Why do you believe in Jesus?

Dreamwalker said:
People have died for all kinds of stupid things. And many people died for their dreams. Others died for nothing at all.

Keep on copying your list, I don´t care, there are myriads of people who died for something, no matter if it existed in reality or only in their head. And plausible? Plausibility is hampered by subjective views, just like objectivity.
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Why don't you give examples of such people to backup your claim? :rolleyes:
 
SouthStar,

You still think they "thought up" the resurrection?

ALL ELEVEN OF THEM thought up the resurrection and died for it?
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People have been killing themselves or letting themselves be killed for their irrational religious beliefs for millennia. Christianity is no special case.

900 die in Jonestown for their religious beliefs.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jonestwn.html#profile

53 die for the Order of the Solar Temple.
http://altreligion.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.culteducation.com/solartemp.html

How about David Koresh and his Branch Davidian sect in Waco, Texas where 86 died for their religious beliefs.
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html#I.1

Kat
 
Spidergoat,
The reason that Christ did not continue to live a long life after he was resurrected was that his mission was fufilled! He had come to earth, become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, and been resurected. There was really no reason for him to hang around much longer. Probably the only reason why he continued on earth for 40 days was so that 500 eyewittnesses could testify to his coming back to life
 
Katazia,
You gave an example of Muslims, who endure torture, ect, because they are (Allegedly) on their way to eternal bliss. This is certainly one good reason to become a martyr. However, the Apostles, if they knew the entire "Jesus is the Messiah" thing was a hoax, would NOT think that they were on their way to eternal bliss, because Jesus would not have been God, and therefore could not reward them! I know I am probably making enemies really fast here on the forum, and it's only my first day. Let me just say, I am sure you guys and gals are all really great as people. I just don't agree with some of your ideas.
-Historian2be

PS I had no idea debating like this could be so addictive
 
historian2be said:
Katazia,
You gave an example of Muslims, who endure torture, ect, because they are (Allegedly) on their way to eternal bliss. This is certainly one good reason to become a martyr. However, the Apostles, if they knew the entire "Jesus is the Messiah" thing was a hoax, would NOT think that they were on their way to eternal bliss, because Jesus would not have been God, and therefore could not reward them! I know I am probably making enemies really fast here on the forum, and it's only my first day. Let me just say, I am sure you guys and gals are all really great as people. I just don't agree with some of your ideas.
-Historian2be

PS I had no idea debating like this could be so addictive
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And you only have seven posts? :rolleyes:

:D
 
@ Kat

The Branch Davidians followed a self-proclaimed prophet. What evidence was there of this and even if there is can you possibly compare it to the evidence needed to convince eleven cowering people that a savior has risen?

Besides, they thought the Holy Spirit was female. Need I say more?

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As for the Jim Jones tragedy, the article doesn't state why they did it so you'll have to explain your point to me.

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The Order of the Solar temple article also doesn't tell as much so I can't relate this either to the apostles.

Remeber, the apostles underwent a transformation, the nature and power of which we are discussing. Before I am accused of jumping to conclusions, tell me how this relates to the mentioned transformation.

:)
 
MW you definitely have thrown out the baby with the bath water.

Why where you attracted to the catholic church??? because you wanted to be a GOOD CATHOLIC a GOOD CHRISTIAN???

The Words Of Jesus:

Mark 10:18
So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

i'm not surprised your faith crumbled. Because it was founded on a false desire ot obtain perfection in this life. Another thing the catholic religion is not Christian so you never where are Christian. But you now call Jesus death and resurrection a lie and they are the words of an anti-christ.

All Praise They Ancient Of Days
 
Computers run on electricity. You can not see the electrons traveling through the circits, but you know that it is happening. Why? Because you can see the effects of it. it brings the computer to life. With out electricity, the computer is useless, it cannot function as it was made to do with out the electricity. God is our electricity. ConsequentAtheist, you have no electricity running through you. that is why Southstar's statement is near inconceivable to you. A person can only describe what they know. You cannot understand what electricity is if you have never felt the current running through your circit.

grace be to you
 
Adstar, I believe that you may be speaking too harshly to Medicine Woman. She was attracted to the Catholic church because people she respected were members. She wanted to belong, so she joined and did all that she felt was required of her. Then she realized that something wasn't right. there was something wrong, she just wasn't sure what. As she seached deeper into the matter, she came to the conclution that the church had lied to her. Nothing this church told her was true. It became her new mission to prevent others from making the mistake she made. She went searching for truth, and this is were she ended up. she may be right, she may be wrong that is her choice. Do not speak harshly to her for questioning what she believes. She does a better job spreading her opinion than many christians. Sorry MW if I didn't paint an accurate picture. Please correct me if need be.

grace be to you
 
The Branch Davidians followed a self-proclaimed prophet. What evidence was there of this and even if there is can you possibly compare it to the evidence needed to convince eleven cowering people that a savior has risen?
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Uh, I think that's exactly the whole point. If followers are able to die to a self-proclaimed prophet such as David Koresh, why could not the apostles be killed in the name of Jesus as well? Both are (supposedly) fake people with a following that died for their beliefs.

And I still find it funny that people resort to the Bible when trying to bring up proof such as:

. Probably the only reason why he continued on earth for 40 days was so that 500 *eyewittnesses* could testify to his coming back to life
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LoL, and where exactly is the proof of those eyewitnesses? Dang, no testemonies to read or hear? You see, when there is NO proof, ANYTHING can be said. Heck, if it were written in the Bible that the WHOLE WORLD saw Jesus and/or God, that is still no proof if nobody else other than the Bible ever mentions it. It's just too bad people still don't realize that history is written by victors. And since it is, anything can be said and believed as proof when there is none.

I remember something like this from the bible: "you have seen so you believe, but blessed are those who have not seen but believe..."
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I'm sure salesmen -- as does Jesus -- looooooove you and others that gullible. Hey, I gotta bridge to sell ya. I mean heck, you don't gotta see it, just believe me bro. $200,000 -- as well as your life in Jesus' case -- is not much of a loss.

I have no problem with those that read and follow the Bible because of a few good things said that'll help one be a bit nicer to others, but damn, those with blind faith and take the Bible as historical fact are just insane. Follow and repeat the good deeds done in the Bible but geez, be a bit more logical with the rest. Only a fool has blind faith.

- N
 
I have no problem with those that read and follow the Bible because of a few good things said that'll help one be a bit nicer to others, but damn, those with blind faith and take the Bible as historical fact are just insane. Follow and repeat the good deeds done in the Bible but geez, be a bit more logical with the rest. Only a fool has blind faith.
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Damnation will come to those that do not repent. You want to know something funny? I have trouble with over-analyzing stuff, too analytical for my own good. But you know what, I belive in God and I believe in the Bible as being absolute truth. Blind faith is when you believe something just because someone else spoke it. The faith I have is not blind. Everywhere I look, I see God's handi-work.
 
Spidergoat,
The reason that Christ did not continue to live a long life after he was resurrected was that his mission was fufilled! He had come to earth, become a sacrifice to atone for mankind's sins, and been resurected. There was really no reason for him to hang around much longer. Probably the only reason why he continued on earth for 40 days was so that 500 eyewittnesses could testify to his coming back to life
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40 days, that sounds like death row. No , I think the resurrection symbolized something. It was that physical existence, having a mortal body, is something significant. It wasn't only because He wanted to make a point about sin. Our material nature has always been seen with some suspicion, as only a sort of proving ground for souls, on the way to Someplace Else, but in this case, it is shown to be a goal in itself.
 
Enigma'07 said:
Adstar, I believe that you may be speaking too harshly to Medicine Woman. She was attracted to the Catholic church because people she respected were members. She wanted to belong, so she joined and did all that she felt was required of her. Then she realized that something wasn't right. there was something wrong, she just wasn't sure what. As she seached deeper into the matter, she came to the conclution that the church had lied to her. Nothing this church told her was true. It became her new mission to prevent others from making the mistake she made. She went searching for truth, and this is were she ended up. she may be right, she may be wrong that is her choice. Do not speak harshly to her for questioning what she believes. She does a better job spreading her opinion than many christians. Sorry MW if I didn't paint an accurate picture. Please correct me if need be.

grace be to you
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RIDICULOUS!

There is no such thing as speaking harshly against MW and as a Christian you should know that.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have taken the time to read through and even consider her "arguments" and therefore I know what I am talking about. :p
 
Neildo said:
Uh, I think that's exactly the whole point. If followers are able to die to a self-proclaimed prophet such as David Koresh, why could not the apostles be killed in the name of Jesus as well? Both are (supposedly) fake people with a following that died for their beliefs.

- N
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First off, here is what I wrote since you have ignored it:

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Now if the resurrection didn't take place (i.e., was false) the disciples knew it. I find no way to demonstrate that they could have been deceived. Therefore these eleven men not only died for a lie - here is the catch - but they knew it was a lie. It would be hard to find eleven people in history who died for a lie, knowing it was a lie.

Unless you can prove your theory that somehow ALL eleven disciples were fooled...

I can trust the apostle's testimonies because, of those men, eleven died martyr's deaths on the basis of two things: the resurrection of Christ, and their believed in Him as God.

Again, how can ALL ELEVEN disciples be decieved concerning these things which would definitely have been very obvious.

Peter-crucified
Andrew-crucified
Matthew-the sword
John-natural
James, son of Alphaeus-crucified
Philip-crucified
Simon-crucified
Thaddaeus-killed by arrows
James, brother of Jesus-stoned
Thomas-spear thrust
Bartholomew-crucified
James, son of Zebedee-the sword

ALL the apostles themselves had to be convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. At first they hadn't believed. They went and hid (Mark 14:50). They didn't hesitate to express their doubts. There was Thomas, who said he wouldn't believe that Christ was raised from the dead until he had put his finger in the nail prints. Thomas later died a martyr's death for Christ (see above list). Whas he deceived? He bet his life he wasn't.
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Information from McDowell's 'More than a Carpenter'
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Now, as I was saying smartypants, how does that tragedy relate to the apostles' radical TRANSFORMATION and the evidence that led to it.

Proof of a resurrected savior. It is quite difficult to be "illusioned" about something like that even though I see people saying they could have been hallucinating. :rolleyes: Yeah right.
 
§outh§tar said:
Besides, they thought the Holy Spirit was female. Need I say more?
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I have no idea why Branch Davidians thought so, but can you tell why do you not think so.?

The Father - ________ - The Son : That makes some sense, man.
 
Enigma'07 said:
Adstar, I believe that you may be speaking too harshly to Medicine Woman. She was attracted to the Catholic church because people she respected were members. She wanted to belong, so she joined and did all that she felt was required of her. Then she realized that something wasn't right. there was something wrong, she just wasn't sure what. As she seached deeper into the matter, she came to the conclution that the church had lied to her. Nothing this church told her was true. It became her new mission to prevent others from making the mistake she made. She went searching for truth, and this is were she ended up. she may be right, she may be wrong that is her choice. Do not speak harshly to her for questioning what she believes. She does a better job spreading her opinion than many christians. Sorry MW if I didn't paint an accurate picture. Please correct me if need be.

grace be to you
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Respect humans?

Why would one respect something not perfect?

Psalm 40:4
Blessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust, And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

"She went searching for truth, and this is were she ended up."

After leaving the catholic chruch did she go searching for truth or did she go searching for vengeance against anything called Christian?

"Do not speak harshly to her for questioning what she believes."

Don't you see she has gone bejond that? she not only does not believe she is now activly attacking the Gospel. If she was attacking the catholic dogma or protestant dogma or any other falseness against the Word of God then that would be wonderful, But she is attacking the core faith of the Messiah Jesus. I was once a catholic myself and i thank God i got out that harlot of constantine.

I do not have any ill feelings toward MW i hope one day she will get over her anger at what happened in her life. i may sound harsh but i am being direct.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
New evidence surrounding the death of Joseph Smith suggests
that he was not killed by the jailhouse mob as is normally believed. The
evidence now shows that he died from having an unusually large amount of semen
pumped into his anus by dozens of black men. He having so much semen pumped into
his anus eventually got what doctors call semenotosis or " semen on the brain"
in fact autopsy results have shown that his stool contained almost 75% semen.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
 
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