David F.: While creation cannot be proved, neither can evolution.
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M*W: I believe creation has long been proven as factual as has evolution. We don't have archeologists for nothing. Therefore, creation and evolution have both be proven. I believe creation came about randomly by the very evolution of the Big Bang -- not by any creator god. We are still evoling in the continuing ripple of the Big Bang.
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David F.: As long as you don't label Genesis as "false" then you are still fine with the rest of the bible.
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M*W: Genesis as well as the rest of the bible was written in symbolic language. There was no man named Adam nor was their a woman named Eve. Adam represents the Earth and Eve represents the living people and things on the Earth as well as wisdom. Eve and the Serpent are one and the same. The Serpent represents wisdom, too. There wasn't a real snake in Eden.
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David F.: The OT is a book of books by various authors which proports to show the history of the Israelite people (sometimes called the Jews, although the word Jew really refers just to the tribe of Judah, but after the Babylonian exile, it became an all-inclusive word referring to the entire Israelite people).
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M*W: Shall we call the bible a 'bibliography?' IF Moses wrote the Pentateuch books, he would have had to have written them down in Egypt. He was born there and he died there. Moses was never an Israelite nor a Jew.
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David F.: It is only in the last few decades that some, whose goal is to discredit the scriptures, have started questioning the authorship of the bible books. Should they be believed? Well, I have checked out the arguments and have found them extremely wanting (absurd) but then you would have to believe me.
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M*W: Even before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947, there have been many biblical researchers and archeologists who have questioned the authenticity of the bible. Why shouldn't they be believed? I cannot believe you've checked out the arguments and found them to be absurd! That is, unless you only the works Christian authors! That tends to be the trend among christians who block every non-Christian writer out of their awareness. Name some non-Jew and non-christian biblical researchers and anthropologists whom you've read but still don't believe them to be true.
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David F.: Those who wrote the books believed and those to whom they were passed believed, and those who became caretakers thereafter believed. It is only now, more than 3000 years after the fact, that someone is questioning authorship. How would someone 3000 years later have any idea who wrote the books? If I must choose between the bible and some three-thousand year removed hecklers, which should I believe? Either way, I must believe one or the other.
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M*W: David, sadly you are incorrect. Take Moses -- he allegedly wrote the Pentateuch, although some scholars can prove he didn't. Until I am convinced otherwise, I will continue to believe that Moses wrote it. The question here is what was Moses' motivation to write it? It was his fanatical belief that the Sun-Aten-God. It's that simple. He wanted his people, all of Egypt, to believe that the sun was god. When Moses went upon the mountain tops to pray, as did believers in his day and later, he prayed to the sun and no other natural or supernatural entity. He wrote the Ten Commandments, not the sun. He wrote them to keep control of his sojourners in the Sinai desert. Moses saw himself as the Son of the Sun. That's why he gave himself the name/title Akhen-Aten, which means sun worshipper. The original Pentateuch was written in Egyptian language of the day -- not in Hebrew. The Pentateuch was translated from Egyptian into Hebrew, probably by one of the Habiru who made it over to the Promised Land, although these folks were uneducated shepherds. So translating the Egyptian writings into Hebrew, and the Hebrew version into English, has lost much from the original Egyptian. Even the first translator of the Pentateuch probably made many errors. Some things are believed on faith but more is believed by science. The god of the OT, Moses believed, was himself. Further, Moses wasn't the ORIGINAL penman. The Pentateuch was copied from a much earlier civilization -- the Sumerians.
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David F.: The NT is a compilation of writings made by some first century Christians, not necessarily all who were disciples of Christ. The writings were gathered into a book by a set of church elite, led by a sun-god worshipper who only took on the guise of Christianity because it was convinient. However, despite this non-auspicious beginning, the NT has still proved to be true.
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M*W: The birth of the NT books were written late in the first century, and Paul's epistles were written before the gospels. Matthew, Mark and Luke never knew Jesus. All they had read about Jesus was what Paul had written, and Paul never knew Jesus. It seems strange to me how all these people who didn't know Jesus wrote about him. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by people who did know Jesus personally. The church 'doctors' probably had them hidden because they made references to Jesus and MM being intimate. In what way do you think the 'NT has still proved to be true?' Christians WANT to believe the NT is true so they can perpetuate their religious addiction!
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David F.: I too am sceptical of the NT. I am much more likely to believe the witnesses of those who were there (the disciples who wrote the gospels) than the writings of a murderer from the camp of the Pharisees who only later saw the light and changed his evil ways (Paul).
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M*W: You say you're 'sceptical of the NT,' but you believe the 'witnesses' who were 'there.' John was the only gospel writer who knew Jesus personally. There are several biblical scholars/linguists who now believe MM wrote the Gospel of John and Revelations under the name 'John.' You're smart to not believe what Paul wrote. Paul never knew Jesus. His epistles were written at least about 50 years after Jesus' death. In fact, it's very possible that Paul made the myth of Jesus up, and there was no such person. The greatest accomplishment of Jesus was him becoming a rabbi. The name Saul/Paul in Aramaic means 'deceiver.'
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David F.: However, when I read Paul's writings carefully and ignore the misreadings and obvious distortions attributed to him throughout the centuries, I find that Paul too, preaches the gospel of Christ - amazing but true.
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M*W: No, this is not amazing but true! Paul had a bad reputation as a liar, thief and murderer. He was also epileptic and was known to have seizures. That's why he saw a bright light and heard the voice of whom he thought was god after falling off his horse. I will give Paul credit for being a learned man who created some interesting characters in his writings, but that's all they were -- characters -- maybe even Jesus.
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David F.: Shall I trust those who try to malign the disciples but keep the corrupted teachings of the murderer-turned-Christian? I think not. I find it safer to reject the modern distorters and retain the ancient original. But, then again, that is what I believe. You must make up your own mind.
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M*W: Paul wrote most of the NT and what he didn't personally write, he coerced Matthew, Mark and Luke, and the precisely few others who may have contributed to his-Paul's message. Everything you read in the NT about Jesus said this, Jesus said that, are Paul's words -- not Jesus' words -- the Lord's Prayer, Beatitudes, etc..
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David F.: Peoples over many times and in many centuries have asked this question - does the bible apply to me and to my time? Amazingly, the eventual answer has always been - YES. Cultures go in cycles (even the old Jewish culture) and always seem to end up back to the bible original. Our's just hasn't gone full circle yet. In the end, we must retain the scriptures in total.
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M*W: If what you say is true, cultures come and go, but people always come back to believing the bible applies to those in their times, I just don't think this is logical reasoning. If what you state as truth, then the only religion we would have would be Judaism and Christianity. Obviously, the Bible doesn't hold any truth to 75% of the world's population, and christianity is dying fast worldwide. Why do you think? Retaining the scriptures in total would mean that the Dead Sea Scrolls, the gospels hidden in the Vatican, plus the many other writings the Church suppressed -- this is what I call 'total.'
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David F.: No matter what society tells you or the intellectualists tell you, you will some day be made to answer for your actions. It has always been a matter of personal preference, but there will come a time when God will judge and you (and I) will be held accountable for our decisions. Just because some have fallen into error and desire to drag you down with them, does not excuse you. You must make a decision.
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M*W: David, you sound a lot like c20. It amazes me how some christians come onto a site like sciforums Religion forum and preach to those of us who couldn't care less about any assumed god or dying demigod savior. There are many christian forums out there in cyberspace, and you would be among believers like yourself. I was an ex-christian when I came to sciforums, but I still believed in a creator god. Thanks to sciforums religion forum, not only have I become an anti-christian, because of fanatical christians like you, but I've have also happily become an atheist. One day the light bulb went on in my head, and I saw the light. No god will judge us, we are responsible to ourselves and all of humanity for our actions. If you feel as if you're being 'dragged down' by sciforums religion forum, I suggest you move to another forum or join a christian web site. You knew when you came here that this wasn't a christian forum, and those of us who use logical reasoning will continue to drag you down. I'm not trying to run you off, because I believe you are an intelligent man, and your knowledge of Hebrew is especially helpful. I told you my story on this forum, and if you have any doubts about christianity, this is definitely the place for you to be. If you're worried about losing your faith like I did, then you should protect your circular beliefs and go elsewhere.
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David F.: Atheists like to use the patience and long-suffering of God as proof of His absense or demise. Just because God does not jump when an Atheist snaps his fingers, does not proclaim his existance or lack thereof. God is the master, not the servant. Atheists too - especially those on this forum who know the truth (it seems most of the Atheists on the forum are fallen Christians) - must make a choice and must eventually account for their actions.
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M*W: Your first statement is just not true. This is not what atheists do. When one gives power and glory to some unknown creator godly being, he has a masochistic personality. Atheists let go of the 'fear' of God to the point of not believing in a god exists. We are certainly more content to give up that childish brainwashing. Yes, it IS brainwashing. An atheist doesn't snap his or her fingers and expect God to jump. There would be no reason for an atheist to even snap his fingers at all except to call his dog. The choice I've made to disbelieve in any god or dying demigod savior serves me well. I'm a happy and loving person. I smile at everyone I pass by and I speak if I'm able. I see strangers all the time. When I see them the second time, they remember me and smile or speak first. This is my nature. I love people. I love humanity. I have created myself, even though my parents did the work to have me and surely went through hell when I was a rebellious teenager. Back in those days we all said about The Establishment, "Don't trust anyone over 30." How fast 30 has come and gone, but life goes on. My parents weren't religious people. My dad never believed in god even when he was a Navy Seal in the oceans around Japan in WWII. I can guarantee you that he was responsible for his own actions. There was no god in those undersea mines he diffused.
I stopped being the rebellious hippie that I was growing up in the 60s, and I became a rebellious adult who found 'religion' in the form of Roman Catholicism. I did this mainly to rear my kids in a religious environment. My husband was Roman Catholic, but I dumped him in Germany in 1978. He's since become a holy roller, like I care. He's insane. What does that tell you? There are so many religously believing people locked up in nuthouses all over the world! He should be there, too.
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David F.: The Atheist line is: Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.
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M*W: This is not an atheist line. I've heard this all of my life even when I was a christian. It applies to everybody, especially liars. That's how christianity perpetuated -- lies that people continue to believe! Liars, and the people who believe them, are pathetic losers. I took instructions to become a Roman Catholic, and I was more zealous than those who were raised as one. I taught catechism for a number of years, and I had convinced myself it was all truth. Now I'm spending the rest of my life finding out what the truth really was, because it's NOT in the bible.
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David F.: Why believe? That is a choice - a personal preference. If nothing else, believe because the bible has not been proved false.
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M*W: Yes, it is a choice, and I've made mine. I'm sorry to tell you that the bible has long been proven false. Christianity forces you to believe in the bible. Therefore, that makes christianity false. Don't be afraid to seek the truth, and don't fight with your conscience for doing so. The more you dedicate your life to some dying demigod savior, the less you have for yourself. This is the only life you've got. Don't smother it with religion. Believe in yourself as the only god there is.
