Why do you love God?
- Thread starter NDS
- Start date
Oh dear, I don't believe in god. I can smell the sulphurous fumes of the Lake of Fire. Woe is me !
A preacher was telling his congregation that all were sinners and if they did not accept Jesus and so on, they would spend all eternity in the Lake of Fire.
He went on: " And in your agony you will cry out to god for forgiveness. You will tell the Lord that you did not understand his message. And the good Lord in his infinite mercy will say":
"Well you understand now !"
He went on: " And in your agony you will cry out to god for forgiveness. You will tell the Lord that you did not understand his message. And the good Lord in his infinite mercy will say":
"Well you understand now !"
an easy way is to examine the degree of reciprocation and service
because there is the opportunity for reciprocation and service
well if you want to run with that, you could examine in what ways a pet gives one joy, which would boil down to issues of reciprocation and service.
I mentioned at the onset that love of god is not meant in the way of, say, "loving mathematics" or something
emnos
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but nonetheless you reciprocate
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that is why people don't bat an eyelid to needless slaughter in the meat industry.
There is a type of love (probably better called respect) that one can extend to all living entities, but that is brought into perspective by determining their needs for existence, which again is an issue of reciprocation.
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so how do you practically love something without approaching issues of reciprocation?
so i could say I love my chair since I take good care of it?
and its just a coincidence that living in rural china would also afford the opportunity to reciprocate and serve other rural chinese?
lol
but nonetheless you reciprocate
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technically no
that is why people don't bat an eyelid to needless slaughter in the meat industry.
There is a type of love (probably better called respect) that one can extend to all living entities, but that is brought into perspective by determining their needs for existence, which again is an issue of reciprocation.
not at the moment
I guess agnostic, because I have no ****ing clue what the hell's going on, and I am losing more and more hope every day that I'll ever know. Maybe it doesn't matter if I, or anyone, knows.
If there's a God, I feel like he might as well be a tree or piece of dirt because I have not experienced him really in any way, though it would be nice.
I'm still open to literally anything though. I believe anything is possible, as corny as that sounds.
LG said:
MY POINT EXACTLY!!!
LG, long time no see friend!
The quote from you above is a perfect representation of the my question for this entire thread:
I know absolutely nothing about God, and have never had any "scope for reciprocation" with Him/Her/It.
So, LG, to answer you're question, NO. I have no idea why I should love God at this point who I know absolutely nothing about Him/Her/It and have never had any "scope for reciprocation" with Him/Her/It.
LG said:
How do you serve God? Give me details, if possible.
And "reciprocation" should go both ways, right? Why doesn't God ever serve us? Sounds kind of like a one-way relationship, not a reciprocal, or two-way, one. God gives us orders, and we follow them. We never give God orders.
Why shouldn't God have to gain love for us by serving us? What exactly is the source for his immense love for us if he never serves us?
Why would I serve God if I know nothing about him, nor if he even exists?
Why should I believe God exists? Because you said so, or some ancient scripture (Bible, Vedas, etc.) which has no proof or validity says so?
You genuinely and sincerely belive God exists. The Dalai Lama genuinely and sincerely believes your dead wrong, and there is no person of God. So who should I believe? You both sound very genuine and sincere about your belief's, so who do I pick?
Please, also explain, how does service bring about love? I believe you're dead wrong about service leading to love.
For example, back in the 1800's, african americans were slaves and served their masters. I'm quite certain most slaves didn't develop an immense love for their masters.
We should serve God BECAUSE we love him, not to gain love for him. The service to God should come AFTER the love, not before it. Otherwise the service is anything but genuine. I might as well serve a tree, or rock.
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Really, couldn't he have just given you eternal life without the suffering of either him or everyone to walk the face of the earth?
You're saying you love God because God loves you. But does Christian God really love everyone unconditionally?
Well, let's see, if you serve him on blind faith and suffer for him even when it seems very illogical (kind of like 1800's slavery), then, well, ya, God really loves you a lot.
But if you fail to serve this God who seemingly isn't very talkative and doesn't seem to really spell out what he wants, than he'll torture you for eternity...
So God only loves us if we serve him. Sounds kind of like a dictator.
Hmmmmmm...... Torturing people for eternity does not sound like love. It sounds like hatred and disgust.
Adstar, if someone murdered your family, would you wish that they suffer for and are tortured for eternity? Or would you "find it in your heart" to forgive them? Apparently, God wouldn't.
God tells us to love our enemies, even if they try to kill us. Though, he throws his enemies into a giant lake of fire to torture for eternity. Sounds like a big old double standard to me.
By the way, an eternity in the lake of fire makes Jesus's suffering look like a cakewalk.
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That's your reason? Clearly you don't believe in the Christian God, who will torture you for eternity if you do not love him. You call that choice?
In any case, could you expand on this a little more. I'm not sure how God giving you the ability to choose to love him has caused you to love him. What if God gave you the ability to choose, and literally is laughing at you and making the entire world suffer on purpose for his own entertainment?
In this outlandish, hypothetical case, God has given you the ability to choose to love him, and is literally laughing in your face and torturing you every day.
But hell, this guy gave you this awesome ability to choose, so you say, "I don't mind you tortuing the **** out of me. I love you because you gave me the choice to."
Clearly, that is absurd. You would not love a God which tortures you for fun.
So naturally, you can't possibly love God SOLEY because he has given you the ability to choose. There literally HAS to be another reason for loving God.
My question, Saquist, is what the hell is that reason?
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nice to see you are still in the neighborhood
The quote from you above is a perfect representation of the my question for this entire thread:
I know absolutely nothing about God, and have never had any "scope for reciprocation" with Him/Her/It.
So, LG, to answer you're question, NO. I have no idea who I should love God at this point I know absolutely nothing about Him/Her/It and have never had any "scope for reciprocation" with Him/Her/It. [/QUOTE]
the general progression is name, form, qualities, pastimes - meaning one leads to the other. That is why you see that a common foundational practice in religion is to recite the name/glorification of the name of god ("hallowed be thy name, etc etc)
might be better if you PM me
discussing this sort of thing openly here will just turn into one of the million already existing FSM threads or something
actually god is already providing us with so many necessities of life. If it appears that these necessities are not being met that is because we are doing our finest to mess everything up
I guess the first thing, before practice, is theory. If you have a good understanding of what is meant by the word "god' application becomes less troublesome
there are various logical arguments for god, but of course its the nature of logic that there is no end to rebuttal or antithesis. Essentially people come to god through 4 different avenues - distress, desire for acquisition, curiosity and seeking absolute knowledge. I guess the key element is desire. The notion of god will be (or won't be) relevant to a person according to their desire. Hence that is what the material world is all about - namely the facility for the living entity to try out different sorts of desires in all different sorts of bodies and environments until they eventually find what fits
actually on the topic of what fits, it is service that fits us. We are by nature servants. This means that all our expressions of top quality happiness finds its expression in service. For example even if a person is filthy rich, they will find happiness in serving a dog or something. The problem with material life is that we artificially harbor desires of being the master (actually we are born with nothing and we die with nothing ... and in between its a great struggle simple to maintain anything - so we are not the master of anything). So this is precisely what one aims at overcoming in theistic discipline - namely the desire to be the master (humility, pridelessness, etc etc).
Even in terms of ordinary relationships, pride won't do much for you simply because it inhibits service
I really love the literary character God because for myself He is so unbelievable that I cannot for any reason ever think He is real.
lightgigantic said:
God's Profile:
Name - God
Form - Spirit
Qualties - Good dude?
Pasttimes - ?
Okay LG, I've gone through your progression and still don't love God or believe he exists.
LG, God's not providing us with anything. We either go out and get it ourselves or starve to death. I can sit here and pray for a piece of bread to appear and I can almost guarantee you it won't happen. God doesn't provide necessities. Humans go out and GET THEM WITH OUR OWN ENERGY.
How do I know this? Take the the millions of starving people in the world today and the millions upon millions who have died of starvation. Did God provide those people with necessitites? NOPE.
So the logical rule is: God provides certan people with necessities.
LG said:
Great. There are various logical arguments against a god. So how does that help me? The Dalai Lama is very logical, and actually seems like a good dude with a great understanding of life. So why should I believe you over the DL, who think's there's no God?
You could show the Dalai Lama all the Vedas in the world, and you still won't convince him. I consider the Dalai Lama to be a master in his field (his field is knowledge of reality), so why should I believe you over him?
Really? I'm always the happiest when I'm not serving people and doing what I want to do.
Mother Teresa was one of the biggest "servants" ever, so according to your standards she should have been literally the happiest person on earth. We know now that she was one of the most UNhappy people on earth. Go figure.
LG said:
No, actually pride is main motivating factor in human service. If we help people out, we feel pride in ourselves because we helped them. It's this very sense of pride in ourselves and the fact that other's will look upon us better which is what drives people to help others.
On the topic of reciprocation:
A relationship to God is one way, not reciprocal. God gives us orders, and we follow them. That simple.
Here's the other problem LG: God hasn't given me any orders. I have no way of serving him.
You know how many people the Dalai Lama has helped during his whole life? Thousands. He has dedicated his whole life to "service," in fact, the same exact service that "you" would claim is for God. And after all these years of living soley to serve others, the Dalai Lama still doesn't believe in God. So why the hell would I believe in God from service?
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How can I serve God if I don't believe he exists?
What would be the difference between serving a theory (God) and serving a tree?
If I donated all my money to a proven legitimate charity for young kids in need right now (besides bare necessities) and lived in a small apartment the rest of my life, would you consider that service to God? If I did this, would I magically just love God, let alone believe he exists? Or would I still be confused?
What would be the difference between serving a theory (God) and serving a tree?
If I donated all my money to a proven legitimate charity for young kids in need right now (besides bare necessities) and lived in a small apartment the rest of my life, would you consider that service to God? If I did this, would I magically just love God, let alone believe he exists? Or would I still be confused?
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“ NDS
How did you arrive at “good dude” from spirit?
How did you arrive at “spirit” from God?
You can’t approach the issue of god’s existence by bypassing philosophy
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…. but of course its the nature of logic that there is no end to rebuttal or antithesis.
be a Buddhist
But not one of those nonsense one’s that simply talks all day and does nothing
(henological dialogue forms a large part of inter-religious discussion)
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The reason this isn’t working is because you have no connection between the categories.
How did you arrive at “good dude” from spirit?
How did you arrive at “spirit” from God?
You can’t approach the issue of god’s existence by bypassing philosophy
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If that was the case the only people who would starve in this world are the lazy
You can work at whatever job you want 24/7 but if it doesn’t rain or the sun doesn’t shine I can absolutely guarantee that sooner or later you won’t be eating bread
Actually human energy is more about making things difficult – why else do people work such ridiculous hours just to secure a little food and shelter?
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Hence
…. but of course its the nature of logic that there is no end to rebuttal or antithesis.
“good dude” and “great understanding of life” indicate values and values indicate desire. Logic is simply a tool we use to validate our desires, that’s why there is no end to logical debate
You can show many remarkable parallels to Buddhism within the Vedas however. At the very least, there are good reasons why representatives of the Dalai Lama are involved in inter-religious dialogue and Richard Dawkins isn’t … it has to do with values. If you don’t have any serious value issues with the material world (namely death, old age and disease … and birth too if you are entertaining reincarnation) there is not much room for following up any suggestion of anything beyond it.
Fine
be a Buddhist
But not one of those nonsense one’s that simply talks all day and does nothing
(henological dialogue forms a large part of inter-religious discussion)
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Then perhaps you should investigate why the Dalai Lama offers caution about this sort of way of life (… at the very least, not even an extremely selfish person can be happy unless they have friends so they can gloat)
The reciprocation (or lack of it) comes to the degree of the following. If you can’t follow orders the whole process gets curtailed from the very beginning (hence obedience is the first precept of love, simply because it is the first precept of service). Loving god is initially characterized by servitude (meaning the linear one way variety) simply because conditioned life doesn’t afford the possibility of approaching god any other sort of way … kind of like a criminal in jail doesn’t really have much room to express their appreciation for society except through obedience (once they are no longer “conditioned” by the jail, things are a little different)
Never encountered a prescriptive description in scripture (or from the Dalai Lama for that matter)?
trying to understand god in theory is perhaps the very beginning of service
the key to right practice is right theory. If you don't have a proper understanding you will still be confused.
For instance sacrificing your material possessions for the sake of someone else's material welfare, while certainly noble, doesn't necessarily involve service to god since you don't necessarily have to involve god to do it.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So you establish degrees in love.. hmm..
I'd say you are disqualified to talk about love, obviously you don't know what it is if you are establishing degrees.
Tell me, what scale are you using ? :crazy:
So ? Any human offers that opportunity. Why don't you love all humans ?
So unconscious reciprocation is possible in your mind ? Then loving nature and math as you mention below IS possible.
And who are you to decide how love is meant ?
When I say I love my pet or nature itself, who are you to say that isn't so ?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
I don't know what you mean by 'practically', I guess you mean like in real life ?
If so, I don't know how. But I do.
A chair isn't exactly alive LG.. but I don't see why a crazy person can't love a chair.
Let me put it in words you may be more familiar with: "I love creation".
Maybe your definition is true for people, but I told yo before that there are different kinds of love.
By the way, I do not love people as a group. But I guess that is obvious enough..
lol how ?
Look, I am not against your theory of reciprocation per see. It's your recognition of reciprocation that I disagree with.
I don't understand.. "their needs for existence" ?
Maybe you are right, maybe the better word is respect, but what do you call extreme respect. In my opinion extreme respect is admiration bordering on worship, which in my book is a form of love.
But ? You grew up in a large city and lived many years there ?
Keeping an open mind is important but, please, keep your sanity
That is right. It is not exactly normal to push things that are not proven.
What does that even mean? I don't get it. Who are you to try and define what love is? I call Bullshi*t! Can you define evil? Can you define love? Where do either begin or end? There are no laws for either. Do you know the laws of love? Are you "God"? Tell me WHY and How I should love. Who should I love? Why? Should I love YOUR God? Why? LG, if you're so f*ing smart, tell me, what is love, why does it exist, who deserves love, who should we love, and why do we love? Do you love anyone? And if you do, why? I love you...do you love me back? If you don't, does my love not exist?