Why can't ghosts exist?
- Thread starter Magical Realist
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birch:
When I burn my finger I don't feel a pain in my heart. I feel a pain in my finger, and I'm likely to snatch it back from the hot stove and put it in my mouth or run it under a tap or something.
It's possible that a burnt finger could trigger some kind of heart attack, but I think that would be rare.
I don't have a sense of self in the heart area. If I think about where my "self" is at all, I think of it as being located in my brain, although obviously like almost everybody I have a strong sense that the various parts of my body are part of Me. (Interestingly, certain kinds of brain damage can make people lose the sense that their leg, say, belongs to them. They then regard it as a foreign object. It's quite strange.)
Before the advent of modern medicine (and certainly before we understood electricity very well), poets and writers and philosophers tended to locate the "soul" in the heart. The general view was that the brain had basically no function, although some thought it might be an organ for cooling the blood (not an unreasonable guess, seeing as we lose a LOT of heat through our heads).
It looks like maybe you've absorbed too much old poetry or old thinking and not enough 20th-century science. You're culturally conditioned to think that your "self" is located in your heart area. In contrast, I think of my "self" as being located mostly in my brain. But neither of us really has a localised sense of self. Like I said, we consider our entire bodies to be part of ourselves. Our consciousness feels distributed, even if it isn't.
You've really got to separate perception from fact. How things feel or look or sound or smell to you may not, at the bottom of things, be how they actually are. Humans regularly operate under all kinds of different illusions. That pain in my finger really does happen in my brain, not in the finger. What happens in the finger is just some stimulation of the nerve endings. But I will swear to you that burning my finger makes the finger hurt like hell, even though I know intellectually what is actually going on.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Our sense of self is certainly a "living state". Our sense of self leaves us when we stop living, after all.
When I burn my finger I don't feel a pain in my heart. I feel a pain in my finger, and I'm likely to snatch it back from the hot stove and put it in my mouth or run it under a tap or something.
It's possible that a burnt finger could trigger some kind of heart attack, but I think that would be rare.
I don't have a sense of self in the heart area. If I think about where my "self" is at all, I think of it as being located in my brain, although obviously like almost everybody I have a strong sense that the various parts of my body are part of Me. (Interestingly, certain kinds of brain damage can make people lose the sense that their leg, say, belongs to them. They then regard it as a foreign object. It's quite strange.)
Before the advent of modern medicine (and certainly before we understood electricity very well), poets and writers and philosophers tended to locate the "soul" in the heart. The general view was that the brain had basically no function, although some thought it might be an organ for cooling the blood (not an unreasonable guess, seeing as we lose a LOT of heat through our heads).
It looks like maybe you've absorbed too much old poetry or old thinking and not enough 20th-century science. You're culturally conditioned to think that your "self" is located in your heart area. In contrast, I think of my "self" as being located mostly in my brain. But neither of us really has a localised sense of self. Like I said, we consider our entire bodies to be part of ourselves. Our consciousness feels distributed, even if it isn't.
You've really got to separate perception from fact. How things feel or look or sound or smell to you may not, at the bottom of things, be how they actually are. Humans regularly operate under all kinds of different illusions. That pain in my finger really does happen in my brain, not in the finger. What happens in the finger is just some stimulation of the nerve endings. But I will swear to you that burning my finger makes the finger hurt like hell, even though I know intellectually what is actually going on.
I'm not sure what you're asking. Our sense of self is certainly a "living state". Our sense of self leaves us when we stop living, after all.
Magical Realist:
I found another ghost photo. It's actually quite famous, having been reported in various publications around the world. I'd like your honest opinion on this one. It's quite a large scan, so you can see all the detail:
Ghost in fire photo
Here's the background to the photo:
It was taken by an amateur photographer. He was taking a photo of a fire engulfing a building in England in 1995. When the film was developed, as you can see there is an image of a young girl wearing clothes from a past era. She appears to be standing in the fire staring at the camera.
The photographer died a few years ago, and he always denied faking the photo.
Some local people have linked the photo to a young teenaged girl who accidentally set fire to the same building back in the 15th century. Maybe the girl in the photo is the ghost of that girl.
What do you think?
Could this one be a fake? Lots of people, including many journalists, have looked at the photo. Many newpapers and other publications have published it, along with the information above. Between the time it was taken and the death of the photographer, nobody proved the photo to be a fake.
So, what do you think?
I'd also like some opinions from other people in this thread who believe in ghosts. Is this photo real or fake, do you think? Or can you think of some other explanation that involves an innocent mistake, an illusion or something else?
I found another ghost photo. It's actually quite famous, having been reported in various publications around the world. I'd like your honest opinion on this one. It's quite a large scan, so you can see all the detail:
Ghost in fire photo
Here's the background to the photo:
It was taken by an amateur photographer. He was taking a photo of a fire engulfing a building in England in 1995. When the film was developed, as you can see there is an image of a young girl wearing clothes from a past era. She appears to be standing in the fire staring at the camera.
The photographer died a few years ago, and he always denied faking the photo.
Some local people have linked the photo to a young teenaged girl who accidentally set fire to the same building back in the 15th century. Maybe the girl in the photo is the ghost of that girl.
What do you think?
Could this one be a fake? Lots of people, including many journalists, have looked at the photo. Many newpapers and other publications have published it, along with the information above. Between the time it was taken and the death of the photographer, nobody proved the photo to be a fake.
So, what do you think?
I'd also like some opinions from other people in this thread who believe in ghosts. Is this photo real or fake, do you think? Or can you think of some other explanation that involves an innocent mistake, an illusion or something else?
though it's difficult to believe, i'll take your claim at face value though it's unusual for someone to not have a sense of self felt/lodged in the heart area. i never said the brain had nothing to do with it but it does seem to be affected as if it's like an living appendage all it's own.
perhaps you are 'different'. and no, i haven't absorbed any poetry or whatever you are referring to that would influence me to conclude such an idea. this has been my experience as well as with other people.
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Looks like a chick standing in the stairway, has anyone asked if it might be a real person instead of assuming ti'sa ghost lol. might just be a girl standing there.
Peace.
Peace.
birch:
How about we poll the members of sciforums on this?
"Where you feel that your 'self' is located? (a) In your heart area (b) in your head area (c) elsewhere in your body (d) all over your body (e) in space separate from your body (f) somewhere else"
You could start a new thread if you're interested. I don't think that in the brain will be an uncommon response.
How about we poll the members of sciforums on this?
"Where you feel that your 'self' is located? (a) In your heart area (b) in your head area (c) elsewhere in your body (d) all over your body (e) in space separate from your body (f) somewhere else"
You could start a new thread if you're interested. I don't think that in the brain will be an uncommon response.
of course because that would be the expected correct answer to them so they would check that.
that's hardly the same as someone honestly admitting that they feel or experience their sense of self mostly in the heart area.
This is interesting, but now you got me focusing my intention on particular body parts which is screwing up my natural state of being.
I think he is onto something with it being your chest area but now I keep switching my focus up and the point of intention keeps shifting due to my intense focus levels.
Im like a crappy test subject I think I have messed with my body too much and meditated for too long in the past. I can make parts of my body heat up and cool down by just focusing my will on it, and I can make parts of my body itchy aswell by doing the same type of thing.
I think im staying out of this test I would only mess up the results and complicate things lol
Peace.
Look closely, though. The building is on fire, and the girl is just standing there. Also, the clothes she is wearing don't look like 1995 clothes.
Do you think it might be a Jinn?
Not sure, looks like a normal girl to me but something does seem "off" about the whole picture It might just be a fake pic. Letme take another look/
PEace/
that picture was actually a hoax but not all of them may be. is that hard to believe?
birch:
Ok. How about a thread with the open question "Where do you feel your sense of self is located?"
EmptyForceOfChi:
That is interesting.
I think that if I really try to imagine my "self" as being in my heart, it's not hard to do that. But it's not that hard to shift your sense of self around your body.
I'm sure everybody has had the experience of doing something intensive with their hands, for example, and feeling as if their self is in their hands. Playing a musical instrument might be one example - people talk about having music in their hands. Or what about a painter or sculptor? Some people talk about being able to see the soul in people's eyes (including their own). And there is much talk of the "life force" in the "seed" or sperm of men (not so much about the ova of women, because their role in reproduction wasn't known for a long time).
I don't find it that hard to imagine myself a little outside my own body - kindof looking at myself from a distance. I could easily enough translate that to a belief in a separate "soul" - that's if I didn't know better. Imagination is one thing; fact is another.
Ok. How about a thread with the open question "Where do you feel your sense of self is located?"
EmptyForceOfChi:
That is interesting.
I think that if I really try to imagine my "self" as being in my heart, it's not hard to do that. But it's not that hard to shift your sense of self around your body.
I'm sure everybody has had the experience of doing something intensive with their hands, for example, and feeling as if their self is in their hands. Playing a musical instrument might be one example - people talk about having music in their hands. Or what about a painter or sculptor? Some people talk about being able to see the soul in people's eyes (including their own). And there is much talk of the "life force" in the "seed" or sperm of men (not so much about the ova of women, because their role in reproduction wasn't known for a long time).
I don't find it that hard to imagine myself a little outside my own body - kindof looking at myself from a distance. I could easily enough translate that to a belief in a separate "soul" - that's if I didn't know better. Imagination is one thing; fact is another.
Oh? How can you tell it was a hoax? It doesn't seem obvious to me from the photo.
It was actually sent to an official paranormal investigation society in the United States and they concluded it wasn't faked.
A photographic expert from a British university examined the original photo negative, too. He concluded that it was just an "ordinary black-and-white negative" that showed no signs of fakery. His opinion was that he was skeptical about the photo, but he couldn't say that it was faked.
Yeah, I don't find it difficult to shift my focus around I actualy used to use a certain meditation for this very reason to increase focus and will power. It's not that hard to do atall but it's actualy very annoying when you get the hang of it because you can begin to make parts of your body get itchy and then sometimes you start randomly getting itchy all over your body and it gets kind of yeah... annoying. I got so itchy once i felt like fleas were jumping all over my body and i had to jump up and start scratching everywhere.
By the way i was taking a closer look at that photograph and if you take a look above the girls head near her hair-line somethign just looks "Wrong" and also take a look below her knees it's like there's nothing there. Also her eyes seem very evil and menacing if you stare at them long enough you see some malice or something "not innocent" Im not sure what that picture is but I know that I don't like her lol she just seems evilt o me. i dont like her eyes atall.
peace.
it's not the same. your sense of 'self' is usually experienced in the heart area very keenly not anywhere else though of course you will have sensations in other areas of your body. you don't have a sense of self in your hands, for example, even though you are working with them. you also misinterpret the 'eyes are the window to the soul'. it doesn't mean the sense of self is in the eyes but that it is merely a window or clue as to the state of the heart/soul just as someone crying may mean they are sad.
no, it's not the same type of sensation. not when we are referring to a sense of identity or 'self' encompassing.
because they later found a pic from a postcard which had the same girl in the picture. whoever created this hoax used her image onto the building on fire.
an interesting one is the tulip staircase pic too.
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It is initialy in the chest yes but you can move it around at your own will. You can direct that focus into any other body part. try it it's easy.
Peace.
though i don't believe you can do that for what is being referred to, moving it around is hardly the point considering it's usual place is in the chest/heart area.
the sense of self is an identity not just a partial sensation.
Yeah I am refering to the sense of self, that strange feeling of erm how can i put it "Center" what feels like your "central spirit?" the chinese call it your shen which is different to your jing (essence).
Here is a technique i used to use to change its position. instead of trying to move your actual "central spirit" instead try to move the focus of your mind below your heart, you will feel a sinking kind of feeling and for a split second your center will actualy move and might make you feel a tad strange.
Keep trying until you can move it around for periods then you can begin doing other things once you master it a little.
Peace.
Oh yeah remember to close your eyes it's kind of hard to do it when your eyes are open because your eyes steal focus points and can be distracting.
Peace.
Peace.
what for? that's stupid. the issue is you have a sense of self. period