Why is there so much unjust suffering in this world despite God?

[lightgigantic]

Fire

"The atheist will no doubt argue that a better solution must be available. He could even suggest that God may have created man in such a way that man would avoid evil altogether. This idea can be ressolved by pointing out that this scenario would mean that he would no longer have the capacity to exhibit free will and make choices - ”

Theists should really stop making the free will infringement excuse to the existence of 'evil'.

You are free to make such statements

Is our 'free will' harmed by any additional paramaters that god decided to leave out of this universe at the last minute?

Such as what? Would you suggest that newborns take birth with safeway coupons?

Safe to say that if god left certain things out of the universe, we would be non the wiser.

So you know that god left something out of the universe because its impossible to know if god left something out of the universe?

Would these missing parameters effect our free will? Probably about as much as they would effect it if 'evil' wasn't there.

This comes across as a complete non-sequitor - I am sure you didn't intend it that way - actually the whole intro to this premise of an incomplete universe is kind of strange - maybe you could try and rephrase it in a better way

I find it more believable that there is no 'loving', intelligent creator out there hence why this universe is an unforgivable environment and why only the fittest survive... before eventually dieing in horrible pain of course

And its easier to believe that if god exists he left something out of the creation as evidenced by our inability to determine if he left something out of the creation???

“ It would require that God create robots that act in programmed or predetermined ways . ”

Not to harm our ego, but god or no god... Are we not already robots? I can not do anything that is outside my 'programmed' nature. With free will, there should be no bounds, rather than being slaves to our genes.

To determine the strengths of your argument park your car in a no parking zone and tell the parking inspector this when you are issued with a ticket - in other words without the notion of free will as an absolute reality it becomes impossible to organize society

 

[VitalOne]

There is no evil in the world, no good, no justice, no injustice, all is absolute bliss, reality itself

 

[Prince_James]

Jenyar:

I'll try to ease your perplexity. According to Genesis 1:31 mankind was indeed created "very good" in God's eyes. It might only be an adjective in this sense, not necessarily describing a moral dimension, but it's still an important qualitative assessment: A good God declared us a good creation.

Indeed, Genesis declares such.

Where your reasoning goes wrong, I think, is when you think of good (or evil) as a self-evident, quantitative "thing". You make no real distinction between God and creation, or between what is good for God and good for his creation.

Would not that make impossible the declaration that God is good? Or at least make the concept vacuous? For if goodness is not universal and an attribute both of God, man, nature, animals, et cetera, then it seems we cannot say anything about Divine goodness. Indeed, specifically in regards to man, who is said to be in God's image, we find many problems with a sundering of the concept of goodness.

For God, "good" and "freedom" would simply be the extent of His nature (think of it as a circle), and when He sets us down in a world that depends on it, it becomes important for us to live out that good nature (remain inside the circle). Obviously that means knowing what God considers good or bad, which Adam and Eve did.

Yet Adam and Eve did not. Until they partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, they were ignorant both of good and evil. They were given a declaration to not eat something, but they'd be incapable of deciding whether following it was good or bad.

And that's where freedom comes into play. "Freedom" has no boundaries of its own (by definition), so it relies on imposed boundaries. Our freedom is not good by definition - in some places they are mutually exclusive - it is only good within the boundaries of "good" (within the circle). When we step outside the circle, we abuse our freedom and sever the relationship with God, which can obviously have all kinds of consequences.

Yet this does not address why God could not have endowed us with an innate quality to stay within this "circle", as he does. For you admit that no evil can come from God, yes? That he is incapable of producing evil, even as a circle cannot be a square at the same time and in the same manner, yes? And yet he is free? Free - or more free, in fact? - than you or I? So he cannot obviously say "we won't be free, I cannot take it away from you!"

Similarly, a perfectly good being cannot accept evil, or indeed, allow evil to occur, specifically when said being is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which makes nothing outside of his power to do. God even has the power to "set things right anew" by reversing the effects of any evil action. He could have raised Abel from the dead, for instance.

I thus riddle you with Epicurus':

If God is can and won't - he is malevolent.
If God can't and would - he is incompetant.
If God can and would - why does evil exist?

Obviously I've also simplified it, but it illustrates how evil and incompetence can be consequences of a combination of otherwise "good" things. It's precisely because God is good and not evil that such a boundary even exists to cross, and that the option of evil is open.

How can goodness accept the toleration of evil?

Light Gigantic:

The atheist will no doubt argue that a better solution must be available. He could even suggest that God may have created man in such a way that man would avoid evil altogether. This idea can be ressolved by pointing out that this scenario would mean that he would no longer have the capacity to exhibit free will and make choices - It would require that God create robots that act in programmed or predetermined ways .

Yet it is held that God has perfect free will and perfect goodness - clearly tghen either that conception or the conception of man as "robotic" without evil is flawed.

(1) does not infringe human freedom (ie free will) , or

There possible, see above.

Either that or if goodness is what God wants, then God chooses that he wants everything, and therefore destroys goodness as a concept distinct from "do what thou wilt and wcome what may".

(2) cause God to violate the definitions of his nature (ie , His attributes of absolute holiness, justice, and mercy) in some way.

Impossible, as these are fundamentally incoherent. There is no justification of God's goodness possible in philosophy. It is simply an untenable concept.

 

[(Q)]

There is no evil in the world, no good, no justice, no injustice, all is absolute bliss, reality itself

Sure, tell that to the 17,000 children who die of starvation each day.

 

[Baron Max]

Sure, tell that to the 17,000 children who die of starvation each day.

Should God come down and feed all of them? and if he feeds them, what about all the rest of us? ...shouldn't he feed us, too?

Dying and death and starvation is all a part of the grand scheme that we know as "nature" or "natural". If nothing ever died, can you imagine what the planet would look like today? A bit crowded, huh?

Baron Max

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

“ The atheist will no doubt argue that a better solution must be available. He could even suggest that God may have created man in such a way that man would avoid evil altogether. This idea can be ressolved by pointing out that this scenario would mean that he would no longer have the capacity to exhibit free will and make choices - It would require that God create robots that act in programmed or predetermined ways . ”

Yet it is held that God has perfect free will and perfect goodness - clearly tghen either that conception or the conception of man as "robotic" without evil is flawed.

“ (1) does not infringe human freedom (ie free will) , or ”

There possible, see above.

Either that or if goodness is what God wants, then God chooses that he wants everything, and therefore destroys goodness as a concept distinct from "do what thou wilt and wcome what may".


“ (2) cause God to violate the definitions of his nature (ie , His attributes of absolute holiness, justice, and mercy) in some way. ”

Impossible, as these are fundamentally incoherent. There is no justification of God's goodness possible in philosophy. It is simply an untenable concept.

Not clear onthe pathways you are drawing between god's status and the status of the living entity - please expand - I could reply but I am not confident that I have properly understood the points you are making and the premises you are relying on

 

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

God has a nature in which freedom and goodness are mutually inclusive. That is to say, he can be both perfectly free and perfectly good without contradiction. Thus though he is incapable of doing evil, he is nonetheless not less free than if he could. Humans, on the other hand, are held to have to be able to commit evil in order to be free, but this begs the question: Why? In what way do we differ in morality from God which he is incapable of weaving into our nature? For if we admit of God as a creator of all things, and as a being of perfect goodness, then it is undeniable that God can do as he pleases in regards to the creation of everything, and is indeed constrained by his perfect goodness to only produce and tolerate goodness. For goodness cannot look at evil and not act - lest it is not goodness at all.

 

[(Q)]

Should God come down and feed all of them? and if he feeds them, what about all the rest of us? ...shouldn't he feed us, too?

Isn't that what theists would have us believe based on their ideals of gods?

 

[superluminal]

Given the observed state of human existence as undeniable proof I will postulate the following:

God is perfect. Good and evil are naive concepts of humanity. Since god is perfect, all that you see and experience is unfolding as it should. It just is. How can any of you claim that god want's this or that? Or behaves in thus-and-such a way? The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite. The very fact that there is hunger, suffering, and joy should tell one (knowing that god is perfect) that hunger, suffering and joy are also perfect.

Is not the daily sacrifice and death of millions of cells in your body, as a routine part of living, as much a part of the sublime and perfect mechanism of humanity as our sacrifices and deaths are in the perfect mechanism of the cosmos? The metaphorical universal body of god?

 

[(Q)]

Given the observed state of human existence as undeniable proof I will postulate the following:

God is perfect. Good and evil are naive concepts of humanity. Since god is perfect, all that you see and experience is unfolding as it should. It just is. How can any of you claim that god want's this or that? Or behaves in thus-and-such a way? The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite. The very fact that there is hunger, suffering, and joy should tell one (knowing that god is perfect) that hunger, suffering and joy are also perfect.

Is not the daily sacrifice and death of millions of cells in your body, as a routine part of living, as much a part of the sublime and perfect mechanism of humanity as our sacrifices and deaths are in the perfect mechanism of the cosmos? The metaphorical universal body of god?

Party-pooper.

 

[superluminal]

Party-pooper.

Heathen.

 

[imaplanck.]

The logic of a thiest.

God is omnipresent and will know of your sins - He can't help everybody all of the time though.
God is good and will never put himself before the suffering of his creation - He is sometimes too busy shagging mrs god though.
Good will always win over evil - Shit happens.
God has the power to turn 1 loaf into thousands - He sits and watches thousands die of starvation every week.

 

[superluminal]

The logic of a thiest.

God is omnipresent and and will know of your sins - He can't help everybody all of the timethough.
God is good and will never put himself before the suffering of his creation - He is sometimes too busy shagging mrs god though.
Good will always win over evil - Shit happens.
God has the power to turn 1 loaf into thousands - He sits and watches thousands die every week.

Which, of course, is all perfectly perfect.

 

[VitalOne]

There is no evil in the world, no good, no justice, no injustice, all is absolute bliss, reality itself

Sure, tell that to the 17,000 children who die of starvation each day.

Children to do not starve, people do not suffer, nor do they rejoice, for this is all just a grand illusion...in reality all that existed, all that exists, and all that will exist is the absolute, reality itself, bliss

"When you realize how perfect everything is, you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" - The Buddha

 

[superluminal]

Children to do not starve, people do not suffer, nor do they rejoice, for this is all just a grand illusion...in reality all that existed, all that exists, and all that will exist is the absolute, reality itself, bliss

"When you realize how perfect everything is, you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky" - The Buddha

Exactly.

 

[Taken2Extremes]

Evidence or lack there of that
God is actively working or intervening in the world. If I jump off of a ten
story building is my death in part the failure of gravity to fail to remain
constant? If gravity has a purpose, and let's assume that we are pretty sure it does at the very least serve a purpose whether it intends it or not, is its intent for good or evil? The Bible said that ALL things work together
for our good. Safe to say gravity is beneficial to creation and the
universe? Where is the failure here? Is it in gravities lack of good
intention toward me or in my intentional decision to act in direct
opposition to gravity?

The Bible clearly tells us some aspects of God that we often over simplify
in to our human way of thinking, it's the forest for the trees phenomenon.
The Bible says God is unchanging, never ending, just, perfect, conceptually he is beyond the comprehension of the human mind (lets take this to mean he would have to be abstract or at the least not of concrete structure). We know the Bible says that which is has been manifest of that which is not, actual translation leads to the idea that material existence is derived from non material existence or source. The Bible states that God is with in and with out and that all creation fails "to be" apart from him. We talked about the splitting of the smallest particle and what they found when they opened the chamber….nothing, a form of energy. Consider also that the energy derived from the splitting of an atom is Atomic. Upon its discovery and release it became the most powerful force man ever had at his disposal and it came from an ATOM one of the minutest physical structures known to man. Now let's jump over to the BIG picture. The universe or expanse of
space that we have been able to access some information about up until now.
We know that all of creation is dynamic. It is evolving on every level from
the smallest bacteria that mutates to resist antibiotics to the constant
state of motion of the universe in time and space. Laws of physics tell us
that there is no reaction with out an action. There is no movement with out
a transfer of energy. And we know that nothing new is created things simply
transform (nothing new under the sun) So behind evolution, behind the
constant state of motion behind the passage of time and behind that atomic
blast must be a source of energy , an action that is precipitating a
reaction. I assume (all theory) that it will follow most of the scientific
laws we have defined till now in our evolution (after all God is perfect.)
It will be constant (unchanging) it will be just (it will not harm by
intention but is harmful to those who willfully and directly act in
opposition to it) It will never end or cease to move or act but can be
transferred or transformed. I told you about the Jewish verb conjugation
that is constant continual in an earlier thread months ago. All of creation was actually formed by God
saying and continuing to say so that the manifestation is not in what was
said but what is BEING said. The Bible also tells us that Gods words are his
power. This information paints the picture to me that Gods words as denoted
by the author are equated with the movement of the force or energy. Roughly
like gravity or time are abstract concepts but their forward movement is an
abstract action.

He (term used loosely) will not seek to harm but we are harmed when we
intentionally act in direct opposition to him. There is the definition of
freewill. God can not change he is perfect, we must forego the desire to
jump off the building (test him) because he is perfect and unchanging and
can not be anything else lest all of this complex and meticulous creation
become wrought with chaos and upheaval and perfect order cease to exist.

Love, haha my favorite part of the intertwining of creation. Its
significance as a manifestation of Gods power? It is one of the most
significant manifestations of the power and existence of God I believe
because it is one of the ways the power of God is manifested thru living
creatures. Life itself is his breath and Love is his intent defined. Much
like that atom that perplexes us with its atomic potential; Love as can be
verified by almost any human alive, is a force beyond anything imaginable.
Its power can be felt physically in our bodies and alter everything
including our perceptions. There is a spiritual, non physical aspect that we
can not define or touch but can cause an upwelling in our bodies that makes
us feel as though we will explode. A driving fire that can break our hearts
and crush our spirits. It is atomic proportions from a source that
theoretically has no physical existence. When you look for the mechanism of the universes perpetual motion, when you try to capture the source that "is not" in the atom when you are wrought with a burden and desire that can compel you to move mountains to reach another human being or a grief so strong another persons suffering embeds in you a near physical pain…you are in fact looking directly into the eyes of the “God” you seek.



By the way HI!!! I havent been around here in a while...used to be Taken years ago...couldnt remember my password...age I guess. Nice to see the place still jumping. Hope the answer helped...if it did nothing but get you to rethink the way you were thinking it has done a good thing.

 

[lightgigantic]

imaplanck

The logic of a thiest.

Or is is the logic of the atheist to determine the theist?

God is omnipresent and will know of your sins - He can't help everybody all of the time though.

If by help, you mean help people get further into ignorance, you are correct

God is good and will never put himself before the suffering of his creation - He is sometimes too busy shagging mrs god though.

Just because you are too busy thinking about your genitals to seriously consider the nature of the real world doesn't mean that everyone else is - what to speak of god

Good will always win over evil - Shit happens.

A bad tradesman blames his tools

God has the power to turn 1 loaf into thousands - He sits and watches thousands die of starvation every week.

If he did then you would probably also demand that god rubs the calices off your backside too

 

[superluminal]

God is perfect. Good and evil are naive concepts of humanity. Since god is perfect, all that you see and experience is unfolding as it should. It just is. How can any of you claim that god want's this or that? Or behaves in thus-and-such a way? The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite. The very fact that there is hunger, suffering, and joy should tell one (knowing that god is perfect) that hunger, suffering and joy are also perfect.

Is not the daily sacrifice and death of millions of cells in your body, as a routine part of living, as much a part of the sublime and perfect mechanism of humanity as our sacrifices and deaths are in the perfect mechanism of the cosmos? The metaphorical universal body of god?

 

[Prince_James]

Superluminal:

You abuse and pervert the concept of goodness in order to prop up your nonsensical version of God rooted in obscene mysticism which denies life and goodness.

"In German, Christian and Nihilist rhyme - and indeed they do more than rhyme." - Nietzsche.

 

[S.A.M.]

God is perfect. Good and evil are naive concepts of humanity. Since god is perfect, all that you see and experience is unfolding as it should. It just is. How can any of you claim that god want's this or that? Or behaves in thus-and-such a way? The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite. The very fact that there is hunger, suffering, and joy should tell one (knowing that god is perfect) that hunger, suffering and joy are also perfect.

Is not the daily sacrifice and death of millions of cells in your body, as a routine part of living, as much a part of the sublime and perfect mechanism of humanity as our sacrifices and deaths are in the perfect mechanism of the cosmos? The metaphorical universal body of god?

It's a miracle.

As I read these lines, I realised I already knew them.

Cosmic truth, no doubt.