Why is there so little intertheist discussion?

[Adstar]

No, it certainly isn't a revelation. It is, rather, quite obvious that many religious people believe similar sorts of things. I just think it's important to highlight this fact in an environment where it hardly ever seems to be acknowledged.

So you need to ask a question to get someone to confirm the bleating obvious.

Let's assume that you're right; that "Theists who do not believe in salvation through the atonement of the Messiah Jesus" specifically, aren't going to be saved. That would mean, as I've already pointed out, that there are indeed theists in here who are not saved but are still trying to save other people anyway, and are therefore effectively leading them down a path that could instead result in eternal destruction.

What's not absurd about it?

Yes, Of course i believe that. And again there is nothing absurd about it.

Christians who believe that Muslims aren't saved. Muslims who believe that Christians aren't saved. In fact many adherents of both of these religions believe that pretty much everyone else, no matter what their particular faith, is not going to be saved.

That kind of conflict.

There is no conflict in that paragraph. There is disagreement. There are beliefs. There does not need to be conflict. I can believe another person is heading for eternal torment in the lake of fire and not have any hate or ill feelings for them. On the country i can feel sick with sadness for them. Sometimes when i have heard atheists blaspheme the Holy Spirit on this forum i just don't want to know them anymore. i will not even read their posts anymore. It's like looking at a human torch, someone who has just poured petrol over himself or herself and set themselves on fire.

It certainly does become a joke when theists with conflicting doctrines regarding salvation are all proselytizing with the same degree of conviction.

I don't get where you’re coming from. What’s funny about it?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

What do you all think - how many Sciforums theists are reading this thread?

How many sciforum theists are there? Maybe 4 or 5 regulars.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[786]

One reason I don't bring a new 'inter-theist' topic is because atheists always troll it, and the direction of the discussion moves away.

Secondly most of our differences are minor. The major ones are what matter to me, and those are usually already exhausted. Or would you prefer that we keep repeating them. That's like making a 'god exist or not exist' every week- I'm not interested

 

[wynn]

Why? Will it make pointless speculation more relevant?

You call the materials at that website "pointless speculation"??

 

[Adstar]

Upon further consideration, it would seem to me that you should be engaged in at least an equal effort to block the attempts of other theists to 'save' an atheist in cases where you believe the theist in question is possibly going to do more damage than good.

Consider the following scenario:

A person is downing in an alligator infested lake. An onlooker grabs a thin, dry, brittle stick and extends it toward the flailing 'drownee', instructing them to take hold of it so they can be pulled back to shore. As an onlooker yourself, you know that the stick is going to break, that the rescue attempt will fail, and that the person will certainly perish, in one way or another. But you neglect to speak up anyway, since at least someone is trying to do something. Yet the whole time, you've been holding one of these:

Well i have injected some objections into discussions about other theist beliefs. But the best way to go is to give your thoughts, to be a person who promotes something, not a person who is arguing against something. It is always better to be positive and talk for something rather then spend too much energy and time speaking in the negative.

That’s why atheists are always in the minority in this world. They can only spend their effort arguing against something. They are always in the negative.

In the end the drowning seeker (if he realises he is drowning that is) will grab the stick that he agrees most with. In the end He will be saved or lost by what he deemed to be the best path.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Many Christians seem more critical of other Christians than they are of atheists. We're all either not holy enough, or we're the wrong kind of holy...

That’s logical if you spend time thinking about it.

Who would cause a theist more offence?

Someone who did not believe that God existed, or someone who was spreading lies about God?

Of course if one has a love for the will of God one would be more emotionally affected by a person telling lies about the will of God then another person simply rejecting the will of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Rav]

Yes, Of course i believe that. And again there is nothing absurd about it.

So what would you call a theist destined for eternal destruction who tries to 'save' an atheist by leading them down the exact same path? A very naughty boy?

There is no conflict in that paragraph. There is disagreement.

It's such a bore when you have to quote a dictionary in order to defend the validity of the use of a particular word.

con·flict

verb (used without object)
1. to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash: The account of one eyewitness conflicted with that of the other. My class conflicts with my going to the concert.

I don't get where you’re coming from. What’s funny about it?

I guess you're just too serious about it all to see the humour. But I do, and so do many others.

 

[wynn]

I can believe another person is heading for eternal torment in the lake of fire and not have any hate or ill feelings for them. On the country i can feel sick with sadness for them.

In the end the drowning seeker (if he realises he is drowning that is) will grab the stick that he agrees most with. In the end He will be saved or lost by what he deemed to be the best path.

And you're allright with believing in a god who condemns many souls to eternal damnation?
Why are you allright with that?

I don't get where you’re coming from. What’s funny about it?

It's not funny. By calling something "a joke" one can also mean that it is ridiculous, absurd.
"You're not a capable engineer, you're a joke."

 

[Adstar]

So what would you call a theist destined for eternal destruction who tries to 'save' an atheist by leading them down the exact same path? A very naughty boy?

Deceived, deceiver or maybe an anti-christ.

It's such a bore when you have to quote a dictionary in order to defend the validity of the use of a particular word.

con·flict

verb (used without object)
1. to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash: The account of one eyewitness conflicted with that of the other. My class conflicts with my going to the concert.

I could not care less what the dictionary says. Conflict always includes emotion, heated emotion. Maybe the one producing the dictionary definition simply assumes that all disagreement includes conflict. I don't agree with them.

I guess you're just too serious about it all to see the humour. But I do, and so do many others.

Well take a step back from yourself and try to contemplate a bit and ask yourself "should i find this funny? Is it morally right to laugh at such things?"



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

And you're allright with believing in a god who condemns many souls to eternal damnation?
Why are you allright with that?

I trust in God that there is a good and vital reason from the eternal condemnation of those who reject the Love of the truth.

In the end God is God and what He says goes. If it where me i would put them in a state of suspended animation forever. But i am a man, not God, i do not have total situational awareness and all wisdom to make any call regarding the eternal state of His creations.

I have come to know the love of God, I trust in His will because of the wisdom of His message. So while some things may be beyond my understanding i have confidence in my Faith/Trust in God.

It's not funny. By calling something "a joke" one can also mean that it is ridiculous, absurd.
"You're not a capable engineer, you're a joke."

Well if the person wants to express that thought then it is quite a simple matter of using clear English to make their mockery known. Instead of saying the situation is a joke they can state they think theists are a Joke. Come on guys if you take joy in denigrating others then at lest make it clear so i don't have to waste my time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Rav]

That’s why atheists are always in the minority in this world. They can only spend their effort arguing against something. They are always in the negative.

Many atheists (myself included) don't consider their atheism to be a very significant defining characteristic. In other words, I'm not an atheist when I hang out with my friends. I'm not an atheist when I go to the movies. I'm not an atheist when I play my guitar, or drive my car, or watch my favourite TV show, or when I do any number of other things that I do in my day to day life. I'm only really an atheist when I am confronted by theism, and even then it really only manifests if I choose to engage it. The rest of the time I am simply a person, and as such I am for many things.

In the end the drowning seeker (if he realises he is drowning that is) will grab the stick that he agrees most with. In the end He will be saved or lost by what he deemed to be the best path.

Fair enough. The truth is that this exchange really isn't about you. It's about all the theists on this board collectively, most of whom seem to hold beliefs that are in direct conflict with yours, in one way or another.

 

[Rav]

Maybe the one producing the dictionary definition simply assumes that all disagreement includes conflict.

The one producing the dictionary (me) is simply saying that in the context in which the word was used, it meant "to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash".

Well take a step back from yourself and try to contemplate a bit and ask yourself "should i find this funny? Is it morally right to laugh at such things?"

It certainly does become a joke when theists with conflicting doctrines regarding salvation are all proselytizing with the same degree of conviction.

 

[Rav]

Instead of saying the situation is a joke

For the record, I did indeed mean that the situation is a joke.

 

[wynn]

Well take a step back from yourself and try to contemplate a bit and ask yourself "should i find this funny? Is it morally right to laugh at such things?"

By saying:

It certainly does become a joke when theists with conflicting doctrines regarding salvation are all proselytizing with the same degree of conviction.

Rav was pointing out the absurdity that emerges when theists with conflicting doctrines regarding salvation are all proselytizing with the same degree of conviction.

It is absurd to have a number of people staunchly claim
"I know The Truth!"
and then each of them has a vastly different idea of what that truth is.

 

[hardalee]

Maybe there is more that one Truth. Maybe there are many paths to that Truth. Maybe there are many Truths.

Say I’m lost in the woods ( I am). It is dark. I see one path I think will take me home and start out on it.

But then the sun comes up and I see many other ways. Which is the best? Are some shorter or longer?
Are some harder than others? Do I just pick one to get home without considering their merits or each?

One may be longer but flat and easier, another shorter but hard by virtue of crossing streams and going up and down hills. Some might even go by a black berry patch, and I might pick a few, that’s worth some extra effort.

Each of us must find their own way, hopefully with out causing too much damage to ourselves or others along the way.

Not trying to be poetic here, but that the way I feel most of the time.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I could not care less what the dictionary says.

Your problem.

Conflict always includes emotion, heated emotion.

Wrong.

I don't agree with them.

Again: your problem.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

It's not subjective.

It is simply because it is a "why should I" question.

It is a reality that anyone living in the modern West is likely to experience.

It begins in one's neighborhood, when a child first realizes there are people of different races and persuasions in the world - and that one has to deal with them on a daily basis.

Multiculturalism and religious pluralism are formally addressed and taught in schools - but no real solution to the inter-religious conflicts is offered.

A solution is always implied but never explicitly stated unfortunately. The solution is based on values and self-honesty. If you value truth over how you feel then religion in its present form is not for you. If you value how you feel more than truth then find a religion that makes you feel the best. The conflicts are removed due to self-honesty, knowing that your beliefs are for your own psychological satiation.

Moreover, in many Western countries, the laws on multiculturalism and religious pluralism protect the religious, but not the non-religious.

A Christian can start preaching to me, and if I oppose, I get to be the bad one, because by law I am the one being intolerant of his religion.
By law, the religious have to exhibit some measure of tolerance for people of other religions, but can be as intolerant of the non-religious as much as they like!

In my country freedom of religion inherently means freedom from religion and is enforced by law. If your country is not the same in this regard then you may want to begin lobbying with your government.

People have a natural striving for some kind of "higher living" (which can be called "spirituality," "religion," or "self-culture").

You should ask those people what they objectively mean. After enough answers (and a lot of them will be wiggling around in their own emotion), you will note that they are looking for are behavors that will magically keep them in a persistent state of being high. They want reality to reward them somehow for their behavior.

But when they try to act on this, they are met with numerous organizations, institutions and individuals who claim to be authorities on this "higher living" and who claim to be able to show others the way.
These numerous organizations, institutions and individuals tend to claim quite different things.
The confusion objectively exists.

The notable part is that nobody from any of those organizations can achieve "higher living", simply because the notion of reality rewarding your behavior with feelings of bliss is simply not supported by reality.

 

[Adstar]

For the record, I did indeed mean that the situation is a joke.

Yes thats the message i got from you. And thats why i answered it a certain way. But signal injected his own interpretation into it to muddy the waters.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

By saying:
Rav was pointing out the absurdity that emerges when theists with conflicting doctrines regarding salvation are all proselytizing with the same degree of conviction.

It is absurd to have a number of people staunchly claim
"I know The Truth!"
and then each of them has a vastly different idea of what that truth is.

I still don't get why people think it is absurd or a joke or funny??

I find it weird people get a laugh out of the situation. It's not funny, it's serious.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Maybe there is more that one Truth. Maybe there are many paths to that Truth. Maybe there are many Truths.

Say I’m lost in the woods ( I am). It is dark. I see one path I think will take me home and start out on it.

But then the sun comes up and I see many other ways. Which is the best? Are some shorter or longer?
Are some harder than others? Do I just pick one to get home without considering their merits or each?

One may be longer but flat and easier, another shorter but hard by virtue of crossing streams and going up and down hills. Some might even go by a black berry patch, and I might pick a few, that’s worth some extra effort.

Each of us must find their own way, hopefully with out causing too much damage to ourselves or others along the way.

Not trying to be poetic here, but that the way I feel most of the time.

I disagree when it comes to eternity with God. Only one way leads to that. All the other ways lead to bear trap pits with sharpened spike bottoms.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days