To C20:
David F trusts that God made the Universe and everything in it including him.
And that is his right. Alas, it has nothing to do with 'evolution'. This is the point I have tried to express to him 50 times now. Evolution does not argue against the possibilty that a god, a leprechaun or a mothman started the ball rolling. What it does do, is explain what happened after the ball started rolling.
David has looked scientifically at the evidence of creation and evolution.
Unfortunately, David does not even understand what 'evolution' is and as such has not been looking at it 'scientifically', but using the ideals of an anti-evolutionist, and his personal opinion of what 'evolution' is. Further to which, David could not have been looking at creation 'scientifically', because 'creation' is not scientific.
David humbly accepts that the Universe is too well ordered and carries purpose that can only be atrributed to the First Mover.
Just something you need to be aware of: Humility does not = truth.
Now.. let's move on to me, shall we?
Snakelord has once in his life accepted Jesus as his saviour.
Actually you're wrong.
I was born to a family of differing religions. At an early age, due to the severe post natal depression my mother suffered, I was fostered, and then eventually adopted into a completely non-religious family. They weren't atheists, they just weren't religous. The best way to state it is that: They just didn't care or pay attention to any of it.
Where you would get the notion that I 'once accepted jesus', is beyond me, and most certainly without any validity whatsoever. Of course, this is the natural course of action for a fundamentalist christian, so I would expect nothing less.
I am not a former christian, not a former jew, not a former muslim, not a former anything.
Ok, I haven't checked my birth certificate which may state I was born a particular religion. However, that would be pointless anyway. Religious belief is not genetically inherited, and as such, every child is born with a 'clean slate'. While some will be rude enough to force beliefs onto a child that can't even speak, it has no bearing on what they actually would believe, given the choice.
But now finds that this was a little too much like having to accept that there is something greater than him out there even if that thing was a Jewish carpenter who rallied against everyone and had the most popular book written about him because of it.
Even though we've already established that you're wrong, I will continue responding to your claims and points, merely as a courtesy.
You state it's a little too much to claim theres something greater than me out there. This is simply ludicrous. I would not, and have not 'rejected' jesus because of ego, but because of lack of evidence. It is so simple, and yet nobody can even grasp the concept. This is made even more bizarre by the fact that they do the same when it comes to anything else. These very same people 'reject' other gods without even seeing the hypocrisy in claiming I shouldn't do the same they do, or indeed that I only do so because I think I'm cool.
Time and time again I give people the opportunity to give evidence for their beliefs, and then that person scurries off into the void, only to turn up a short while later and repeat the process.
The really bizarre thing is this:
I have spent a great deal of time working with people who claim to have been abducted, or met aliens, or even had sexual relations with aliens. I turn round and say: "Ok, can you provide any evidence to support your claim?"
These people then provide pictures, video, illustrations.. they ask to be hypnotized, and they do everything in their power to support the claims they make.
Even then, the mass majority do not believe a word they say. But either way, at least these people try. They provide as much as they can, and a lot more than "it's true because I say so". You guys can't even give the simple basics, and yet expect people to just fall at your feet in agreement. Frankly I find it perverse.
Snakelord cannot bear the thought that there might be someone who he must bow his head too especially this Jewish carpenter who apparently was killed for shooting his mouth off.
Again I can only state the worthlessness of such a thing without so much as a solitary droplet of evidence. Would you just bow to Lenny the Leprechaun? Of course not. Why not?
And so seeks to prove that God does not exist
This is a fallacious statement. I argue against the claims that are made, and am forced by sanity to conclude that until such time where evidence is presented, there is no choice but to assign the term 'fantasy' to the specific being. The same would be true of Odin and Zeus, and the reason would be no different than the reason you assign the term 'fantasy' to Odin and Zeus.
I would of course like to know how and why you would assign the word 'fantasy' to Odin and Zeus, but everytime I ask, people just vanish into the void once more.
because that would mean that he is the only thing that truly matters.
This is silly. My wife matters, my daughter matters, my dog matters, my cat matters, my pet goldfish matter, my mother matters, my father matters, my sisters matter, my brothers matter, my grandparents matter, my cousins, uncles, aunts, brother in laws, sister in laws matter. Etc etc etc.
No sin, no judgement, no burny hot lakes of fire because he didn't believe in someone who was killed for running his mouth off.
Not believing someone is what a book claims him to be because there's no evidence, does not instantly apply that sin and judgement are false. There is sin, and there is judgement via the courts, and the legal system.
He does this (proving God does not exist) by pointing to scientific claims which do seem at least to suggest that the book of Genesis is a lie.
Evolution is a fact. It doesn't matter what you say about it, it doesn't change that fact. It also does not extend itself to state that 'god does not exist', because that's not what evolution is. Using a faulty term for the word, doesn't mean it's right. The book of Genesis is in no way completely literal. Only a fool would think so. Especially given that it's little more than a copy of older Sumerian texts, that predate it by 1 and a half millennia.
Nobody can blame the writers, they lived in the times where next to nothing was known about the planet they lived on. This does not excuse you however.
If the book of Genesis is a lie then Jesus is a lie.
So that's what scares you? Earlier you were making claims about me and how I am 'afraid', when in reality it seems that you are. You cling to Genesis, not because of it's merits, but because if it's wrong, you're wrong. While this is typical for a generally weak individual, it doesn't make it true.
If Jesus is a lie then what more of sin and judgement and death which all sound rather nasty thank you very much.
I apologise, but I don't get exactly what you're saying.
Snakelord has accepted his imminent death and feels unanswerable to anyone
Imminent? No.
Answering to anyone, be it Odin or Lenny the Leprechaun, does not change the fact that I will die.
not needing to give account to anyone for his life on earth.
Perhaps I should write a biography?
Snakelord is essentially a 'good' man.
What kind of bollocks is this? You don't know me at all. You remind me of these twits that meet up with someone on the internet, only to find out that person's an axe murderer. As we have clearly seen, your statements concerning me have all been false up until now, so how much weight do you add to your "he's a good man" claim?
What answer's does Atheism have regarding justice.
This is the problem when your life is so bad you feel the absolute need for recompense. The easiest and most sound comment one could give you right now is: "Shit happens, get over it".
A terrible wrong has been done to C20, he has been deprived of his first child whom he loves with all of his being. What of that?
Like I said: Shit happens. If you don't like that answer, ask god to return them.
C20 has sought answers to the questions of justice and has found them in Jesus Christ. C20 has seen a man on a cross in his mind and seen him saying "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Which works out as little more than: Shit happens, get over it.
Jesus (of the Bible) knew that what was happening to him was a terrible thing.
I would have to state that anyone being crucified would consider it a 'terrible thing'. This feeling is not unique to jesus.
This character had only ever talked about God and how much he loved God and how he wished everyone loved God like he did. He trusted this God character so much that this character Jesus called God Father.
jesus never wrote anything, not even a word. You're not trusting jesus, you're trusting those who claimed that jesus said and did these things.
Now how may C20 know he isn't going mad?
I mean Spirits, God, Words blah blah all that mixed up with a little bit of acid and weed and you have a nut job right? Well because God is Who He is, he doesn't let C20 fall.
This is no different to saying "I'm not a nut because I say I'm not a nut". I hear it day in - day out. I hear it all day, every day. Am I supposed to just put complete "faith" in them as you expect me to do with you?
Snakelord calls both C20 and David F a liar.
Not at all, I debate the claims you make - and in the case of evolution, I point out when you give wrong definitions. This does not make anyone a liar, merely ignorant of the subject matter.
But while I will not call you a liar, you cannot ask any sane man to consider you truthful. It all depends upon the evidence, and as of yet - there is none. Even if you were eventually shown as being completely wrong, I wouldn't call you a liar. Again, it is ignorance, not lying.
Snakelord to them is like a man sticking out a foot as the waiter carries a tray of food because Snakelord knows exactly what it is to fall over after having believed and does not believe God picked him up again.
You're not "lying", you're just wrong. As explained earlier, I have never had a belief in any being - from Gilgamesh to Jesus, Yhwh to Odin.
Snakelord however fears punishment for falling.
From who? You already acknowledge that I don't believe in any being whatsoever, and as such there is no-one to hand out punishment, and even if it turned out that there was, one could question what kind of nutjob would hand out punishment because someone "falls". However, seeings as there isn't, it is of no worth.
Pardon... what?