Why is there so much unjust suffering in this world despite God?

[spamandham]

Why does god not do something about unjust suffering?

Why does god allow so much confusion about who he is such that there are literally thousands of religions, most of which conflict with eachother?

Why doesn't god's plan seem to make any sense?

Why doesn't god ever heal amputees?

Some possible answers:
1. God is impersonal. He just doesn't care what happens to you or anyone else. :bugeye:

2. God is personal but impotent. He cares, but for some reason can't do anything about it. Maybe it violates the prime directive to interfere or something.

3. God is insane. He has the power and desire to interfere, but doesn't do it BECAUSE he wants to. :m:

4. God doesn't exist.

 

[Prince_James]

SamCDKey:

I'm having an exceedingly difficult time discerning whether or not you are joking.

Evil is a moral construct. Why is man evil? Or God? Do you believe that animals can be evil? Or insects? Do they not kill, maim. torture?

If God can be held to be good and held to be perfect, then yes, all things are either good or evil. If God is not good, nor evil, but amoral, then we have no reason to discuss morality in relation to him. Indeed, morality becomes something else entirely.

Morality is a subjective construct.

Can you seek harm for harm's sake?

We are naught but leaves fluttering in the breeze, fooling ourselves into believing we have choices and direction.
Heed the words of the wise guru.

"I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me."

LightGigantic:

therefore such acts of non-goodness are relegated to the material world - just like criminal acts in a state are relegated to a prison (with the view of atonement etc)

Perfect goodness cannot tolerate their existence even in a material world or in a prison. It can only tolerate the complete and utter annihilation of all evil, lest it be something less than perfect goodness.

thats why they are not accepted in the spiritual realm for as long as they exhibit the symptoms of ignorance - ignorance is not the eternal companion of the living entity

Perfect goodness cannot see them exist in -any- realm. Evil is contradictory to perfect goodness and therefore must perfect goodness stamp it out.

of course he can - he is independent and can do whatever he wants - just like a king can open the jails and let all the prisoners out of death row (which they sometimes do on special days or even sometimes when they are intoxicated with delight) - but such things are of course the exception rather than the rule - generally anyone who goes to jail is expected to go through tthe process of reform as opposed to collecting the causeless mercy of the king.

Then you all ready have shown that God is flawed profoundly. That our nature is open change by God's power indicts God of evil. He is therefore not perfectly good.

Given that the soul of the living entity is eternal and that the notion of time is a special construction for the material world it seems that god fits the bill

Eternity must consist of an infinite series of infinitely small points of time. In order to be eternal, time must exist.

linear time is a construct of the conditioned world, just like you can have a dream where you exist for 100 years in a 2 hour nap

Yet the material world is real and, as noted above, no eternal world can exist apart from time.

Given that the activities of evil are exhibited in linear time (which bears no parrallel to t he eternity of the soul) in temporary bodies composed of dull matter (which also bears no parallel to the eternal form of the soul that does not diminish) it appears that the activities of evil exist only on the most insubstantial of worlds - but despite this by experiencing this phantasmagorial existence th el iving entity can get re-instated in their eternal position - many times people say that god is omnipotent but they don't actually understand the extent of the definition (BTW - the only evil from god's perspective is that teh living entity is taking pleasure in the medium of ignorance, due to a desire to be seperate from him - this is what he is addressing by granting us this existence of action and reaction in the material world)

To say that God allows and facillitates the action and reaction which allows for ignorance's continued activity is to indict God further of evil. Moreover, as noted, even on an "insubstantial level" evil cannot be tolerated by perfect goodness.

Superluminal:

All of our actions and decisions are to be found in the most minute details of particle motion and in the grandest expanses of space and time.

That things are determined means what?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

“ therefore such acts of non-goodness are relegated to the material world - just like criminal acts in a state are relegated to a prison (with the view of atonement etc) ”

Perfect goodness cannot tolerate their existence even in a material world or in a prison. It can only tolerate the complete and utter annihilation of all evil, lest it be something less than perfect goodness.

And it is getting annhilated - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time

“ thats why they are not accepted in the spiritual realm for as long as they exhibit the symptoms of ignorance - ignorance is not the eternal companion of the living entity ”

Perfect goodness cannot see them exist in -any- realm. Evil is contradictory to perfect goodness and therefore must perfect goodness stamp it out.

It is getting stamped out - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time

“ of course he can - he is independent and can do whatever he wants - just like a king can open the jails and let all the prisoners out of death row (which they sometimes do on special days or even sometimes when they are intoxicated with delight) - but such things are of course the exception rather than the rule - generally anyone who goes to jail is expected to go through tthe process of reform as opposed to collecting the causeless mercy of the king. ”

Then you all ready have shown that God is flawed profoundly. That our nature is open change by God's power indicts God of evil. He is therefore not perfectly good.

Its not by force it is by opportunity - just like the king can open the prison doors but the inmate can decide to stay in if he wants - the ultimate issue is that it is your choice

“ Given that the soul of the living entity is eternal and that the notion of time is a special construction for the material world it seems that god fits the bill ”

Eternity must consist of an infinite series of infinitely small points of time. In order to be eternal, time must exist.

Only from your perspective of material conditioning - you have no idea how the fabric of eternity is constructed and you have no idea of god's omnipotency either . Your hypithesis may seem suitable by dint of your logic, but because you are fallible (imperfect senses, cheating propensity, tendency to make mistakes and teh cheating propensity - of course not just you personally, but all conditioned souls) your logic is also fallible, just like you can speculate about the nature of nothingness by dint of your experience of somethingness (in otherwords your speculative process is faulty because you work out of a framework of diametrical opposites to determine th e other end of the scale that you are not familiar with - and you can even argue that the scale that you think is familair to you, ie this material world, also evades you on a few key issues too). How can you determine the nature of the eternal realm when even this phenomenal world is beyond you?

“ linear time is a construct of the conditioned world, just like you can have a dream where you exist for 100 years in a 2 hour nap ”

Yet the material world is real and, as noted above, no eternal world can exist apart from time.

real, like a dream is real when you are dreaming - a dream is not real when you wake up - and your insistence for the standards of an eternal realm is an entirely fallible premise

“ Given that the activities of evil are exhibited in linear time (which bears no parrallel to t he eternity of the soul) in temporary bodies composed of dull matter (which also bears no parallel to the eternal form of the soul that does not diminish) it appears that the activities of evil exist only on the most insubstantial of worlds - but despite this by experiencing this phantasmagorial existence th el iving entity can get re-instated in their eternal position - many times people say that god is omnipotent but they don't actually understand the extent of the definition (BTW - the only evil from god's perspective is that teh living entity is taking pleasure in the medium of ignorance, due to a desire to be seperate from him - this is what he is addressing by granting us this existence of action and reaction in the material world) ”

To say that God allows and facillitates the action and reaction which allows for ignorance's continued activity is to indict God further of evil.

But thats the point - it doesn't continue - everyone's days in ignorance are numbered because the soul is eternal and ignorance is not an eternal companion of the soul - from the souls perspective, the transition from ignorance to liberation is quicker than th e blinking of an eye

Moreover, as noted, even on an "insubstantial level" evil cannot be tolerated by perfect goodness.

By god's omnipotency, he has rendered the performance of evil totally inconsequential - its just like the evil one performs in some vague dream - when you wake up the dream can barely be remembered and by the time you are well into the swing of your morning it has completely vacated your mind

 

[lightgigantic]

spamandham

Why does god not do something about unjust suffering?

What makes you so sure he doesn't?

Why does god allow so much confusion about who he is such that there are literally thousands of religions, most of which conflict with eachother?

Perhaps we just like to argue - this site is a prime example

Why doesn't god's plan seem to make any sense?

Probably because you are not god

Why doesn't god ever heal amputees?

And how exactly would that benefit them, since there are many more millions of people with fully intact limbs who are also in a suffering condition?

Some possible answers:
1. God is impersonal. He just doesn't care what happens to you or anyone else. :bugeye:

Or alternatively we are impersonal and are not really serious about understanding god (and then wonder why it hurts when we hit ourself in the head with a hammer)

2. God is personal but impotent. He cares, but for some reason can't do anything about it. Maybe it violates the prime directive to interfere or something.

Or alternatively we have been created as eternal particles with free will, and for god to charge onto the scene with his potencies would violate the conditions of our existence

3. God is insane. He has the power and desire to interfere, but doesn't do it BECAUSE he wants to. :m:

Or he doesn't interfere because we literally push him away at every moment and are adverse to the very notion of religion and the mention of the word "god"

4. God doesn't exist.

[/QUOTE]
Or alternatively the notion of god as your personal labourer in your private garden of selfishness doesn't exist.

 

[Prince_James]

Light Gigantic:

And it is getting annhilated - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time.

It is getting stamped out - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time.

I'd have you show how it is illusory?

Its not by force it is by opportunity - just like the king can open the prison doors but the inmate can decide to stay in if he wants - the ultimate issue is that it is your choice

Pure goodness cannot accept mere opportunity. To allow opportunity to trump action is to subjugate goodness to another end.

Only from your perspective of material conditioning - you have no idea how the fabric of eternity is constructed and you have no idea of god's omnipotency either . Your hypithesis may seem suitable by dint of your logic, but because you are fallible (imperfect senses, cheating propensity, tendency to make mistakes and teh cheating propensity - of course not just you personally, but all conditioned souls) your logic is also fallible, just like you can speculate about the nature of nothingness by dint of your experience of somethingness (in otherwords your speculative process is faulty because you work out of a framework of diametrical opposites to determine th e other end of the scale that you are not familiar with - and you can even argue that the scale that you think is familair to you, ie this material world, also evades you on a few key issues too). How can you determine the nature of the eternal realm when even this phenomenal world is beyond you?

Very simply: Eternity is a concept which is remarkably simple. It is the extent of infinite time. In order to be so made, it must consist of an infinite series of infinitely small points. This is the very definition of having an infinite expanse in time.

real, like a dream is real when you are dreaming - a dream is not real when you wake up - and your insistence for the standards of an eternal realm is an entirely fallible premise

It's real enough to give experiences to this "soul" is it not?

But thats the point - it doesn't continue - everyone's days in ignorance are numbered because the soul is eternal and ignorance is not an eternal companion of the soul - from the souls perspective, the transition from ignorance to liberation is quicker than th e blinking of an eye

Is it not possible that souls shall exist indefinitely in ignorance?

By god's omnipotency, he has rendered the performance of evil totally inconsequential - its just like the evil one performs in some vague dream - when you wake up the dream can barely be remembered and by the time you are well into the swing of your morning it has completely vacated your mind

Inconsequential is not irradicated.

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

“ And it is getting annhilated - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time.

It is getting stamped out - in the material world which operates out of the illusion of linear time. ”

I'd have you show how it is illusory?

You mean a scriptural quote or direct perception of god ??(please don't give me another opportunity to drop the analogy about the electron or the president of the united states-lol )

“ Its not by force it is by opportunity - just like the king can open the prison doors but the inmate can decide to stay in if he wants - the ultimate issue is that it is your choice ”

Pure goodness cannot accept mere opportunity. To allow opportunity to trump action is to subjugate goodness to another end.

How can an opportunity be lost in a linear frame work which bears no impact on eternity?

“ real, like a dream is real when you are dreaming - a dream is not real when you wake up - and your insistence for the standards of an eternal realm is an entirely fallible premise ”

It's real enough to give experiences to this "soul" is it not?

No - there are scriptural quotes that explain how the soul is doing absolutely nothing in this world

BG 5.8-9: A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them.

“ But thats the point - it doesn't continue - everyone's days in ignorance are numbered because the soul is eternal and ignorance is not an eternal companion of the soul - from the souls perspective, the transition from ignorance to liberation is quicker than th e blinking of an eye ”

Is it not possible that souls shall exist indefinitely in ignorance?

There is the term nitya baddha - constantly conditioned (it doesn't mean sanatana - eternal or indefinite - it means that the concommitant results of conditioning are there for as long as one keeps on with the same attitude)- but to stay in the material world would be a theoretical proposition since there is nothing in the material world to reciprocate with the soul's constitutional position of eternity

“ By god's omnipotency, he has rendered the performance of evil totally inconsequential - its just like the evil one performs in some vague dream - when you wake up the dream can barely be remembered and by the time you are well into the swing of your morning it has completely vacated your mind ”

Inconsequential is not irradicated.

why does is something that has no consequences required to be irradicated?

 

[VitalOne]

Why does god not do something about unjust suffering?

There is NO unjust suffering...how can you judge what is fair and unfair unless you have knowledge of all?

Why does god allow so much confusion about who he is such that there are literally thousands of religions, most of which conflict with eachother?

...if God did care he wouldn't be perfect, free, all-alluring, the origin of existence, the cause of all causes, beyond the senses, absolute bliss itself, unchanging, and always personal

God has no envy, no anger, no bias, etc...

Why doesn't god's plan seem to make any sense?

God really has no plan, rather God indirectly acts as the cause and effect, there are infinite realities where different events happened

Why doesn't god ever heal amputees?

Cause and effect...all that has happening is an image of the past

 

[(Q)]

Children to do not starve, people do not suffer, nor do they rejoice, for this is all just a grand illusion...in reality all that existed, all that exists, and all that will exist is the absolute, reality itself, bliss

Oh yeah sure, until it's happening to you, everything is bliss.

 

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

You mean a scriptural quote or direct perception of god ??(please don't give me another opportunity to drop the analogy about the electron or the president of the united states-lol )

Give the scriptural quote, although it won't amount to much.

How can an opportunity be lost in a linear frame work which bears no impact on eternity?

If it comprises even a moment of infinity, it bears an impact.

BG 5.8-9: A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them.

So wait wait wait wait wait...we're not even doing anything NOW?

There is the term nitya baddha - constantly conditioned (it doesn't mean sanatana - eternal or indefinite - it means that the concommitant results of conditioning are there for as long as one keeps on with the same attitude)- but to stay in the material world would be a theoretical proposition since there is nothing in the material world to reciprocate with the soul's constitutional position of eternity

Yet there is no inevitability of moksha, no?

why does is something that has no consequences required to be irradicated?

For the nature of perfect goodness is to loathe even the smallest evil.

 

[spamandham]

spamandham


What makes you so sure he doesn't?

I judge that he does nothing to prevent it or to stop it. It seems obvious there is unjust suffering. It seems obvious god doesn't swoop down and stop it. You're welcome to present a case if you disagree with the patently obvious.

Probably because you are not god

Whether or not I'm god is irrelevant, but thanks for leaving open the possibility that I am.

And how exactly would that benefit them, since there are many more millions of people with fully intact limbs who are also in a suffering condition?

You can't figure out for yourself how it would benefit amputees to have their limbs back? Arguments from stupidity are rarely compelling.

 

[donaldsterling]

Proof that Jesus is the Antichrist

Medicine Woman. I'm very sorry that the post that was here was like that. I think the true nature of the statements that I posted here were false. I do now believe that Jesus does love us very much. I'm sorry about my comments. I hope don't hold it against me. I was having a real bad day.

Thanx.
Donald E. Sterling

 

[Medicine*Woman]

First off, they said that the entirety of the earth would be under the power of the Antichrist.

*************
M*W: First off, who are "they?"

Jesus is in 90% of the religions of the earth.

*************
M*W: Can you provide evidence for this statement?

The Jewish messianic prophecies the bible the Quran and even the Hindu scriptures quote him saying, "Slander me oh slanderer for your slander washes my robes and your slander sends me to heaven."

*************
M*W: If this citation is found in all three documents, please provide references from the bible, the Quran, and the Hindu scriptures, etc., for this quote.

The original Antichrist prophecy stated that the Antichrist would appear as though he were god, appear as though he were sinless, that he would put a message into the world that would conquer the majority of the religions of the earth, and that he would appear as though he was performing miracles.

*************
M*W: What evidence do you have to back-up these statements? The bible is not considered to be valid proof of anything.

Moses followed a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Elijah was taken up into the sky by a wheel within a wheel and the fake miracle of Peter walking on water was the same. It was one of these alien technologies.

*************
M*W: Can you prove Moses existed? Can you provide archeological and historical evidence for his existence? Can you chronologically date the existence of Moses? Can you provide evidence for alien technologies? Do you really believe this crap?

They say that the Antichrist would cause 3 and ½ years of peace and 3 and ½ years of war. They also say that there would be an unholy union. Jesus ministered for 3 and ½ years and then was seen as a walking spirit image on the earth for 3 and ½ years while he was setting up the churches of the conquering religions.

*************
M*W: Again, who are "they?" Who are the "conquering religions?"

The unholy union is polytheism and monotheism, which is the belief system that three persons are a singular deity.

*************
M*W: Are you aware that polytheism was the ancient religion of Egypt and Mesopotamia? Monotheism appeared in Egyptian sun worship which eventually evolved into Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You reference the idea of the "trinity" without actually saying it. There are no references in the bible regarding the "trinity." The idea of the "trinity" was thought up between 325 AD and 400 AD by the early Roman Catholic church fathers. The Romans being polytheists wanted their sun god (Sun of God) to be polytheistic, ergo the creation of the "trinity."

I just thought you would appreciate this information.

Thank You,
Donald E. Sterling

*************
M*W: Dear Mr. Sterling,

Thank your for providing this bit of information. However, the burden of proof is on you to back-up your information with historical and archeological evidence. There are many didactic and evidential references available online and at bookstores and libraries everywhere. Sciforums offers the most up-to-date information on the subjects you have posted herein. I seem to believe that you posted here for information purposes only. Do you have specific questions on these subjects, or do you have any topics you would like to debate?

Welcome to sciforums.

 

[wsionynw]

LG, how are your elbows feeling now?

http://www.jokeroo.com/funnyvideos/weird_religious_guy.html

 

[spidergoat]

First off, they said that the entirety of the earth would be under the power of the Antichrist. Jesus is in 90% of the religions of the earth. The Jewish messianic prophecies the bible the Quran and even the Hindu scriptures quote him saying, "Slander me oh slanderer for your slander washes my robes and your slander sends me to heaven." The original Antichrist prophecy stated that the Antichrist would appear as though he were god, appear as though he were sinless, that he would put a message into the world that would conquer the majority of the religions of the earth, and that he would appear as though he was performing miracles. Moses followed a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Elijah was taken up into the sky by a wheel within a wheel and the fake miracle of Peter walking on water was the same. It was one of these alien technologies. They say that the Antichrist would cause 3 and ½ years of peace and 3 and ½ years of war. They also say that there would be an unholy union. Jesus ministered for 3 and ½ years and then was seen as a walking spirit image on the earth for 3 and ½ years while he was setting up the churches of the conquering religions. The unholy union is polytheism and monotheism, which is the belief system that three persons are a singular deity.

I just thought you would appreciate this information.

Thank You,
Donald E. Sterling

I say that's all bullshit, and my statement has equal authority. If you really want to sound authentic, write it down on parchment or vellum and bury it in the desert for a thousand years or so.

 

[superluminal]

Prince_James,

With almost 3000 posts here, I'd have thought you would know the players and their stances re theism. Sometimes I feel the need to play devils advocate in order to illuminate a point or irritate someone. Sam and I play off of each other sometimes. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Cris]

Neela,

Hi and welcome to sciforums.

I would request only the believers to answer this question. As any answers from the atheists would be irrelevant.

This implies you only want a biased view, which would be unfortunate. One of the strongest arguments for the non-existence of an omni-benevolent god is the existence of suffering. This is a fundamental paradox that theists have never been able to provide a credible answer

Why is there so much unjust suffering in this world despite God?

If we begin by assuming God exists then the claimed suffering cannot be unjust and can only be an erroneous human perception. An omni-benevolent God is incapable of ever causing real unjust suffering. So if you are suffering then it is your own fault. I.e. if your family is killed by an earthquake then that was God’s will and all will be made good in an afterlife, etc. Your perception of suffering is inappropriate because you should be thanking and trusting God for his infinite wisdom, even though you may not understand it. If you want to blame anyone then it should be Adam and Eve and not God.

If that might seem perverse, then well, that is the nature of religious belief.

If we assume that God does not exist then suffering is simply a result of the unpredictable nature of our environment and the immaturity of human kind. Which is somewhat more credible, wouldn’t you think?

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

“ You mean a scriptural quote or direct perception of god ??(please don't give me another opportunity to drop the analogy about the electron or the president of the united states-lol ) ”

Give the scriptural quote, although it won't amount to much.

(insert analogy about the high school drop out perceiving the elctron and the common system trying to directly perceive th epresident)

“ How can an opportunity be lost in a linear frame work which bears no impact on eternity? ”

If it comprises even a moment of infinity, it bears an impact.

Thats the point - it doesn't occupy infinity - linear time is a special construct to giv e the facility of illusion for the living entity - its a prerequisite for an eternal entity to be able to entertain the notion of temporality

“ BG 5.8-9: A person in the divine consciousness, although engaged in seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating, moving about, sleeping and breathing, always knows within himself that he actually does nothing at all. Because while speaking, evacuating, receiving, or opening or closing his eyes, he always knows that only the material senses are engaged with their objects and that he is aloof from them. ”

So wait wait wait wait wait...we're not even doing anything NOW?

Yes, as far as life in the material world goes - but of course in the state of illusion its not expected that one can perceive that (if they could it wouldn't be illusion)

“ There is the term nitya baddha - constantly conditioned (it doesn't mean sanatana - eternal or indefinite - it means that the concommitant results of conditioning are there for as long as one keeps on with the same attitude)- but to stay in the material world would be a theoretical proposition since there is nothing in the material world to reciprocate with the soul's constitutional position of eternity ”

Yet there is no inevitability of moksha, no?

Its as inevitable as a person taking another breath despite trying to hold it

“ why does is something that has no consequences required to be irradicated? ”

For the nature of perfect goodness is to loathe even the smallest evil.

and relegating the experience of evil to a realm that bears no consequences doesn't fulfill this requirement to have a zero tolerance for evil?
Considering that such an arrangemnet also provides the opportunity for the living entity to possess and express free will it seems to fulfill all needs - as I said before - people do not understand what it properly means to say that god is omnipotent - you cannot determine the extent of gods potencies by an examination of the temporal world, since the entire temporal world and its necessary laws are a small fragment of god's capacity - that is why god, things related to god and the process for coming to understand god are called "transcendental"

 

[lightgigantic]

spamandham

What makes you so sure he doesn't? ”

I judge that he does nothing to prevent it or to stop it. It seems obvious there is unjust suffering. It seems obvious god doesn't swoop down and stop it. You're welcome to present a case if you disagree with the patently obvious.

It seems obvous that people are mostly superficially religious or outright irreligious, which is what life in the material world is specifically addressing

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Probably because you are not god ”

Whether or not I'm god is irrelevant, but thanks for leaving open the possibility that I am.

It is relevant if you want to demand an understanding of god's purpose - and since you are stuck moaning about your problems with the universe it doesn't appear that you are a very potent god

“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
And how exactly would that benefit them, since there are many more millions of people with fully intact limbs who are also in a suffering condition? ”

You can't figure out for yourself how it would benefit amputees to have their limbs back? Arguments from stupidity are rarely compelling.

Is having functional limbs an automatic qualification for blissful life? Is having dysfunctional limbs an automatic qualification for misery?
In case you haven't noticed, happiness and distress visits everyone equally - if you think you can alter that with material facility you are deluded.

 

[VitalOne]

Oh yeah sure, until it's happening to you, everything is bliss.

there is never a time where is no bliss, as all in reality is unlimited bliss, if one experiences suffering it is because of ignorance, bad deeds, bad effect resultant of a previous cause.

 

[Fire]

there is never a time where is no bliss, as all in reality is unlimited bliss, if one experiences suffering it is because of ignorance, bad deeds, bad effect resultant of a previous cause.

Have you always been able to talk shit, or did it take practice?