NDS
“ Originally Posted by lightgigantic
You can work at whatever job you want 24/7 but if it doesn’t rain or the sun doesn’t shine I can absolutely guarantee that sooner or later you won’t be eating bread ”
Oh, so God's the one who sends the sun and rain.
sure
Who sends the famines?
Who sends the earthquakes?
Who sends the floods caused by that very rain?
Who sends the tsunamis?
Tornadoes?
Hurricanes?
God of course.
But just to interject, given this piece of information about the soul ….
BG 2.20 For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
…. what do you think the happiness and distress on experiences in relation to one’s body is all about?
All of the above causes suffering, death, and starvation on a massive scale.
Given that the suffering is not absolute (meaning that it’s not like a person who dies, either in the bathtub or in a hurricane, is wiped out) what idea or purpose do you suppose suffering instigates?
Even in terms of everyday life, for what purposes do people in authority make others suffer (assuming that they are not just inherently malicious)?
Why does God send these things and/or allow them to occur if he, as you claim, is out for us and is always providing us with necessities?
The ultimate reality is that we have no capacity to provide our necessities – we are always in a state of dependence on god … either in our liberated or conditioned states. I mean , if god does not deliver the necessities for maintaining the body (like water and sunshine for example), where do you propose to go and get them?
Sounds to me like he takes necessities (and lives) away with natural disasters, not provides them.
There is an understanding that nature works in accordance with god’s desires. In other words it is but one of his subservient potencies. Generally we find this very difficult to understand since we have absolutely zero subservient potencies (for instance no one can guarantee that they will live to take their next breadth)
Could God have created a world with no natural disasters or famines? Yes. So why didn't he?
He did
It’s called the spiritual world.
He also manifests the material world, which offers the living entity the unique opportunity to think that they are in the possession of some sort of potency or other.
No prizes for guessing which environment we chose to socialize around ….
“ Actually human energy is more about making things difficult – why else do people work such ridiculous hours just to secure a little food and shelter? ”
Actually, human energy has brought us from a starving, hunting, dictatorship, communist, socialist based people to more of a free market, capitalist people where our standard of living as a whole is BETTER THAN EVER TODAY.
Think about all the war, suffering, starvation, and slavery of the past. Now think of the technology, medicine, immense food surplus, and standard of living today.
Previously you only lived with the dire threat of war if it was in your vicinity (unlike say the threats posed by nuclear warfare). As for suffering, I’m not sure how those who aren’t in the 10% of the world’s population utilizing 90% of the world’s resources are benefitted. And starvation, well, it doesn’t take too much imagination what a slight ripple in our highly centralized habits of production would cause (like say, the price of oil escalating in it’s said fashion for the next ten years) …. actually come to think of it, now might be a good time to try and slot in with the lifestyles of those who aren’t using 90% of the world’s resources.
Anyway my point is that material life generally endears one with a sense of “BETTER THAN EVER TODAY” but the fact is that it often falls short (or makes for unnecessary complications) in meeting the bare necessities of life.
I mean, working in some office from 9-5, 90 minutes of traffic on each side, stopping off somewhere to buy some frozen beans and grain that has been in storage for the past ten years, catching an elevator to the tenth floor and riding a bicycle with no wheels within the apartment just to stay healthy etc etc
:shrug:
What has brought about this positive change? HUMAN ENERGY.
More commonly known in the Vedas as the raja guna or the mode of passion
BG 18.38 That happiness which is derived from contact of the senses with their objects and which appears like nectar at first but poison at the end is said to be of the nature of passion.
BG 14.6 The result of pious action is pure and is said to be in the mode of goodness. But action done in the mode of passion results in misery, and action performed in the mode of ignorance results in foolishness.
BG 14.7 The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this the embodied living entity is bound to material fruitive actions.
SB 3.6.28 The demigods, qualified by the superexcellent quality of the mode of goodness, are situated in the heavenly planets, whereas the human beings, because of their nature in the mode of passion, live on the earth in company with their subordinates.
Sure there is war today, but religon is the cause of any war today (yes, even Iraq indirectly. The Muslims want to destroy us and Israel).
Did they decide that before or after they underwent at least 50 years of puppet regimes followed by an invasion?
(come to think of it, I find it difficult to recall a third world country that the USA literally hasn’t had strapped over a barrel in the bast 50 years)
Actually the cause of war is good old raja guna (mode of passion) - unlimited material desire
“ at the very least, not even an extremely selfish person can be happy unless they have friends so they can gloat) ”
True, but I don't have to serve my friends, nor they me. And that's fine.
So I take it laying down one’s life is not even on the horizon?
Also, Jessie made a good point on the last page. We have to first define love before we can debate about it.
So, LG, what is your definition of love?
Here’s a comprehensive excerpt from a commentary on the Bhaktirasamrta Sindhu
Every living entity, beginning from Brahma, the first-born living being within the material world, down to the insignificant ant, desires to relish some sort of taste derived from sense perceptions. These sensual pleasures are technically called rasas. Such rasas are of different varieties. In the revealed scriptures the following twelve varieties of rasas are enumerated: (1) raudra (anger), (2) adbhuta (wonder), (3) çåìgära (conjugal love), (4) hasya (comedy), (5) vira (chivalry), (6) daya (mercy), (7) dasya (servitorship), (8) sakhya (fraternity), (9) bhayanaka (horror), (10) bibhatsa (shock), (11) santa (neutrality), (12) vatsalya (parenthood).
The sum total of all these rasas is called affection or love. Primarily, such signs of love are manifested in adoration, service, friendship, paternal affection, and conjugal love. And when these five are absent, love is present indirectly in anger, wonder, comedy, chivalry, fear, shock and so on. For example, when a man is in love with a woman, the rasa is called conjugal love. But when such love affairs are disturbed there may be wonder, anger, shock, or even horror. Sometimes love affairs between two persons culminate in ghastly murder scenes. Such rasas are displayed between man and man and between animal and animal. There is no possibility of an exchange or rasa between a man and an animal or between a man and any other species of living beings within the material world. The rasas are exchanged between members of the same species. But as far as the spirit souls are concerned, they are one qualitatively with the Supreme Lord. Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The spiritual exchange or rasa is fully exhibited in spiritual existence between living beings and the Supreme Lord.
Here's mine off the top of my head:
Love - A strong attraction and appeal to someone or something in which the person who loves will sometimes make certain sacrifices for that person/thing
Jesus defined it well for me:
John 15:13
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
NKJV
So maybe we can quantify or measure love by the level of sacrifice one is willing to make for someone. Fair enough, LG?
So why should I make a sacrifice to a God who never talks me, who never gives me orders, and who seems non-existent? I guess that's my question.
Sometimes there is an idea, kind of similar to neo-platoism, that everything we experience in the material world has its original cause in the spiritual world. Kind of like a pond may reflect a fruit tree quite perfectly (if the lighting is right and the water is dead still), but nonetheless one cannot actually eat the fruit from a reflection. In the same way, the things that attract us in the material world, have their eternal counterparts in the spiritual world, and that counterpart does not house the inherent inebrieties that material life offers. Just like the surface of a pond frequently ripples and the reflection wavers, similarly material experiences of trying to render service to someone in this world or even being the recipient of service is wrought with difficulties – that is the reason why no one is capable of fully dedicating themselves to anyone and why no one is qualified to receive such dedication from anyone (yet we still have the habit of getting upset because people don’t “co-operate” with us or whatever).
So this is where god comes in.
What’s on offer is the opportunity to (re)enter a relationship with god which affords the opportunity to render such service of dedication . If for whatever reason we don’t take that offer, we simply remain in the material world, seeking out shadows of it, until we get sick of it.
So in short
BG 3.9 Work done as a sacrifice for Visnu has to be performed; otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage.
If you don’t perform sacrifice in love for god, you will perform sacrifice in love for something else, and the result of that is simply difficulty.
Yes, I understand the THEORY of God. He is some supernatural, spiritual being living in the "heavenly realm" which created the universe, created us, and threw us onto some planet called earth and has left us to fend for ourselves.
Now tell me, Why should I love this God? The ONLY reason you have given me so far is "because he gives us necessities." This is a horrible reason to love someone. "Wow, thanks for giving me what I need to survive. Awesome, I really love you."
Basically we came to this world to be socialized around principles of independence of god. The (apparent) absence of god in this world is simply god keeping up his half of the bargain until such time as we want to change.
What if a parent just gave their children the necessities to survive, but never talked to them or directed them on their life journey. Would those kids love their parents. NOPE. Therefore "providing necessities" is not a valid reason to genuinely love someone. You're gonna have to do better than that.
What if the children ran away and went insane and where convinced that there is no such thing as parents and started adopting self destructive habits?
How would you propose that they deal with that situation?
So I'm still waiting on a valid reason to love God. Hell, you've apparently "served God" for years, right? This service has probably led to love. So now that you've developed this love for God, please, tell me WHY you love God after serving him all these years. If you can answer that, then you'd really be helping me.
Sometimes it is explained that the key ingredient for love to god is humility.
There are all sorts of ways you can approach the notion of god – like philosophy (jnana) or good works (punya) or even sub-aspects of theistic discipline like sensual pleasure, learning, wealth, followers, etc that one can even extend to the next life (eg liberation, residence in celestial universes etc). But actually as one matures in spiritual life, they come to see that the love god has offered one is constant. It is not like there is something one can “do” to make god love one “more”. Rather, one is eternally valuable to god, along with every other living entity in the universe (from the ant to the elephant).
It’s kind of like suppose you were a poor university student, coming from a poor family, studying medicine, and you really struggled to pay the bills. Finally you manage to get the degree and live comfortably. But somehow later you find out that your parents paid for 50 % of your bills while you were studying without your knowledge, making severe sacrifices. Ordinarily this would install in one a deep sense of duty to one’s parents born out of love.
So it’s kind of like that as one matures in spiritual life.
The doubt now isn’t whether god exists or fulfills his promises, but the doubt is now whether one is capable of ever repaying the debt
HOW DOES SERVICE LEAD TO LOVE?
There is the saying “action speaks louder than words”.
In regards to the word “love”, that action is service.
From the time place and circumstance we determine the intention of the service. For instance if you brought someone a glass of water they might ordinarily thank you and forget about it. But if you bring them a glass of water in the desert, sacrificing your own personal rations, they might very easily never forget you the rest of their life.
Seriously, I am not sure why many people are having difficulty with this subject. This general principle holds up in even ordinary dealings of love. A young couple who are in love are abuzz with ideas on how they can serve each other. Its easily observable.
