Why can't ghosts exist?

[phlogistician]

excuse me?? what i did point out is the hostility against the idea of a soul as if it was ridiculous. in the other thread you were blunt that everyone knows what cruelty is.

You compare the two as if it's a valid analogy. It isn't.

well, i can be blunt and tell you that most people do have a sense of soul as it being a living sense of self. it's not abstract to them but very real like a three-dimensional unseen being which is them and their body is a container

self awareness ≠ soul.

If you think otherwise, please offer a hypothesis, rather than an unsubstantiated claim.

If a soul in your mind is just self awareness, you've just traded terms, not established the existence of any paranormal entity. Just what are you blindly stabbing at?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Perhaps time traveling holograms from the future? Or maybe interdimensionals? Or perhaps thought forms of a collective cutural conscious? HELLO! All THAT falls under the paranormal! Welcome to the club bub.

Right. It also falls under "wild-ass guesses with no substantiation".
In order to support your ridiculous assertion you decide to introduce more woo wooisms?
How very scientific of you.

 

[Read-Only]

Right. It also falls under "wild-ass guesses with no substantiation".
In order to support your ridiculous assertion you decide to introduce more woo wooisms?
How very scientific of you.

Yeah. Despite his claims of wanting 'science' to take a look at it, apparently he wants REAL science to stay totally away! Why? Because it demolishes all the claims made by him and his group that WANT to believe in such nonsense.

Meanwhile, just as you say, he introduces even MORE fictitious stuff in an effort to explain an unexplainable and unsubstantial, illogical system of belief. What a sure-fire method of self-defeatism THAT is.

 

[Magical Realist]

Yeah. Despite his claims of wanting 'science' to take a look at it, apparently he wants REAL science to stay totally away! Why? Because it demolishes all the claims made by him and his group that WANT to believe in such nonsense.

Meanwhile, just as you say, he introduces even MORE fictitious stuff in an effort to explain an unexplainable and unsubstantial, illogical system of belief. What a sure-fire method of self-defeatism THAT is.

While you were studying all that science in college maybe you should've made time for at least a FEW reading/writing courses. NEWSFLASH: I was satirically mimicking what he'd have to offer other than saying ghosts are doing it. Surely you grasp the fine art of sarcasm. Or is that not scientific enough for you?

 

[James R]

Magical Realist:

Oh get off your high horse. I meant quit being anal about my statements. You are pretty much splitting hairs about things I say and offering not one valid explanation for these photos.

In the post immediately above this reply of yours, I offered an alternative explanation for one of your photos. Didn't you see it?

Face it..You simply cannot accept the existence of the paranormal as in ANYTHING unexplained in terms of conventional science.

I can accept it, if somebody provides at least some convincing evidence that the "paranormal" exists.

Like I said, I'm not here to persuade someone who's already made up their mind that the paranormal cannot in principle exist.

And I've clearly said, several times, that I have no in-principle objection to the paranormal. Just show me some convincing evidence!

You've made it totally clear that even if you CAN'T explain these pics away you STILL won't admit they could be paranormal.

I freely admit they could be paranormal. There's not a shred of decent evidence that they are paranormal.

Oh sure...MAYBE it's some phenomenon that isn't understood now but will be in the future. Perhaps time traveling holograms from the future? Or maybe interdimensionals? Or perhaps thought forms of a collective cutural conscious? HELLO! All THAT falls under the paranormal! Welcome to the club bub.

Here's an alternative theory of my own:

All the "ghosts" in your photos are not ghosts at all, but projections made by aliens in spaceship, broadcasting at Earth.

If I can't explain a figure in one of your photos, my default position from now on is that they must be aliens. That sounds fair enough, doesn't it? They're as likely to be alien projections as they are to be ghosts, so I'm opting for alien projections.

If you think the figures in your photos are ghosts rather than aliens, show me some evidence that supports your hypthesis over mine. I say they are aliens. Prove me wrong! Or at least tell me why you don't think they are alien projections. Can you rule out the alien projection hypothesis? To do so would seem to indicate that you've already made up your mind.

 

[Magical Realist]

Magical Realist:



In the post immediately above this reply of yours, I offered an alternative explanation for one of your photos. Didn't you see it?



I can accept it, if somebody provides at least some convincing evidence that the "paranormal" exists.



And I've clearly said, several times, that I have no in-principle objection to the paranormal. Just show me some convincing evidence!



I freely admit they could be paranormal. There's not a shred of decent evidence that they are paranormal.



Here's an alternative theory of my own:

All the "ghosts" in your photos are not ghosts at all, but projections made by aliens in spaceship, broadcasting at Earth.

If I can't explain a figure in one of your photos, my default position from now on is that they must be aliens. That sounds fair enough, doesn't it? They're as likely to be alien projections as they are to be ghosts, so I'm opting for alien projections.

If you think the figures in your photos are ghosts rather than aliens, show me some evidence that supports your hypthesis over mine. I say they are aliens. Prove me wrong! Or at least tell me why you don't think they are alien projections. Can you rule out the alien projection hypothesis? To do so would seem to indicate that you've already made up your mind.

Reread my posts in this thread. I've already mentioned the voluminous amounts of evidence for ghosts in paranormal investigations, EVP recordings, footage of apparitions, shadowfigures, and poltergeist phenomena, audio of footsteps in empty bldgs, people being touch and even scatched, unexplained lights and flashes, moving EMF fields, heat vision footage of half formed figures walking thru walls, slamming doors, sudden unexplained aromas, audible voices, etc etc and etc. All that AND photos of transparent forms of non-present and even non-living people. Now you come up with anything comparable for your alien theory and we'll talk. But till then I think we're done here.

 

[phlogistician]

Reread my posts in this thread. I've already mentioned the voluminous amounts of evidence for ghosts in paranormal investigations, EVP recordings, footage of apparitions, shadowfigures, and poltergeist phenomena, audio of footsteps in empty bldgs, people being touch and even scatched, unexplained lights and flashes, moving EMF fields, heat vision footage of half formed figures walking thru walls, slamming doors, sudden unexplained aromas, audible voices, etc etc and etc. All that AND photos of transparent forms of non-present and even non-living people.

Yeah, you've convolved a bunch of disparate and debunked trash to support your pre-conceived ideas.

Oh, and please stop using the word 'evidence'.

 

[Ophiolite]

Reread my posts in this thread. I've already mentioned the voluminous amounts of evidence for ghosts in paranormal investigations, EVP recordings, footage of apparitions, shadowfigures, and poltergeist phenomena, audio of footsteps in empty bldgs, people being touch and even scatched, unexplained lights and flashes, moving EMF fields, heat vision footage of half formed figures walking thru walls, slamming doors, sudden unexplained aromas, audible voices, etc etc and etc. All that AND photos of transparent forms of non-present and even non-living people. Now you come up with anything comparable for your alien theory and we'll talk. But till then I think we're done here.

James has already done so. There are voluminous amounts of evidence for alien projections in paranormal investigations, EVP recordings, footage of apparitions, shadowfigures, and poltergeist phenomena, audio of footsteps in empty bldgs, people being touch and even scratched, unexplained lights and flashes, moving EMF fields, heat vision footage of half formed figures walking thru walls, slamming doors, sudden unexplained aromas, audible voices, etc etc and etc. All that AND photos of transparent forms of non-present and even non-living people. All of these are simply the product of alien auditory and visual projections.

There is no distinguishing evidence to support the notion that they are departed spirits. There is substantial circumstantial evidence to believe that alien life exists and that some of it is intelligent. The apparent absence of such life forms from the solar system is readily explained by their desire to remain unknown. Thus Occam's razor favours us accepting the alien hypothesis (since their is sound logic to suspect their existence) over spirits.

 

[phlogistician]

LOL Ophiolite PWNS MR!

 

[Magical Realist]

James has already done so. There are voluminous amounts of evidence for alien projections in paranormal investigations, EVP recordings, footage of apparitions, shadowfigures, and poltergeist phenomena, audio of footsteps in empty bldgs, people being touch and even scratched, unexplained lights and flashes, moving EMF fields, heat vision footage of half formed figures walking thru walls, slamming doors, sudden unexplained aromas, audible voices, etc etc and etc. All that AND photos of transparent forms of non-present and even non-living people. All of these are simply the product of alien auditory and visual projections.

There is no distinguishing evidence to support the notion that they are departed spirits. There is substantial circumstantial evidence to believe that alien life exists and that some of it is intelligent. The apparent absence of such life forms from the solar system is readily explained by their desire to remain unknown. Thus Occam's razor favours us accepting the alien hypothesis (since their is sound logic to suspect their existence) over spirits.

Wow..so James finally concedes the validity of all the evidence for paranormal phenomena!!? Hallejuia!
He's finally come over to the dark side! Now..as I am certainly loose in my interpretation of WHAT a "ghost" is, as made clear in my post that they could be spacetime residues, departed intelligent souls, or psychic externalizations, maybe James would also do us the same favor with his "interpretation" of exactly WHAT is behind the phenomenon?


As far as them not being associated with the dead but with aliens instead, isn't it more parsimonious to just say that they ARE manifestations of the dead instead of contriving an elaborate hypothesis of them being holographic illusions of dead people generated by aliens for godnozwat reasons?

 

[Magical Realist]

LOL Ophiolite PWNS MR!

Do you ever offer anything of polemical substance yourself or do you just cheerlead from the sidelines for your favorite players?

 

[spidergoat]

I can make this kind of "evidence" all day long.

 

[John99]

I can make this kind of "evidence" all day long.

Well thats just it...and why i put in an earlier post that those old tricks and techniques with old film cameras and developing have been either forgotten about or people never explained how they did a "trick' to begin with. I know an 80 year old photographer and he knows photography, film, developing film like the back of his hand. Maybe i will email him those old images and i am fairly certain he will know how they were done or just call them all fakes\not supernatural.

http://www.ourcuriousworld.com/AnomolousSpiritPhotoPage.htm

Here is an interesting example:
http://www.ourcuriousworld.com/PDFs/WemGhostPhoto.pdf

 

[Magical Realist]

Well thats just it...and why i put in an earlier post that those old tricks and techniques with old film cameras and developing have been either forgotten about or people never explained how they did a "trick' to begin with. I know an 80 year old photographer and he knows photography, film, developing film like the back of his hand. Maybe i will email him those old images and i am fairly certain he will know how they were done or just call them all fakes\not supernatural.

http://www.ourcuriousworld.com/AnomolousSpiritPhotoPage.htm

Here is an interesting example:
http://www.ourcuriousworld.com/PDFs/WemGhostPhoto.pdf

It's interesting to me that those pics of possibly fake ghost photos comes from a website whose owner is a firm BELIEVER in ghosts and paranormal! Below is the OTHER page of what are in his opinion authentic ghost pics. This simply underscores the fact that paranormal investigators are some of the best debunkers of fraud and camera glitches there are. Once they debunk all that, then they can focus on the REAL evidence:

Favorite Ghost Photos
http://www.ourcuriousworld.com/FavGhostPXs.htm

 

[spidergoat]

"Authentic ghost photos" LOL

 

[Magical Realist]

My impression is that the shot shows a reflection in something like a shop window, at an angle that shows the girls but not their companion (in full). Or, it could be faked. Or there could be some other explanation. There's really no way to tell without more information.

I'm not seeing the window. And if the figure to the right is a mere reflection, then explain its opaque hand clutching the girl's arm. From what I've heard this pic was just an innocent cellphone pic two girls had a stranger take of them while in Manila and no other person was around at the time. Sure you can always say it's fake, but you should at least have some basis for suspecting fakery shouldn't you? I see none. They're just girls having fun while partying in Manila. I find accidental photos like this one, including the one my niece sent me, to be pretty convincing evidence.

 

[Magical Realist]

Who? On what basis could you be banned?

We don't generally ban people for holding particular views here. If you believe in ghosts, that's just fine. It won't stop people trying to explain why you might be wrong, but there's no reason you should be banned just for being wrong.

I don't know who it is nor the reason they proposed for my banning. I don't even know how one would find that info out. As you can see by my post count I'm pretty new here and so still have lot's to learn. I DID happen to notice a thread here in Free Thoughts posted by someone named Nicholas that was entitled "Let's sh%t all over Magical Realist etc". But alas I had already put that poster in my ignore jar and so didn't even read his post. There were a few other comments in his thread, including something by the moderator about such comments being self-defeating, but I just moved on. I'm doing the best I can to stay polite in here. If what I say provokes such hostility and insults from a poster then that probably says more about THEM than it does about me.

 

[Rhaedas]

I'm not seeing the window. And if the figure to the right is a mere reflection, then explain its opaque hand clutching the girl's arm. From what I've heard this pic was just an innocent cellphone pic two girls had a stranger take of them while in Manila and no other person was around at the time. Sure you can always say it's fake, but you should at least have some basis for suspecting fakery shouldn't you? I see none. They're just girls having fun while partying in Manila. I find accidental photos like this one, including the one my niece sent me, to be pretty convincing evidence.

The one problem with these random occurrences is that a lot of them are not repeatable. And without that, you've got a mysterious photo. But that isn't enough to conclude anything, any more than seeing a bright light in the night sky once can allow you to conclude anything more than you saw "something".

I'll admit there's some odd stuff out there that can be repeated, has been investigated, and we still aren't sure absolutely what is causing them. The Brown Mountain lights in western NC are a good example of this.

But not knowing their cause doesn't mean that they must be some paranormal activity from the undead. It means, we don't know yet what's causing them. It could be that they're some wandering souls...but you'd have to show why this is true, and that's going to take a lot more than just some photos and some speculation.

 

[C C]

Does their existence violate some law of science? Considering the fact that there are at present hundreds of paranormal societies popping up across the country recording video and audio evidence of ghosts (whatever they may be) why do you think they DON'T exist at least as real phenomena? Are people walking around abandoned bldgs at 3 AM just to create elaborate hoaxes or recording equipment glitches?

What do you mean by ghost? Any manifestation (like the content of perception, phenomenal consciousness, etc) might be considered a brute add-on that doesn't follow from an underlying framework where existence in general is assumed to be absent to itself. Is it dead spirits you refer to? I think both philosophical naturalism and methodological naturalism exclude the occult pre-conditionally. Kant would do the same, if the latter is wanderingly descended from him: Such noumenal or pre-conceptual possibilities cannot become empirical or testable denizens of the phenomenal world.

 

[Believe]

If you're a being made of some kind of energy, then perhaps lots of light energy interferes with your presence. I think these "horrid" ghost programs are excellent and provide convincing proof of the reality of the paranormal. Do you think they're all fake?

Seriously, how many people would watch those shows if all they did was stand around for a while and declare every single place they went to as a fake? Of course all those shows are faked.