Why is there so much unjust suffering in this world despite God?

[lightgigantic]

Prince_James

God has a nature in which freedom and goodness are mutually inclusive. That is to say, he can be both perfectly free and perfectly good without contradiction. Thus though he is incapable of doing evil, he is nonetheless not less free than if he could. Humans, on the other hand, are held to have to be able to commit evil in order to be free, but this begs the question: Why? In what way do we differ in morality from God which he is incapable of weaving into our nature?

The ability to make mistakes is indicative of freedom for an entity operating out of a paradigm where they are not supreme - just like in traditional law of england, the king is beyond the laws of the state (because he was considered the head of the state - of course thi s lead to a few issues regarding a human figure representing an absolute authority, which is a whole seperate issue ...). Its not that because the king was beyond the law he was less free - he actually had the highest level of freedom in the country. And it was not like a single other person (not even his wife or relatives) had the same level of freedom (unless of course they disturbed the status quo by usurping the throne)- in other words there is a distinction between the living entity and god that cannot be further reduced (One is the potency and one is the potent).

For if we admit of God as a creator of all things, and as a being of perfect goodness, then it is undeniable that God can do as he pleases in regards to the creation of everything, and is indeed constrained by his perfect goodness to only produce and tolerate goodness. For goodness cannot look at evil and not act - lest it is not goodness at all.

What makes you think that god is not looking at the problem of evil

(excerpt from the original on http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1189773&postcount=17)

They raise the objection that if God does exists, then why hasn't He dealt with the problem of evil in the world. This contention can be ressolved by pointing out that God is dealing with the problem of evil, but in a progressive way. The false premise on the part of the atheist is that God's only choice is to deal with evil all at once in a single act. God, however, is dealing with the problem of evil through His justice system (dharma (establishing laws of action) karma (the results of interacting with those laws - that is doing it the right way and the wrong way) -samsara (repeated birth and death in the material world until you get it right).

If the atheist counters that it shouldn't take such long time for a God (omnipotent that he is) to solve the problem of evil, you could respond by saying: "Ok let's say that at this very moment, God announced that all evil and sin in the world will now cease to exist. Practically every one on the face of the earth would simply vanish into oblivion. Would this solution be agreeable to you?"

 

[superluminal]

Superluminal:

You abuse and pervert the concept of goodness in order to prop up your nonsensical version of God rooted in obscene mysticism which denies life and goodness.

"In German, Christian and Nihilist rhyme - and indeed they do more than rhyme." - Nietzsche.

"And I will cast thee down into a lake of fire"

There is no life or goodness. Everything is interconnected at the quantum level and thus subject to intimate cause and effect. Therefore everything is dependent on everything else. Good, evil, suffering, joy, are all inseperable and one with each other. The cosmos is one entity. Differentiation is an illusion.

 

[Prince_James]

Light Gigantic:

The ability to make mistakes is indicative of freedom for an entity operating out of a paradigm where they are not supreme - just like in traditional law of england, the king is beyond the laws of the state (because he was considered the head of the state - of course thi s lead to a few issues regarding a human figure representing an absolute authority, which is a whole seperate issue ...). Its not that because the king was beyond the law he was less free - he actually had the highest level of freedom in the country. And it was not like a single other person (not even his wife or relatives) had the same level of freedom - in other words there is a distinction between the living entity and god that cannot be further reduced (One is the potency and one is the potent).

If such is the case, then God cannot accept human beings and yet be perfectly good. For to be perfectly good is to hold goodness above all else and not tolerate any evil - yet clearly there is evil in this world. If humans are -ontologically- incapable of not doing evil (which you suggest by them lacking omnipotence) then God cannot accept their existence and be perfectly good.

Moreover, cannot God give us a perfection of goodness if he so chooses? It would not seem to be against any necessary law, nor necessary quality, if God is omnipotent.

This contention can be ressolved by pointing out that God is dealing with the problem of evil, but in a progressive way.

God cannot do something progressive, or he is not omnipotent. Omnipotence does not require time to act - it is infinite power in infinitely small time. To do something progressively implies that one cannot do it all at once, which implies that one is not omnipotent.

If the atheist counters that it shouldn't take such long time for a God (omnipotent that he is) to solve the problem of evil, you could respond by saying: "Ok let's say that at this very moment, God announced that all evil and sin in the world will now cease to exist. Practically every one on the face of the earth would simply vanish into oblivion. Would this solution be agreeable to you?"

Yes. As that is the only way to justify a perfectly good being.

They should not exist to begin with if they have evil.

Superluminal:

There is no life or goodness. Everything is interconnected at the quantum level and thus subject to intimate cause and effect. Therefore everything is dependent on everything else. Good, evil, suffering, joy, are all inseperable and one with each other. The cosmos is one entity. Differentiation is an illusion.

This is fallacious to the extreme. For just as much as everything is interconnected, it is also radically distinct. The infinitely small is monadic, the infinitely large supremely connected. Neither is more real than the other and seperation and unity exist on all levels besides the two extremes, and even then, they are connected because they depend upon one another.

SamCDKey:

Do not tell me you honestly believe in this mystical garbage?

 

[S.A.M.]

SamCDKey:

Do not tell me you honestly believe in this mystical garbage?

The eerie familiarity of those PROFOUND words of wisdom has convinced me they MUST be a universal truth.

 

[superluminal]

The eerie familiarity of those PROFOUND words of wisdom has convinced me they MUST be a universal truth.

Some people can't seem to see truth even when it walks right up and shakes their hand. Shame really. If they would only open their minds and spirits the the greater reality surrounding them - wow. It's like they're swimming in an ocean and don't know it.

 

[Taken2Extremes]

There is one major problem with trying to follow this conversation as it exists. God is not a man...even the Bible clearly says he is not a man nor is he comprehensible to the mind of man so arguing terms of what he is or isnt doing based on human actions or thinking is kinda like fighting a windmill isnt it? God doesnt feed anyone..Jesus fed some people. People are hurt only when HUMANS act in direct opposition to what we are told is a consistant, perfect, just, unchanging "power". If God is perfect and just and judges not and is unchanging then it is human kind who must be the problem. Doesnt matter if your a good person or a bad person..you jump off a building your gonna hit the ground at the same time with the same deadly impact. So when humans suffer and the world is going to hell in a hand basket...perhaps instead of looking to some imaginary little man with a long beard with some smoke and mirrors to rescue us and pronounce judgement...maybe we should do what the great wise men of old tried to 'splain to us...and stop working in direct oposition to God.

 

[S.A.M.]

Some people can't seem to see truth even when it walks right up and shakes their hand. Shame really. If they would only open their minds and spirits the the greater reality surrounding them - wow. It's like they're swimming in an ocean and don't know it.

O wise one!! Will you be my guru?

 

[superluminal]

There is one major problem with trying to follow this conversation as it exists. God is not a man...even the Bible clearly says he is not a man nor is he comprehensible to the mind of man so arguing terms of what he is or isnt doing based on human actions or thinking is kinda like fighting a windmill isnt it? God doesnt feed anyone..Jesus fed some people. People are hurt only when HUMANS act in direct opposition to what we are told is a consistant, perfect, just, unchanging "power". If God is perfect and just and judges not and is unchanging then it is human kind who must be the problem. Doesnt matter if your a good person or a bad person..you jump off a building your gonna hit the ground at the same time with the same deadly impact. So when humans suffer and the world is going to hell in a hand basket...perhaps instead of looking to some imaginary little man with a long beard with some smoke and mirrors to rescue us and pronounce judgement...maybe we should do what the great wise men of old tried to 'splain to us...and stop working in direct oposition to God.

I agree.

The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite

You can push a boulder uphill for eternity or you can notice the D7A bulldozer staring you in the face, just waiting for you to notice it.

 

[superluminal]

O wise one!! Will you be my guru?

Sure. Why not?

 

[Prince_James]

SamCDKey:

Upon what foundation could you ever support this notion? On so flimsy a notion that you "feel" it?

I thought better of you then to fall victim for this sort of nonsense.

Let me rip it apart:

"God is perfect."

A premise with no foundation. God's perfection in other traits might be proven through logic and reasoning (which lead us to a non-conscious God) but his morality is neithe perfect nor existent. The Epicurean paradox demonstrates that God's qualities and the world are incompatible.

"Good and evil are naive concepts of humanity. "

Thus is all life and happiness and joy destroyed. Welcome to the Hell of Mysticism.

"Since god is perfect, all that you see and experience is unfolding as it should."

Based upon a foundationless conclusion.

"How can any of you claim that god want's this or that? Or behaves in thus-and-such a way?"

Through reasoning based on what it is to be "good" and "omnipotent".

"The entity we are referring to is so far beyond human comprehension as to be infinite."

Infinity implies necessity and thus can be argued from pure reason alone.

"The very fact that there is hunger, suffering, and joy should tell one (knowing that god is perfect) that hunger, suffering and joy are also perfect."

Aka: That God is evil and that life is terrible and all other Nihilistic absurdity.

Truly: This form of Nihilistic Theism reduces the problem of good v. evil simply by saying evil is good.

"Is not the daily sacrifice and death of millions of cells in your body, as a routine part of living, as much a part of the sublime and perfect mechanism of humanity as our sacrifices and deaths are in the perfect mechanism of the cosmos? The metaphorical universal body of god?"

NONE of this need be part of God's plan. Not a bit of it. It God is an omnipotent, conscious creator, then God could have set the world up anyway. Nothing is necessary for this God. He is not compelled to create the world as it is. Thus he is morally to blame for all the horrors of this existence.

 

[imaplanck.]

imaplanck


Or is is the logic of the atheist to determine the theist?

Both.

If by help, you mean help people get further into ignorance, you are correct

Yes the perception of god indeed does.

Just because you are too busy thinking about your genitals to seriously consider the nature of the real world doesn't mean that everyone else is - what to speak of god

O contrer, I contemplate (deeply) the real world and the reality of the mechanics of the cosmoss and all within, thats why I dont believe in a god!

A bad tradesman blames his tools

Or a niavete blames the devil.

If he did then you would probably also demand that god rubs the calices off your backside too

Only if you eat the remnants with sour cream and strawberries.

 

[S.A.M.]

NONE of this need be part of God's plan. Not a bit of it. It God is an omnipotent, conscious creator, then God could have set the world up anyway. Nothing is necessary for this God. He is not compelled to create the world as it is. Thus he is morally to blame for all the horrors of this existence.

Prince_James:

The ways of wisdom are steep and difficult.

Evil is a moral construct. Why is man evil? Or God? Do you believe that animals can be evil? Or insects? Do they not kill, maim. torture?

Morality is a subjective construct.

We are naught but leaves fluttering in the breeze, fooling ourselves into believing we have choices and direction.
Heed the words of the wise guru.

 

[lightgigantic]

Prince james

“ The ability to make mistakes is indicative of freedom for an entity operating out of a paradigm where they are not supreme - just like in traditional law of england, the king is beyond the laws of the state (because he was considered the head of the state - of course thi s lead to a few issues regarding a human figure representing an absolute authority, which is a whole seperate issue ...). Its not that because the king was beyond the law he was less free - he actually had the highest level of freedom in the country. And it was not like a single other person (not even his wife or relatives) had the same level of freedom - in other words there is a distinction between the living entity and god that cannot be further reduced (One is the potency and one is the potent). ”

If such is the case, then God cannot accept human beings and yet be perfectly good. For to be perfectly good is to hold goodness above all else and not tolerate any evil - yet clearly there is evil in this world.

therefore such acts of non-goodness are relegated to the material world - just like criminal acts in a state are relegated to a prison (with the view of atonement etc)

If humans are -ontologically- incapable of not doing evil (which you suggest by them lacking omnipotence) then God cannot accept their existence and be perfectly good.

thats why they are not accepted in the spiritual realm for as long as they exhibit the symptoms of ignorance - ignorance is not the eternal companion of the living entity

Moreover, cannot God give us a perfection of goodness if he so chooses? It would not seem to be against any necessary law, nor necessary quality, if God is omnipotent.

of course he can - he is independent and can do whatever he wants - just like a king can open the jails and let all the prisoners out of death row (which they sometimes do on special days or even sometimes when they are intoxicated with delight) - but such things are of course the exception rather than the rule - generally anyone who goes to jail is expected to go through tthe process of reform as opposed to collecting the causeless mercy of the king.

“ This contention can be ressolved by pointing out that God is dealing with the problem of evil, but in a progressive way. ”

God cannot do something progressive, or he is not omnipotent. Omnipotence does not require time to act - it is infinite power in infinitely small time.

Given that the soul of the living entity is eternal and that the notion of time is a special construction for the material world it seems that god fits the bill

To do something progressively implies that one cannot do it all at once, which implies that one is not omnipotent.

linear time is a construct of the conditioned world, just like you can have a dream where you exist for 100 years in a 2 hour nap

“ If the atheist counters that it shouldn't take such long time for a God (omnipotent that he is) to solve the problem of evil, you could respond by saying: "Ok let's say that at this very moment, God announced that all evil and sin in the world will now cease to exist. Practically every one on the face of the earth would simply vanish into oblivion. Would this solution be agreeable to you?" ”

Yes. As that is the only way to justify a perfectly good being.

They should not exist to begin with if they have evil.

Given that the activities of evil are exhibited in linear time (which bears no parrallel to t he eternity of the soul) in temporary bodies composed of dull matter (which also bears no parallel to the eternal form of the soul that does not diminish) it appears that the activities of evil exist only on the most insubstantial of worlds - but despite this by experiencing this phantasmagorial existence th el iving entity can get re-instated in their eternal position - many times people say that god is omnipotent but they don't actually understand the extent of the definition (BTW - the only evil from god's perspective is that teh living entity is taking pleasure in the medium of ignorance, due to a desire to be seperate from him - this is what he is addressing by granting us this existence of action and reaction in the material world)

 

[superluminal]

Prince_James:

The ways of wisdom are steep and difficult.

Evil is a moral construct. Why is man evil? Or God? Do you believe that animals can be evil? Or insects? Do they not kill, maim. torture?

Morality is a subjective construct.

We are naught but leaves fluttering in the breeze, fooling ourselves into believing we have choices and direction.
Heed the words of the wise guru.

You learn quickly my child. All of our actions and decisions are to be found in the most minute details of particle motion and in the grandest expanses of space and time. Most fight this, but are nonetheless destined to become one with it.

 

[Taken2Extremes]

:bugeye: Sheesh...Ive met a lot of folks in my time who missed the forest for the trees, especially on this forum. But Ive never seen anyone who totally overshot the forest untill now. Real it back in dudes(misspelling intended). If God had a head even it would be spinning....and he would be mumbling something about...it's just a universe, pretty simple..and I thought the chaos would have been too overwhelming.

 

[superluminal]

:bugeye: Sheesh...Ive met a lot of folks in my time who missed the forest for the trees, especially on this forum. But Ive never seen anyone who totally overshot the forest untill now. Real it back in dudes(misspelling intended). If God had a head even it would be spinning....and he would be mumbling something about...it's just a universe, pretty simple..and I thought the chaos would have been too overwhelming.

So, are you arguing against the concept of god as the unifying principle of the cosmos? Or are you just a heathen?

 

[S.A.M.]

You learn quickly my child. All of our actions and decisions are to be found in the most minute details of particle motion and in the grandest expanses of space and time. Most fight this, but are nonetheless destined to become one with it.

I hear and obey, Guru.

Right now my particles are in motion towards the space of my bed since it is time to sleep. I am not going to fight it.
Nitey nite.:m:

 

[Taken2Extremes]

No offense but I wasnt aware insects were so brutal...I thought they were just like eating one another to survive. ROFLMAO Im telling you...we gotta head back to shore before we have gone to far!!!!
Evil is a moral construct? OK Im gonna let it go...Im just going to turn and duck back out of the thread quietly.

 

[S.A.M.]

No offense but I wasnt aware insects were so brutal...I thought they were just like eating one another to survive. ROFLMAO Im telling you...we gotta head back to shore before we have gone to far!!!!
Evil is a moral construct? OK Im gonna let it go...Im just going to turn and duck back out of the thread quietly.

Just came back to say that you seem to be singularly unaware of the horrors inflicted by the insect kingdom.

To paraphrase William Shakespeare, "The evil that insects do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their exoskeletons."

 

[Taken2Extremes]

So, are you arguing against the concept of god as the unifying principle of the cosmos? Or are you just a heathen?

I failed to use the quote thingy and you posted before I did. It makes the thread so scroll intensive. Type slow honey Im trying to keep up.