Why do you believe in Jesus?
- Thread starter Joeman
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ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Medicine Woman said:
How would she know? This, of course, is the same pathetic Medicine*Woman who, like so many week minded New Agers, could do no more than substitute the religious programming of the idiotic for the religious programming of the backward. She proudly proclaims Patrick H. Bellringer as her authority on Paul and freely quotes line after line of unsubstantiated drivil from his "PEOPLE OF THE LIE: SAUL OF TARSUS: PAUL", but she fails to inform us that her Bellringer also wrote:
5. Aliens Among Us!
Many UFO sightings are presently being reported around the world. Such sightings shall only increase. ... Contrary to U.S. government prattle, these starships are our secret allies of the Forces of Light, who are here to help us establish peace in our world at this time. Expect to see real aliens, ascended Masters and other Light Beings on your T.V. soon! And God said, “There shall be peace on earth and good-will toward men”---now! Aho!
- see http://www.fourwinds10.com/phb/update-11-13-02.html#5
One wonders whether Medicine*Woman, this exposer of the bizarre, this enemy of the fairy-tale, is likewise 'expect[ing] to see real aliens, ascended Masters and other Light Beings on [her] T.V. soon!' Many UFO sightings are presently being reported around the world. Such sightings shall only increase. ... Contrary to U.S. government prattle, these starships are our secret allies of the Forces of Light, who are here to help us establish peace in our world at this time. Expect to see real aliens, ascended Masters and other Light Beings on your T.V. soon! And God said, “There shall be peace on earth and good-will toward men”---now! Aho!
- see http://www.fourwinds10.com/phb/update-11-13-02.html#5
Few demonstrate being blinded by programming so well as this sad yet pretentious new age nun of nonsense.
And so it goes, from one baseless revelation to the next, each increasingly inane, each leaving its heroine increasingly vapid and vitriolic. It really is rather sad.Medicine Woman said:
ConsequentAtheist said:
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
Be a good girl and learn the proper use of the quoting mechanism. Your posts are beginning to take on an excessively neurotic look - it's almost self referential. Did you skip your meds again?
historian2be
Registered Member
We know Nero persecuted Christians, correct? And we know that these persecutions were awful and horrible, correct? My question is, why would the apostles be subjected to indescribable torture if they knew that the entire thing was just a big hoax?
Because they had faith? There are people who gladly experience pain for their religion (not only christians). Others blow themself up for their beliefs. No matter if it is true or not, if you have faith, it is possible to endure.
historian2be
Registered Member
Yes, of course they had faith. But take this example. just a few months after Jesus's acsention, the apostles, who had walked with Jesus, began preaching in Jerusalem. The Jewish leaders were not happy about it, and they did all sorts of nasty things to the apostles. The Jewish leaders KNEW Jesus had existed, because they had planned to have him killed! Obviously, the apostles would have ended up in something more like the 1 AD version of a straight-jacket than prison if they were claiming that Jesus had existed when he hadn't.
Further more, Although people today are blowing themselves up for their religion, they are simply taking someone else's word that their god existed. The apostles walked with Jesus first hand. They would not endure torture for someone that they knew was not true. Why would they make him up, I ask? They certainly didn't benefit from their religion, because they preached giving to the poor ect.
Further more, Although people today are blowing themselves up for their religion, they are simply taking someone else's word that their god existed. The apostles walked with Jesus first hand. They would not endure torture for someone that they knew was not true. Why would they make him up, I ask? They certainly didn't benefit from their religion, because they preached giving to the poor ect.
I believe in Jesus because of internal evidence, the worth of some of the sayings and parables that are attributed to him. However, I don't believe the dogma of the Christian church, which I think has distorted his teaching from the very beginning. Some of those distortions include his exclusive divinity, and probably a few of the miracles.
historian2be said:
There are always people who are willing to sacrifice their lifes for friends or idols. It is still faith, those who followed Jesus had faith that he was the son of god. But was there evidence? Persumably not. But Jesus was nontheless a friend and idol for them. Hence they did not stray from their faith in him even if they were tortured. Those guys took his word that god existed.
Jesus might´ve just been the leader of a sect.
And I never said that Jesus did not exist.
TheERK said:
I was referring to another thread where I hand typed (not copy-n-paste) a whole page of information concerning the reliability of the New Testament.
Not only did she fail to even acknowledge my reply to her question, she totally abandoned the thread altogether. This irritates me because it's not even the first time she has fled when someone refutes her inane ideology.
Medicine Woman said:
You continue to remind me of Proud Muslim. Why don't you start using colorful text and giant font to prove your ignorance?
- Both you and PM have the same writing style, same ludicrous "sources", same habit of fleeing every conversation that proves too difficult, same obnoxious arrogance.
Dreamwalker said:
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Now if the resurrection didn't take place (i.e., was false) the disciples knew it. I find no way to demonstrate that they could have been deceived. Therefore these eleven men not only died for a lie - here is the catch - but they knew it was a lie. It would be hard to find eleven people in history who died for a lie, knowing it was a lie.
Unless you can prove your theory that somehow ALL eleven disciples were fooled...
I can trust the apostle's testimonies because, of those men, eleven died martyr's deaths on the basis of two things: the resurrection of Christ, and their believed in Him as God.
Again, how can ALL ELEVEN disciples be decieved concerning these things which would definitely have been very obvious.
Peter-crucified
Andrew-crucified
Matthew-the sword
John-natural
James, son of Alphaeus-crucified
Philip-crucified
Simon-crucified
Thaddaeus-killed by arrows
James, brother of Jesus-stoned
Thomas-spear thrust
Bartholomew-crucified
James, son of Zebedee-the sword
ALL the apostles themselves had to be convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead. At first they hadn't believed. They went and hid (Mark 14:50). They didn't hesitate to express their doubts. There was Thomas, who said he wouldn't believe that Christ was raised from the dead until he had put his finger in the nail prints. Thomas later died a martyr's death for Christ (see above list). Whas he deceived? He bet his life he wasn't.
--------------------
Information from McDowell's 'More than a Carpenter'
Perhaps they thought up the resurrection? There is no historic proof for it.
You know that faith can make you blind? Perhaps they died for a friend in whom they believed and trusted and whom they wanted to engrandize, making him immortal in the minds of mankind. And because of that they themself lied and died for a lie and for their friend/idol.
You know that faith can make you blind? Perhaps they died for a friend in whom they believed and trusted and whom they wanted to engrandize, making him immortal in the minds of mankind. And because of that they themself lied and died for a lie and for their friend/idol.
Dreamwalker said:
Ok then. After seeing the list (here it is again):
Peter-crucified
Andrew-crucified
Matthew-the sword
John-natural
James, son of Alphaeus-crucified
Philip-crucified
Simon-crucified
Thaddaeus-killed by arrows
James, brother of Jesus-stoned
Thomas-spear thrust
Bartholomew-crucified
James, son of Zebedee-the sword
You still think they "thought up" the resurrection?
ALL ELEVEN OF THEM thought up the resurrection and died for it?
Hopefully, not even you thinks that is at all plausible. :bugeye:
People have died for all kinds of stupid things. And many people died for their dreams. Others died for nothing at all.
Keep on copying your list, I don´t care, there are myriads of people who died for something, no matter if it existed in reality or only in their head. And plausible? Plausibility is hampered by subjective views, just like objectivity.
Keep on copying your list, I don´t care, there are myriads of people who died for something, no matter if it existed in reality or only in their head. And plausible? Plausibility is hampered by subjective views, just like objectivity.
Of all the apostles, only Thomas knew for sure about Jesus' resurrection, since he was the only one who claimed to have touched him. Of the rest, there is something between a lie and the truth. Many people can see the same event and they will have all seen something different. There is the phenomenon of mass hysteria. Also, when people are very stressed out, like when your teacher who you have given up your whole life to follow is suddenly killed, they may hallucinate. Even in normal circumstances, our senses can not be trusted entirely. They could have all just assumed that Jesus died and was resurrected when in fact he may not have died in the first place, his twin could have been crucified in his place, or Jesus was crucified, but did not die. This is just hypothetical, but an example of how a story can be true, but still not be the whole truth.
Thousands have died for a lie, knowing it was a lie. How about Vietnam? I think few soldiers over there really believed they were saving the civilized world from the dangers of communism. The disciples could have promoted the myth of Christ's resurrection because they knew it would bring many converts to a cause they believed was noble.
If Jesus was resurrected, why did he not go on to live a long life? The myth of him being resurrected and then GOING TO HEAVEN (dying) ANYWAY, is the most unbelievable part, and I think discredits the whole story.
Thousands have died for a lie, knowing it was a lie. How about Vietnam? I think few soldiers over there really believed they were saving the civilized world from the dangers of communism. The disciples could have promoted the myth of Christ's resurrection because they knew it would bring many converts to a cause they believed was noble.
If Jesus was resurrected, why did he not go on to live a long life? The myth of him being resurrected and then GOING TO HEAVEN (dying) ANYWAY, is the most unbelievable part, and I think discredits the whole story.
Historian2be,
The irrationality of blind absolute faith will drive people to do anything whether true or not. This is the evil that is religion.
Kat
Just like the Islamic suicide bombers if you are convinced there is an afterlife and that true rewards and paradise are waiting for you when you die then torture and dying are merely minor inconveniences on the way to eternal bliss.
The irrationality of blind absolute faith will drive people to do anything whether true or not. This is the evil that is religion.
Kat