Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Must be on a different channel than I get. All the ones I've ever seen didn't consist of much of anything that's worthy to discuss.
Ok...then have a nice day!
Why can't ghosts exist?
- Thread starter Magical Realist
- Start date
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Well...humans use energy to perform actions. When I decide to take a walk, haven't I willed energy from my own mind into the service of moving my body? Why couldn't other entities do the same? A mind is a metaphysical entity--existing in some non-extended state. Why couldn't other such entities--or even disembodied minds-- exist too? As far as the physics of ghostly manifestation, I don't think people have enough information yet as to WHY they appear or don't appear more often. On alot of ghost hunting shows it is observed how they draw heat energy from the air and from batteries to perform some physical action. So it isn't so much that they need lots of energy to exist per se, but they apparently need energy to manifest in some way perceivable to our dull senses.
i don't take any of those ghost hunter shows seriously because of several factors. it's a show to entertain so they need to come up with something or sensationalize. also, a lot of those people have no idea what they are looking for and just want to be scared or spooked. they also have superstitious views of ghosts or paranormal phenomenon.
it's very obvious because they tend to work in the dark as it creates a sense of drama or fear.
the people i've talked to that have seen so-called ghosts or have experienced paranonormal phenomenon has nothing to do with time of day or how dark or light it is inside or outside.
there are also a lot of people who create hoaxes just for fun. this doesn't mean there aren't unusual things that occur but it's hard to separate the two sometimes.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
It is indeed daunting, perhaps more to smug adherents of scientism than to real scientists, that the universe exhibit behavior and phenomena that cannot be explained yet. Hell, science can't even explain the mind and consciousness yet. How would we expect them to be able to quantify other transphysical entities?
My concern is not so much that science explain it as just recognize that there is a phenomena going on that we don't understand yet. Fearless objective examination of the evidence is the least we can expect here. Thankfully people aren't waiting around for this to happen and are coming up with recorded evidence of their own.
I used to not believe myself. In fact I'd rather not NOW. Do you think I like laying in bed at night thinking something could float across the ceiling? Believe me, I'd RATHER everything operated smoothly and scientifically with no uncertainty whatsoever. But that's not the kind of reality we live in.
No. you derive ALL your energy from food. If you don't eat, and you use all your reserves of fat and protein, you die. Simple.
Eat my vomit.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Good point..But doesn't it take a minimal amount of pre-existent energy to USE energy? A light is clicked on with our hand. A car is started with a turn of the key. Is the food-derived energy of the body sufficient to decide how much of and in what way that energy is spent?
Which part of ALL did you not understand?
Where else would the energy come from?
You should listen to D, he doesn't say much but when he does, it's usually direct and to the point.
The chemical pathways by which plants and animals get thier energy are well known and are not disputed by anybody. It is a simple matter of fact.
There is no pre-existing energy. You do not have to be switched on each day by someone else do you? Your energy is stored from your meals. If you don't use it all it turns to glycogen and fat, which is the main way energy is stored.
There is no "magic" energy. None. It does not exist.
I think MR's got me on ignore*. Which makes it fun for me.
* He didn't like an earlier "direct and to the point" comment of mine and the ignore list is apparently how he "deals" with anyone who doesn't agree with him.
so you can emphatically say for a fact that no paranormal activities exist or have happened, right? interesting you just know everything there is.
there was a case where an orb was seen by several witnesses around this woman. what they think is it was a projection of her own psychosis which was very strong. it took on a life of it's own, so to speak.
this may not be a usual occurence but i can't rule out that it's impossible. she also claimed to be raped by some unseen spirit and even her family members witnessed it as well as someone she was dating. of course he left in awful fright but no matter what it's called or if it's called magic or ghosts is irrevelant. we just do not know the various ways energies can work as it can be complicated. the mind can be a powerful thing for good or ill to yourself or others.
it's quite stupid and rote to be that sure just for convenience and it makes you wonder why people who haven't experienced anything are so afraid and adamant against any possibility of such occurences. they want to believe the world is neat and orderly always or that nothing is beyond their neat grasp. it doesn't always work that way.
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Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
Wow..such rock-hard certainty! As if stating an assertion over and over makes it even more convincing? Oh..and btw, "D" by which I guess you mean "Dweedledee", is inside my little "ignore" jar sitting quietly underneath my front porch. So LISTENING to him has, praize gawd!, long since ceased to be an option for me.
There doesn't seem to be any other way to get you to recognise a fact (note: not assertion).
For future reference my user name Dywyddyr. There are forum rules on deliberately mangling user names. Ignore list or not this is your one and only warning - any further misuse will be reported.
I'm not afraid of anything birch. Least of all the possibility of a ghost. In fact, I'd love the chance to study a ghost, there are a lot of piercing questions that I would just love to ask it. But I know catagorically where our energy is derived, it really hasn't been a question of note for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The chemical pathway for the conversion of ATP to ADP and back, the co2 lysis in plants and aerobic and anaerobic combustion are fully understood. There is no mistake. I'm a biologist, it's what I do.
As for some etherial, unproven mysterious energy available only to ghosts, no. It does not exist. I have only ever seen people try to fake photo's etc, and in fact the whole field seems to attract fakers. Proven fakers. If you could prove it you'd be a very, very rich man, I can assure you. Thousands have tried, thousands have failed. Some people genuinely believe it, and good luck to them, but simply believing in something doesn't make it so. Others believe the rantings of cranks, but ranting doesn't make it so either.
Conservation of energy is no crank science, nor is biology. It's solid, and all scientists know it. It's not in question.
As for some etherial, unproven mysterious energy available only to ghosts, no. It does not exist. I have only ever seen people try to fake photo's etc, and in fact the whole field seems to attract fakers. Proven fakers. If you could prove it you'd be a very, very rich man, I can assure you. Thousands have tried, thousands have failed. Some people genuinely believe it, and good luck to them, but simply believing in something doesn't make it so. Others believe the rantings of cranks, but ranting doesn't make it so either.
Conservation of energy is no crank science, nor is biology. It's solid, and all scientists know it. It's not in question.
you just jumped from possibility to belief. i can tell just from reading your post that it's a bit paranoid and you are trying to reassure yourself. i can also tell you can only think categorically and rotely. you completely glossed over that there are different types of occurences which are not supernatural or 'magical', it is just not understood at this time. anything that is not understood is seen as supernatural or magical my most people. i don't know why people have a problem with just leaving things to possibilities. no one said they have to believe in ghosts or anything else.
not everything has to be wrapped up. we can just say we know what we know for now.
one can choose to believe it doesn't exist or not understand what the hell it is since it makes no difference either way anyways but don't emphatically say one understands everything or knows everything. that's just assinine. i don't even believe in ghosts. i consider different ideas and info for what it is. i don't need to conclude categorically of anything since i'm not that insecure.
when did anyone say this, genius? you are just going off your own stereotypes of what a ghost is. maybe it's not a ghost at all. you might as well be talking about casper.
anyways, i like your 'it does not exist' statement. i'm sure it's very reassuring to you. lol
not everything has to be wrapped up. we can just say we know what we know for now.
one can choose to believe it doesn't exist or not understand what the hell it is since it makes no difference either way anyways but don't emphatically say one understands everything or knows everything. that's just assinine. i don't even believe in ghosts. i consider different ideas and info for what it is. i don't need to conclude categorically of anything since i'm not that insecure.
when did anyone say this, genius? you are just going off your own stereotypes of what a ghost is. maybe it's not a ghost at all. you might as well be talking about casper.
anyways, i like your 'it does not exist' statement. i'm sure it's very reassuring to you. lol
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On the contrary, i am perfectly at ease with the situation. I was asked why ghosts can't exist, and so I said why. simple. You have, on the other hand tries to accuse me of being afraid and then of paranoia and finally insecurity. I am none of these, and have been happy to explian the physics and biology known to be true facts of science. You can only come up with feeble personal slurs, no substantive evidence of any kind or even your usual "it's God doing it" speech. Ah but you have a vested interest don't you?
If ghosts can be shown to be nothing but mumbo-jumbo, what does that mean for your Holy Ghost. You can't countenance it not existing. Sorry about that, it was an unintended consequence. The most powerful ghost ever, and what does it do? Nothing. Exactly nothing. Why? because it does not exist.
Learn about conservation of energy, it's not hard. Then you'll see why ghosts can't exist.
If ghosts can be shown to be nothing but mumbo-jumbo, what does that mean for your Holy Ghost. You can't countenance it not existing. Sorry about that, it was an unintended consequence. The most powerful ghost ever, and what does it do? Nothing. Exactly nothing. Why? because it does not exist.
Learn about conservation of energy, it's not hard. Then you'll see why ghosts can't exist.
i don't believe in god. i see nothing but more paranoia in your post. i don't even believe in ghosts yet you are still on that train of thought. it's either you believe or it's emphaticaly out of the question is your logic on the issue.
we create not just on a naked-eye physical level. we also create on an emotional/mental level.
many atheists are so ascetic they tend to view everything from a reactive point of view. from that type of position then nothing does seem to be real unless it's knock on wood.
there are people like that. a typical example is of a person who tends to react to only outside stimuli without ever considering about harnessing what is inside of them. but the truth is you can also be proactive and procreative on the mental/emotional level which aren't concretely evident. we do it all the time. one's moods can even affect another subtly or overtly.
even concepts and ideas are creations as well as our emotions or how we cultivate them.
You can't misuse the term 'evidence' in this way.
Real is real, there is no 'at least' / 'at most' real.
'Non-extended' ???
Although his theory is of course only one of many, the "philosopher who thinks like a neurobiologist" John Searle (The 1984 Reith lectures : Minds,Brains, Science ) has a direct answer to your question.
Magical Realist:
Nothing is "made of energy". Energy isn't a substance, even though every new-age guru, astrologer and psychic will try to tell you it is.
Everything is at the quantum level. Large objects such as people are made of small objects such as atoms. Atoms have quantum properties. People, who are made of atoms, have quantum properties. But people can't walk through walls.
There's nothing magical about quantum physics, despite what those new-age gurus would have you believe. Quantum physics is science. It doesn't explain ghosts.
No dimensions beyond the usual four we are familiar with (3 space and 1 time) have ever been detected anywhere. So ignore new-age gurus who tell you there are extra dimensions.
You only think there are many that are real and authentic. Any real investigation would show you quickly that there are many many fakes, and many many instances where there are perfectly normal explanations for fuzzy spots on photos, strange-looking people in photos, grainy videos and so on.
Grow up a little. Some people do go to an amazing amount of trouble to create hoaxes. On the other hand, many ghost hoaxes are easy to fake - almost no trouble at all. You can doctor a photo to show a ghost with practically zero effort, and you don't even need to photoshop it.
You decide who's reputable. That's the problem you're currently having - you're willing to believe anybody right now. You think everybody is honest, nobody would be bothered hoaxing you, nobody wants money or fame, etc. You're way too naive right now.
Don't trust Congress when 100 members report a ghost in the House of Representatives? I say "Good for you!" Now you're finally developing a healthy sense of skepticism. Next apply that to the single witnesses whose internet photos you currently believe are unquestionably real.
I just told you there are facilities that exist explicitly to replicate lightning strikes. Do you think I'm lying to you? Have you ever watched Mythbusters? On at least one show, they used one of those places. They went there and filmed it. I'm sure you could check for yourself with about 2 minutes of internet searching as to whether I'm telling the truth or not.
Please give ONE example if you can, other than of ghosts, of something that is made of "some kind of energy".
95% of those ghost programmes take a credulous approach to the matter. They never do proper scientific investigations. They only ever interview the believers. Skeptics and real scientists never feature on those programmes. No alternative, sensible explanations are ever offered. All you get is a string of people being interviewed telling you they went to a place and "felt a presence" or "got the shivers up my spine" or "saw a light I couldn't explain" or "heard a weird noise that I couldn't explain" or whatever. And they'll tell you the local history of the place - that according to legend somebody was murdered there or died a cruel death or whatever. Everything they tell you supports the ghost story. They never look for alternative explanations such as old buildings, creaky floors and doors, dusty rooms that produce bright spots on photos when you use the flash, etc.
A lot of them, even on the first page, are quite obvious and badly-done fakes. Can't you see that? Others are slightly cleverer fakes. Some are legitimate photos but they don't actually show ghosts, just effects of the conditions under which the photo was taken or of characteristics of the camera.
Maybe a man in a dark suit was standing behind her sons...? Who knows?
You'd have to know all the conditions under which the photo was taken, how reliable you niece is in telling the truth, and a lot of other facts before you could start getting to the bottom of that.
There are certainly people like you who are true believers who will want to go and sit in a cold damp house somewhere for the night. As a true believer, you'll be very willing to interrupt a boring night by attributing any strange noises you hear from the creaky old place to a ghost in the house. That will make it all seem worthwhile, I'm sure.
Take tigers, for example. Do tigers exist? Suppose you've never seen a tiger yourself. How could I convince you they exist? Well, for a start, I can pull out MILLIONS of crystal-clear and well-focused photographs of tigers doing all the things that tigers do. I can show you HOURS upon HOURS of video of tigers in various habitats - all of it consistent with the alleged behaviour of tigers. Moreover, NOTHING in what these tigers do breaks any of the known laws of physics, and what they are observed to do matches all kinds of other circumstantial evidence for their existence. I could bring you prey animals that have been attacked in ways that are quite characteristic of tigers, and consistent once again. I can bring other physical evidence of tigers - their droppings, the odd tooth perhaps, maybe some hair that you could send off for analysis. I can show you evidence of many other animals that share habitats with tigers, and show you that their existence is quite consistent with the existence of tigers.
If you were still doubtful, eventually I could take you to a zoo where I could point out a real-life tiger to you - guaranteed to be there any day you chose to go and look.
Obviously, the situation is completely different with ghosts. Why are the photos fuzzy and badly focused? Why is the video always dark and grainy? Why are the sound recordings always vague and of poor quality? Why can't ghosts be guaranteed to be seen at a particular time and place?
No. The energy to run your body comes from your food. Your brain is also run from the same source. The brain signals the body via well-understood electrical signals.
A mind exists in a physical object called a brain. No brain, no mind.
Science has gone a long way towards explaining the mind and consciousness. We have mapped many many functions of the brain. We understand very well how we see things, for example. We know where memories are stored in the brain.
Scientists do not study transphysical entities for the simple reason that there's no reliable evidence that such entities exist.
Then you should be out there demanding that those ghost-hunter TV shows you're so fond of start employing some real scientists and also start giving equal time to skeptics who have some doubts from the start about the ghosts being investigated. Giving all the time to the believers/hoaxers is hardly objective examination of the evidence, is it?
You know what? I think you do like thinking that something could float across your ceiling at night. If you saw a ghost yourself, that would make you special. You might even become famous for your ghost story.
Also, you find it nice to know that all those smarty-pants book-learnin' types who have an actual education in science don't know everything. You are one-up on them, because you know how the world really is, while they stupidly live in a narrow world of ignorance.
Is that how it works?
Nothing is "made of energy". Energy isn't a substance, even though every new-age guru, astrologer and psychic will try to tell you it is.
Everything is at the quantum level. Large objects such as people are made of small objects such as atoms. Atoms have quantum properties. People, who are made of atoms, have quantum properties. But people can't walk through walls.
There's nothing magical about quantum physics, despite what those new-age gurus would have you believe. Quantum physics is science. It doesn't explain ghosts.
No dimensions beyond the usual four we are familiar with (3 space and 1 time) have ever been detected anywhere. So ignore new-age gurus who tell you there are extra dimensions.
You only think there are many that are real and authentic. Any real investigation would show you quickly that there are many many fakes, and many many instances where there are perfectly normal explanations for fuzzy spots on photos, strange-looking people in photos, grainy videos and so on.
Grow up a little. Some people do go to an amazing amount of trouble to create hoaxes. On the other hand, many ghost hoaxes are easy to fake - almost no trouble at all. You can doctor a photo to show a ghost with practically zero effort, and you don't even need to photoshop it.
You decide who's reputable. That's the problem you're currently having - you're willing to believe anybody right now. You think everybody is honest, nobody would be bothered hoaxing you, nobody wants money or fame, etc. You're way too naive right now.
Don't trust Congress when 100 members report a ghost in the House of Representatives? I say "Good for you!" Now you're finally developing a healthy sense of skepticism. Next apply that to the single witnesses whose internet photos you currently believe are unquestionably real.
I just told you there are facilities that exist explicitly to replicate lightning strikes. Do you think I'm lying to you? Have you ever watched Mythbusters? On at least one show, they used one of those places. They went there and filmed it. I'm sure you could check for yourself with about 2 minutes of internet searching as to whether I'm telling the truth or not.
Please give ONE example if you can, other than of ghosts, of something that is made of "some kind of energy".
95% of those ghost programmes take a credulous approach to the matter. They never do proper scientific investigations. They only ever interview the believers. Skeptics and real scientists never feature on those programmes. No alternative, sensible explanations are ever offered. All you get is a string of people being interviewed telling you they went to a place and "felt a presence" or "got the shivers up my spine" or "saw a light I couldn't explain" or "heard a weird noise that I couldn't explain" or whatever. And they'll tell you the local history of the place - that according to legend somebody was murdered there or died a cruel death or whatever. Everything they tell you supports the ghost story. They never look for alternative explanations such as old buildings, creaky floors and doors, dusty rooms that produce bright spots on photos when you use the flash, etc.
A lot of them, even on the first page, are quite obvious and badly-done fakes. Can't you see that? Others are slightly cleverer fakes. Some are legitimate photos but they don't actually show ghosts, just effects of the conditions under which the photo was taken or of characteristics of the camera.
Maybe a man in a dark suit was standing behind her sons...? Who knows?
You'd have to know all the conditions under which the photo was taken, how reliable you niece is in telling the truth, and a lot of other facts before you could start getting to the bottom of that.
There are certainly people like you who are true believers who will want to go and sit in a cold damp house somewhere for the night. As a true believer, you'll be very willing to interrupt a boring night by attributing any strange noises you hear from the creaky old place to a ghost in the house. That will make it all seem worthwhile, I'm sure.
Take tigers, for example. Do tigers exist? Suppose you've never seen a tiger yourself. How could I convince you they exist? Well, for a start, I can pull out MILLIONS of crystal-clear and well-focused photographs of tigers doing all the things that tigers do. I can show you HOURS upon HOURS of video of tigers in various habitats - all of it consistent with the alleged behaviour of tigers. Moreover, NOTHING in what these tigers do breaks any of the known laws of physics, and what they are observed to do matches all kinds of other circumstantial evidence for their existence. I could bring you prey animals that have been attacked in ways that are quite characteristic of tigers, and consistent once again. I can bring other physical evidence of tigers - their droppings, the odd tooth perhaps, maybe some hair that you could send off for analysis. I can show you evidence of many other animals that share habitats with tigers, and show you that their existence is quite consistent with the existence of tigers.
If you were still doubtful, eventually I could take you to a zoo where I could point out a real-life tiger to you - guaranteed to be there any day you chose to go and look.
Obviously, the situation is completely different with ghosts. Why are the photos fuzzy and badly focused? Why is the video always dark and grainy? Why are the sound recordings always vague and of poor quality? Why can't ghosts be guaranteed to be seen at a particular time and place?
No. The energy to run your body comes from your food. Your brain is also run from the same source. The brain signals the body via well-understood electrical signals.
A mind exists in a physical object called a brain. No brain, no mind.
Science has gone a long way towards explaining the mind and consciousness. We have mapped many many functions of the brain. We understand very well how we see things, for example. We know where memories are stored in the brain.
Scientists do not study transphysical entities for the simple reason that there's no reliable evidence that such entities exist.
Then you should be out there demanding that those ghost-hunter TV shows you're so fond of start employing some real scientists and also start giving equal time to skeptics who have some doubts from the start about the ghosts being investigated. Giving all the time to the believers/hoaxers is hardly objective examination of the evidence, is it?
You know what? I think you do like thinking that something could float across your ceiling at night. If you saw a ghost yourself, that would make you special. You might even become famous for your ghost story.
Also, you find it nice to know that all those smarty-pants book-learnin' types who have an actual education in science don't know everything. You are one-up on them, because you know how the world really is, while they stupidly live in a narrow world of ignorance.
Is that how it works?