Why do you love God?

[Myles]

LG. This response is to your previous post re love, reciprocation and so on.

Who mentioned reciprocation ? I love Nature but I am not foolish enough to expect it to love me back.

Before attempting to support your argument with god and his putative attributes, it might be a good idea to establish his existence first.

One does not have to define love to understand it. I love my family and do so without having to define love. Having a definition would not make a jot of difference.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why not ?

well suppose your next door neighbor said they had just fallen madly in love and they told you it was the sky that they had fallen in love with?
Or what if your girlfriend told you that the relationship was over since she had now found somewhere who makes her more fulfilled - namely the sky.
Or what if (anyway I think you get the picture) ..

well?
Once again, you can fear, awe or wonder about the sky but you can't love it because love requires knowledge of qualities and the medium of reciprocation.
I mean can you imagine loving a person you knew absolutely nothing about and who you had no scope for reciprocation with?
I mean what are your chances of falling in love with someone in rural china (assuming that you never meet them or know anything about them)?

 

[lightgigantic]

But you're trying to limit "love" to within the realms of your understanding...you are generalizing. Just because you can only concieve of love that endures only with reciprocation or service doesn't mean that it is so.

so provide an example of love that doesn't involve issues of reciprocation and service and we will take it from there.
(BTW I am using love in the sense of being enamored as opposed to merely deriving pleasure, eg "I love maths", which is the sense that Myles is trying to drive at)

What about God and what they say in the Christian religion? Does God not LOVE everyone, whether they love him, worship him, obey him, etc, or not?

and is not god involved with providing service and reciprocating with everyone?

And as for the teenage-bedroom-wall thing, could you not argue that it is not love, but infatuation? One has to define love in order to understand it, but I would say love and its boundaries are indefinable. Love/obsession, Love/hate, Love/lust, Love/infatuation, Love/crush....ect, ect...just like trying to define evil....almost impossible because it is relative.

those are all issues of being enamored
and love certainly does have definitions.
Suppose if someone broke your teeth with a crowbar and kicked you repeatedly in the stomach before stealing your money. If you asked them why they did it and they said "because I love you" would that strike you as a congruent expression?

 

[Myles]

LG Please respond to my post ( 21) above. I inmcorrectly used it to reply to Jessiel mistaking her for you because she quoted you at length

 

[lightgigantic]

LG. This response is to your previous post re love, reciprocation and so on.

Who mentioned reciprocation ? I love Nature but I am not foolish enough to expect it to love me back.

then why are you such a fool to expect it from your wife?
as already mentioned, you are going with a definition of love that's not relevant to the OP. When scripture talks of loving god it's not in the sense of "loving " mathematics or something

Before attempting to support your argument with god and his putative attributes, it might be a good idea to establish his existence first.

before attempting to under-ride definitions of a given field of knowledge it might pay to come up to scratch with the prescriptive descriptions for that field ...

One does not have to define love to understand it. I love my family and do so without having to define love.


Having a definition would not make a jot of difference.

if you didn't understand love, you wouldn't express any discontentment if you caught your wife having an affair.
In fact if you didn't have a working definition of love you would be hard pressed to explain why you work and pay the bills for your family as opposed to some other family living in the same street.

 

[Enmos]

well suppose your next door neighbor said they had just fallen madly in love and they told you it was the sky that they had fallen in love with?
Or what if your girlfriend told you that the relationship was over since she had now found somewhere who makes her more fulfilled - namely the sky.
Or what if (anyway I think you get the picture) ..

well?
Once again, you can fear, awe or wonder about the sky but you can't love it because love requires knowledge of qualities and the medium of reciprocation.
I mean can you imagine loving a person you knew absolutely nothing about and who you had no scope for reciprocation with?
I mean what are your chances of falling in love with someone in rural china (assuming that you never meet them or know anything about them)?

This is nonsense. Being IN LOVE is something else as loving someone or something.
There are lots of types of love.
You love your kids in a different way as you love your wife, no ?
What about your parents ? Are you IN LOVE with them ? Thought not...
The OP does not ask "Why are you IN LOVE with God ?", the question is "Why do you love God ?". Is a different thing LG.

 

[lightgigantic]

This is nonsense. Being IN LOVE is something else as loving someone or something.
There are lots of types of love.
You love your kids in a different way as you love your wife, no ?

but not so different as to avoid issues of knowledge of qualities or reciprocation.
I mean there are very good reasons why one love's one's own wife and children and not the wife and children of someone else in rural china or even in the same street

What about your parents ? Are you IN LOVE with them ? Thought not...

love finds its expression in one of 4 rasas or relationships

1. conjugal
2. parental
3. friendship
4. servitorship

each one is more intense than the one that follows. (at least its no coincidence that wives and mother's in law tend to have strained relationships the world over)
there is a fifth rasa (namely neutrality) which one could apply to things like the sky etc, but since it is right at the bottom of the scale, it doesn't warrant coming under the jurisdiction of "love", simply because there is no possibility of service or reciprocation

The OP does not ask "Why are you IN LOVE with God ?", the question is "Why do you love God ?". Is a different thing LG.

and I mentioned that in my first response
its the same reason one love's anyone else (Namely knowledge of that persons qualities gained through the medium of reciprocation/service)
The mechanics of love are the same, even for god.

 

[Enmos]

but not so different as to avoid issues of knowledge of qualities or reciprocation.
I mean there are very good reasons why one love's one's own wife and children and not the wife and children of someone else in rural china or even in the same street


love finds its expression in one of 4 rasas or relationships

1. conjugal
2. parental
3. friendship
4. servitorship

each one is more intense than the one that follows. (at least its no coincidence that wives and mother's in law tend to have strained relationships the world over)
there is a fifth rasa (namely neutrality) which one could apply to things like the sky etc, but since it is right at the bottom of the scale, it doesn't warrant coming under the jurisdiction of "love", simply because there is no possibility of service or reciprocation


and I mentioned that in my first response
its the same reason one love's anyone else (Namely knowledge of that persons qualities gained through the medium of reciprocation/service)
The mechanics of love are the same, even for god.

What nonsense. So you only love someone if they can do something back for you ?
I am prepared to say that I love nature more then any human.
And we do owe a lot to nature, namely our very existence.
In fact, we are a part of nature.. one could say in a not so different way as that we are part of our parents or kids.

 

[Enmos]

LG, do you have pets ?

 

[lightgigantic]

What nonsense. So you only love someone if they can do something back for you ?

actually it is the other way around.
You can only love someone is you can do something for them (of course, the general tendency is for a person to reciprocate with that by also rendering service .. that is how loving relationships develop)
If you don't believe me just try and fall in love with someone who never does anything for you and whom you cannot do anything for (like say, someone in rural china, assuming that you aren't living there already)

I am prepared to say that I love nature more then any human.

then why do you bother to live with humans or even post on this forum?

And we do owe a lot to nature, namely our very existence.
In fact, we are a part of nature.. one could say in a not so different way as that we are part of our parents or kids.

yet despite all this, we can't do anything for nature, so the emotional distress/happiness one is likely to encounter from an average "relationship" with a human (or even a dog - people get sad when their dog's die ... In fact i heard that the british gov't offers single pensioners a bonus if they buy a dog since studies show they lead a healthier life from simply looking after a dog) is likely to be a zillion times more intense than anything one can muster under the banner of "nature".

 

[lightgigantic]

LG, do you have pets ?

sure
and I also have friends, family etc etc

 

[Enmos]

actually it is the other way around.
You can only love someone is you can do something for them (of course, the general tendency is for a person to reciprocate with that by also rendering service .. that is how loving relationships develop)
If you don't believe me just try and fall in love with someone who never does anything for you and whom you cannot do anything for (like say, someone in rural china, assuming that you aren't living there already)

You can do stuff for nature.. :bugeye:
Also, "try and fall in love" ?? That's not how it works dude.

then why do you bother to live with humans or even post on this forum?

Why do you talk to me ? Do you love me ?

yet despite all this, we can't do anything for nature, so the emotional distress/happiness one is likely to encounter from an average "relationship" with a human (or even a dog - people get sad when their dog's die ... In fact i heard that the british gov't offers single pensioners a bonus if they buy a dog since studies show they lead a healthier life from simply looking after a dog) is likely to be a zillion times more intense than anything one can muster under the banner of "nature".

See above.
You don't get sad when you look at the destruction of nature ?

 

[Enmos]

sure
and I also have friends, family etc etc

Do you love your pet ? And why ?

 

[jessiej920]

and is not god involved with providing service and reciprocating with everyone?

People may love God because they think he provides them a service or they think he loves them back, but God loves everyone, no service, no reciprocation. People may think that God provides them with, say, absolution, and that is why they love him, but God loves the person who doesn't even acknowledge his existence or even knows he exists. People say God is love. People involve God in acts of service, but even if you don't serve God, he loves you anyway. God expects neither service or reciprocation, but loves all, no matter what. Or at least that is what they say. Is that not an example of loving WITHOUT service or reciprocation? Just because people love God back doesn't mean he loves them because of it.

[Quote/]those are all issues of being enamored
and love certainly does have definitions.
Suppose if someone broke your teeth with a crowbar and kicked you repeatedly in the stomach before stealing your money. If you asked them why they did it and they said "because I love you" would that strike you as a congruent expression?[/QUOTE]

Maybe the person who beat you, broke your teeth, and took your money was trying to stop you from going out to buy drugs to kill yourself with. Is that love? You can't define HOW or why someone should love anyone, because it is all relative.

 

[lightgigantic]

Do you love your pet ? And why ?

lol
I love my friends and family more
I guess it has to do with issues of service and reciprocation

 

[lightgigantic]

Emnos
“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
actually it is the other way around.
You can only love someone is you can do something for them (of course, the general tendency is for a person to reciprocate with that by also rendering service .. that is how loving relationships develop)
If you don't believe me just try and fall in love with someone who never does anything for you and whom you cannot do anything for (like say, someone in rural china, assuming that you aren't living there already)
”
You can do stuff for nature..

such as?

Also, "try and fall in love" ?? That's not how it works dude.

so it's just a coincidence that you are not in love with someone from rural china?

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
then why do you bother to live with humans or even post on this forum?
”
Why do you talk to me ? Do you love me ?

well there are some grounds for reciprocation, if that's what you mean

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
yet despite all this, we can't do anything for nature, so the emotional distress/happiness one is likely to encounter from an average "relationship" with a human (or even a dog - people get sad when their dog's die ... In fact i heard that the british gov't offers single pensioners a bonus if they buy a dog since studies show they lead a healthier life from simply looking after a dog) is likely to be a zillion times more intense than anything one can muster under the banner of "nature".
”
See above.
You don't get sad when you look at the destruction of nature ?

only if it has implications on how it affects the way of life for those that I love.
Kind of like I might be sad to see the house tumble down in an earth quake or something

In fact I think it would be difficult to explain our ideas on how nature should exist without seeing obvious parallels to the maintenance of our social ways of life.
I mean in what ways does nature, per see, benefit from sustainable agriculture?

 

[lightgigantic]

People may love God because they think he provides them a service or they think he loves them back, but God loves everyone, no service, no reciprocation.

can you indicate a person existing outside of god's reciprocation or provision?

People may think that God provides them with, say, absolution, and that is why they love him, but God loves the person who doesn't even acknowledge his existence or even knows he exists.

sure
god even provides an atheist with paper to write their fabulous treatises on

People say God is love. People involve God in acts of service, but even if you don't serve God, he loves you anyway. God expects neither service or reciprocation, but loves all, no matter what.

so since it is impossible to indicate a person who is not being provided with things by god, what does that tell you about his love?

Or at least that is what they say. Is that not an example of loving WITHOUT service or reciprocation? Just because people love God back doesn't mean he loves them because of it.

service or reciprocation for either the beloved or lover.

those are all issues of being enamored
and love certainly does have definitions.
Suppose if someone broke your teeth with a crowbar and kicked you repeatedly in the stomach before stealing your money. If you asked them why they did it and they said "because I love you" would that strike you as a congruent expression?

Maybe the person who beat you, broke your teeth, and took your money was trying to stop you from going out to buy drugs to kill yourself with.[/QUOTE]
and what if you weren't?
I mean suppose that just happened right now, and the person was someone you had never met before?
Is your initial response to try and construct some significance of their words "I love you" or is your initial response that there is a distinction between this person's words and actions

Is that love? You can't define HOW or why someone should love anyone, because it is all relative.

and a key thing it is relative to is common themes of love, eg compassion, sacrifice etc etc ... at least distraught women (as an example) have very clear themes in mind when they (often) complain "you don't love me"

 

[Norsefire]

Theists refer to God as Father, or a Creator, and therefore, why would you not love your Creator?

 

[Enmos]

lol
I love my friends and family more
I guess it has to do with issues of service and reciprocation

Really ? How can you establish degrees in love ? It's beyond me..

Anyhow, you completely avoided the question. The question was WHY.

I expected something along the lines of "My pet give me joy, so it's giving something back".
Yea well.. it isn't giving something back consciously..
Now substitute pet with nature..

 

[Enmos]

such as?

Loving it, and acting like it.
Doing anything you can to to damage it and to make other people aware of its beauty and importance. ETC.

so it's just a coincidence that you are not in love with someone from rural china?

There you go with IN LOVE again.. :bugeye:
But yes, it IS coincidence. If I had been born in China I would love people in China.

well there are some grounds for reciprocation, if that's what you mean

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't love you back

only if it has implications on how it affects the way of life for those that I love.
Kind of like I might be sad to see the house tumble down in an earth quake or something

In fact I think it would be difficult to explain our ideas on how nature should exist without seeing obvious parallels to the maintenance of our social ways of life.
I mean in what ways does nature, per see, benefit from sustainable agriculture?

I'm not sure what you're implicating here..
It wouldn't bother you at all if you saw other people massacre hundreds of animals, if it wouldn't hurt the ones you love ?
Do you live in a big city ?