)

I believe you are both right when you think that we need a multiple approach to spirituality. I believe we should include science like physics and psychology in the mix.

I use this analogy with my friends: if we close one eye (to lose the stereoscopic vision)and observe a real object we can see (one truth), for instance a cup you have on your desk. If we observe it from the bottom we would say: "the truth is flat and round". If me observe it from the top we will say: "No! the truth may be round but it has a cavity and have some coffee in it", if we look it from the side we will say: " No, the truth is cilyndrical and has a handle".
Every point of view is right somehow, yet we will know the real truth only when we can see it from all points of view, the more we can include the more accurate our perception would be....
 
The only religions that fit the bill are Buddhism (stripped of all supernatural components) and Taoism, maybe Jainism and some other more obscure ones. The idea of a soul, afterlife, and a personal God, are not compatible with reason or ecology. In any case, it is just wishful thinking to suggest that a less aggressive, less personally appealing religion will ever replace the present situation.

I agree with your rational approach, we are at a dead end in the spiritual arena. Now, what if science could one day prove the existence of ghosts, for instance. Would this change the concept of the possibility of a soul or an after life?
 
I agree with your rational approach, we are at a dead end in the spiritual arena. Now, what if science could one day prove the existence of ghosts, for instance. Would this change the concept of the possibility of a soul or an after life?

Sure. But we aren't at a "dead end" by using rationality, only limiting our spiritual practice to the real. The real will always be far more rewarding than the fake.
 
Sure. But we aren't at a "dead end" by using rationality, only limiting our spiritual practice to the real. The real will always be far more rewarding than the fake.


I agree, rationality can take us very far in the spiritual arena, and we have a lot to elaborate, a long way to go. But, it is hard for me to accept that all we learn and evolve just dissapear when we die. The only way it may make sense is that we keep our learning after physical death.
 
The mind is physical. We know this because stimulation of the brain can evoke sensations and memories. Damage to specific areas of the brain effect memory and personality. Does everything that an animal learns also die? Do fleas go to heaven or just people? What makes us so special? (we usually say it's our huge brains).
 
You don't need religion to be spiritual.
Spirituality can make all the connections withoput pretending to know in something unknown. Religion doesn't recconect people, even if it was meant to. It separates people that don't have the same beliefs.
I think you are right - religion has become sectarian. However, I'm now a bit suspicious of people who describe themselves as 'spiritual', as it can mean anything from 'a nice person' to believing aliens have infiltrated human society.

In advocating "Religion" I am using in it's original broadest sense of believing in an ultimate unity that connects all of us, despite our diversity, together. I think many atheists also share that aspiration, and express it as humanism.
If I were to believe in 'God', my version of 'God' ould be much like singularity.The versions of 'God' in religious texts is talking about something different, a su[preme being, a smarter alien perhaps, but not a 'God'.
'God' is not a being, 'God' is everything. We are all a part of 'God'. If 'God' is indeed sigularity. If 'God' is just a fancy word for ET than religion has a better shot at some truth, lol.
I agree Pipes - I believe that God is everything. God is the whole unity of which we are individual expressions. I choose 'Being' as something of ultimate concern to us, to show how a holistic approach work.
Pipes said:
Heaven and Hell, lol - another thing believed in because we don't like it when we don't know, and don't understand, so we grab hold of something to blindly put our faith in.
I use it only in the choice we have of creating for ourselves either a utopia or dystopia. I don't believe in it as an afterlife concept - it's too unlikely.
Pipes said:
I do feel afterlife is probable, but what afterlife is I don't know, and if we can't take our conscious with us, it likel;y doesn't matter, it will be a new page in a new journey that can't be understood till that path is crossed.
I like your attitude of 'wait and see'. I think that is all we can do. However, rationally, I cannot see that our personalities or identities can survive destruction of our brains - they seem so closely correlated. I'm probably closer to Spidergoat's view here. However, I think (my = our) consciousness survives, to experience life in another body.
Pipes said:
Problem is, we are very limitted... We get so lost in all the differences that we perceive, we don't try to see things for all percpectives.
Absolutely! Making the attempt to see the whole from all sides, to get the meta-perspective, is the only way to transcend those different perspectives.
 
@ Diogenes' dog and Pipes 75:
First of all, believe it or not I have never been able to figure out how to quote just a part of the posts. Sorry I am computer/internet challenged. Any help is welcome!:)
I hope Spidergoat's advice worked OK yasmin.
You can also...

1) Scroll down, and find the text you want to copy.
2) Copy the text you want to quote (right click and choose 'copy'),
3) Paste (right click and choose 'paste') it into your reply and
4) Highlight the pasted text and click the little 'quote' icon, that looks like a square speech bubble.
5) Change the first "[ QUOTE]" to "[ QUOTE=name-of-person]" at the start of your quote.
6) Click the 'preview post' button to see if it worked.

yasmin said:
I believe you are both right when you think that we need a multiple approach to spirituality. I believe we should include science like physics and psychology in the mix.

I use this analogy with my friends: if we close one eye (to lose the stereoscopic vision)and observe a real object we can see (one truth), for instance a cup you have on your desk. If we observe it from the bottom we would say: "the truth is flat and round". If me observe it from the top we will say: "No! the truth may be round but it has a cavity and have some coffee in it", if we look it from the side we will say: " No, the truth is cilyndrical and has a handle".
Every point of view is right somehow, yet we will know the real truth only when we can see it from all points of view, the more we can include the more accurate our perception would be....
I couldn't agree more! You and I are thinking along the same lines yasmin! :D

We all have only aspects of the whole truth... We should look for the greater whole, not cling to our little bit.
 
The only religions that fit the bill are Buddhism (stripped of all supernatural components) and Taoism, maybe Jainism and some other more obscure ones. The idea of a soul, afterlife, and a personal God, are not compatible with reason or ecology. In any case, it is just wishful thinking to suggest that a less aggressive, less personally appealing religion will ever replace the present situation.
You and I see things very differently SG!

Buddhism, Taoism etc. are all climbing the same mountain but from different cultural perspectives. Jewish, Sufi and Christian mystics have very similar practices and values to the Oriental traditions e.g. 'Nirvana' and the 'Kingdom of Heaven' are not very different. The "Via Negativa" for instance in Christian mysticism is very like the practice of 'Emptiness' in traditional Mahayana Buddhism, and also like the 'Void' of Taoism.

Devotion to a personal God (as the totality of everything), is like Bhakti yoga in Hinduism. Pure-Land Buddhists practice devotion to the Amida Buddha (Buddha of Compassion), and Taoism has the 'Tao', 'Way' or 'Principle' which is very like the Hebrew God as the mysterious unnamable Source of all things, and can be allied to Jesus saying "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life".

These traditions arose from very different cultures. However, the degree of convergence is startling! It is also evidence of an underlying reality that is being described.

As for a soul and an afterlife, I believe we have an afterlife only because consciousness (soul) is ubiquitous in Nature. I and you are each just one transitory node of the same consciousness (soul) that experiences the world first hand in ALL beings. Our fate is therefore reincarnation. It all adds up.
 
The mind is physical. We know this because stimulation of the brain can evoke sensations and memories. Damage to specific areas of the brain effect memory and personality. Does everything that an animal learns also die? Do fleas go to heaven or just people? What makes us so special? (we usually say it's our huge brains).
If the mind is physical, what is a thought made of SG? How much mass has the number 3? How big is the taste of strawberries? How much energy in joules has Darwin's theory of evolution? Reductio ad absurdum?

What you mean is that the brain and mind are closely correlated. However, they are not the same. Mind is NOT physical!

Spidergoat said:
Sure. But we aren't at a "dead end" by using rationality, only limiting our spiritual practice to the real. The real will always be far more rewarding than the fake.

Mind is real, but matter could be mental, or 'fake'! Can you provide any evidence it is not? ;)
 
DD, not to put a downer on what you're discussing, but "religion", regardless of tenets held, is an organised approach to something.

You have yet to detail anywhere why what you propose requires organisation?

What I see in your lengthy OP is a call for nothing more than (re)education on some topics in line with your opinions on various matters, and a consensus opinion on the nature of the universe.
Are we to be forced / coerced into believing some unified philosophical opinion? What of those who do not wish to believe, or believe something different?

And once you have a consensus... then what? Why must there be a religion, an organised approach to it? Do you really think that a religious approach can lead where an individual approach can not?
If so - why? Please explain it - which you haven't.

Further, all religions require a belief in something for which there is no evidence - and all religions fail Occam's razor compared to an entirely naturalistic world-view with no "shared consciousness", "oneness" or other such unproven and mostly unprovable claims.
Until you remove everything for which there is no evidence you can not lay claim to rationality above an alternative that does.

Rational religion... hmmm.
There might be rationality for individuals behind an organisation (sense of community etc), or behind the holding of beliefs (sense of well-being / comfort) - but these speak nothing of the reality of those beliefs - and can be achieved more rationally, but possibly with more effort given the existing situation.

So please - why the need for a religion as opposed to merely an individual understanding?
 
If the mind is physical, what is a thought made of SG? How much mass has the number 3? How big is the taste of strawberries? How much energy in joules has Darwin's theory of evolution? Reductio ad absurdum?

What you mean is that the brain and mind are closely correlated. However, they are not the same. Mind is NOT physical!
Perhaps you misunderstand what is meant by referring to something as physical...

Do you consider a pattern as "physical".
If not - what is a pattern?

If yes - what is the difference between "mind" and a pattern?
 
These traditions arose from very different cultures. However, the degree of convergence is startling! It is also evidence of an underlying reality that is being described.

As for a soul and an afterlife, I believe we have an afterlife only because consciousness (soul) is ubiquitous in Nature. I and you are each just one transitory node of the same consciousness (soul) that experiences the world first hand in ALL beings. Our fate is therefore reincarnation. It all adds up.

You are hinting at something, but missed the mark. What happened around the same time in cultures all around the world was a kind of awakening, a revolution in thinking about humanity as it relates to the universe. In the mid-east it was more about a devine being, but it did stress the individual. In the far east, the focus was about the illusion of ego and the unity of all things. Tao is very different from the concept of God. It is passive and non-personal. It makes no particular supernatural claims but emphasizes nature. I think the pure land school is ridiculous, as are all the other Buddhist cultish sects where Buddha himself is worshipped. They completely missed the point.

God-based religions view man as separate from nature, and nature as just a stepping stone to a "higher" reality.

We have an afterlife because the body is immortal, life is immortal. Thought-forms are passed on through culture, no thoughts are your own, and no thought exist independently of the body.


If the mind is physical, what is a thought made of SG? How much mass has the number 3? How big is the taste of strawberries? How much energy in joules has Darwin's theory of evolution? Reductio ad absurdum?

What you mean is that the brain and mind are closely correlated. However, they are not the same. Mind is NOT physical!

Mind is real, but matter could be mental, or 'fake'! Can you provide any evidence it is not? ;)

When I say physical, I don't just mean matter, but also energy. Thought is a process, an electrochemical reaction to stimuli- internal and external. The mind shows no qualities that are not physical. If I gave you a lobotomy, your personality would no longer exist, so much for the soul. Matter isn't mental, because we can alter matter and cross check the perception of it across multiple people. The observation of matter is statistically reliable.
 
Most arguments in this forum focus on “What evidence is there that God exists?”

That does seem like the most reasonable place to begin. But I suppose you'd like to skip that step? ;)

I believe that the need for a rational religion is urgent

No problemo...welcome to secular humanism. Wow that was easy! Or if you are a traditionalist some forms of confusionism, Epicureanism and Buddhism all do fine avoiding god altogether. Of course if you want to keep your superstitions none of the above really care.

They all address your questions.
 
Thank you!:rolleyes:

Cheeky considering you can't figure it out.

OK, look at the post you want to reply to. Directly under the name is a button that says "quote."

Right click the button and open it up in a new tab.

this will give you some thing like this:

[ QUOTE=yasmin;2365596]Thank you!:rolleyes :[ /QUOTE]

The part in the [ ] are tags which start and end the quote process. Anything in between them is going to be quoted.

To make more quotes for long text highlight the text by left click+hold and the drag over it with the mouse and then unhold and left click the quote button which looks like a dialog bubble and is to the right of the button which looks like a mountain and to the left of the button which look like #.

Or you can manually enter [ QUOTE] stuff to be quoted [ /QUOTE] (leave off the space inside the tag)

So what you see looks something like this (minus the extra space in "[ Q"):
===
[ QUOTE=yasmin;2365596]Thank you!:[ /QUOTE]

You are welcome.

[ QUOTE]:rolleyes :[ /QUOTE]

Play nice.

===

Resulting in:

===
Thank you!

You are welcome.


Play nice.

===
 
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