Why aren't christians jewish?

[Dragon_Lady]

Has Medicine Woman admitted yet, that the book about Jesus escaping to France was 'The Da Vinci Code'?

 

[Silas]

I doubt MW was really hoping to conceal the fact that many of her recent ideas have come from last years biggest publishing phenomenon.

Then how did the Jews come to expect a Messiah, or were they deluded too?

Well, yes they were. And then so were Christians. Those sections in Isaiah 7, 8 and 9 which refer to a child being born:

Is. 7
14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a [virgin]* shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

*Heb. almah - young woman, unmarried or poss. newly-wed. LXX: virgin

Here, Isaiah uses the forthcoming birth of a child (either his own or Ahaz's, authorities differ) to illustrate to Ahaz, King of Judah, that the Lord intends to remove the two contending Kings he faces, referenced in verse 1: 1.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.​

Then he repeats this image again later on, but this time the child definitely appears to be his:

Is. 8
1. Moreover the LORD said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man's pen concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
2. And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.
3. And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
4. For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.​

Again, clearly not a Messianic prophecy - this child is actually in "the prophetess's" womb (and here it is evident that it is Isaiah's own child he is talking about) and the events predicted are going to come about before the child can talk, consequently in the next two years at most.

Is. 9
6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
8. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
9. And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,
10. The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
11. Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together;
12. The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.​

Verse 6 is probably an hagiography for Ahaz's new son Hezekiah, and verse 7 proclaims the continuance of the throne of David. Since Ahaz faces enemies on all sides and this whole section deals with Isaiah's advice (in the form of prophecy) on how to handle it, Isaiah is basically painting a good picture of what will happen if that advice is taken (which is basically, leave it in God's hands and don't join Rezin and Pekah in battle - they will be defeated in their turn by their other enemies).

Isaiah actually gives practical advice in common sense terms. However, the first mistake that was made was when the Septuagint appeared, the Greek translation that was made around 100BCE, the Hebrew almah, or young woman, became "virgin" - which of course indicated not a practical, common sense event but a miracle.

I finally found the reference to almah in Strong's Lexicon, and I'm interested in the note at the bottom.
http://unbound.biola.edu/index.cfm?...lang=hebrew&search_type=entry&entry_word=עלמה

Definition:
1) virgin, young woman
1a) of marriageable age
1b) maid or newly married
++++
There is no instance where it can be proved that this word
designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT)​

Doctrinal nonsense, of course, because in the absence of a post-Christian miraculous interpretation, the phrase "Behold, an [almah] shall conceive and bear a child." is the very proof they deny. As far as I or any rational person would be concerned, that single phrase in the bible is proof enough that the word does not remotely refer to a virgin at that point. If you think of the word meaning "marriageable girl" or "about to be married girl", then of course she could be a virgin - but there is no implication that she will remain one in the course of conception. A girl on the point of being marriage (a virgin now, of course) will conceive a child - and where's the miracle in that?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Dragon_Lady: Has Medicine Woman admitted yet, that the book about Jesus escaping to France was 'The Da Vinci Code'?
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M*W: Where have you been, Dragon_Lady? Not only did I not like Dan Brown's NOVEL, The Da Vinci Code, it was FICTION! Further, I have stated such on this forum. However, there are tons of other well-referenced books that are more creditable than The Da Vinci Code. If a book doesn't have an index and bibliography, it's not worth reading. For your reference, I've already posted this bibliography several times now regarding the French connection. The Internet is rife with websites on this theory. So if you want to get all that fictitious stuff out of your head, you can peruse my previous posts, and you just may learn something.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Silas: I doubt MW was really hoping to conceal the fact that many of her recent ideas have come from last years biggest publishing phenomenon.
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M*W: Silas, you posted a very informative answer here, and I hope once and for all these people will understand what a "virgin" and "almah" means.

BTW: I just posted an answer to Dragon_Lady's comment about my beliefs coming from Dan Brown's, The Da Vinci Code, but I wanted to let you know that I've been studying the French connection for about 20 years now -- long before Dan Brown became a household name.

 

[Silas]

M*W - I didn't actually mean what I said about you - I got too wrapped up the rest of that post to go back and rewrite it in a less judgemental manner, because I had no idea whether you got your ideas from DVC or not. I'm glad someone else agrees with me that regardless of the rights and wrongs of the theory, it's a crap novel.

 

[Dragon_Lady]

M*W - I didn't actually mean what I said about you - I got too wrapped up the rest of that post to go back and rewrite it in a less judgemental manner, because I had no idea whether you got your ideas from DVC or not. I'm glad someone else agrees with me that regardless of the rights and wrongs of the theory, it's a crap novel.

Are you really MW Silas? Or just the founding member of her fan club?

MW/Silas You kept raving about 'the book', but never naming your source. I defy you to show me 'tons of stuff' on this subject, or you could simply admit you made that up. Give me the link to your bibliography and I will believe you named 'the book' previously.
I think 1 or 2 of your posts will sufice for learning what you are about MW/Silas. I doubt I could learn from you, as your hatred clouds everything you do and say and I don't want to live like that...plus you will believe anything that fits within your dogma and I prefer an open mind.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Dragon_Lady: Are you really MW Silas? Or just the founding member of her fan club?

MW/Silas You kept raving about 'the book', but never naming your source.
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M*W: You were the one who brought up the book. I made my opinion about it perfectly clear. I don't see how you thought I was "raving" about it!
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Dragon_Lady: I defy you to show me 'tons of stuff' on this subject, or you could simply admit you made that up. Give me the link to your bibliography and I will believe you named 'the book' previously.
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M*W: I have listed my bibliography several times on sciforums long before publication of the DVC, and I'm not going to list it again for your sake! I don't give a rat's ass what you think about me or the DVC. If you don't have the time to go back and look up my previous posts where the bibliography is posted, I don't have the time to list that bibliography everytime some new fuckhead joins sciforums.
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Dragon_Lady: I think 1 or 2 of your posts will sufice for learning what you are about MW/Silas. I doubt I could learn from you, as your hatred clouds everything you do and say and I don't want to live like that...plus you will believe anything that fits within your dogma and I prefer an open mind.
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M*W: Go back and read my previous posts if you want to see what I've written. I doubt you could learn from me, too. I'm an atheist. I don't have a dogma. And you definitely DON'T have an open mind!

 

[Silas]

Wow. Never got mistaken for someone else before!

I think we all know Medicine Woman around here as a strong minded character - why on earth would she use an alter-ego? Incidentally, M*W and I do not see eye to eye on many issues, I was just apologising for being a bit presumptuous about her.

This is actually for my personal reference, too. The bibliography is here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=717507#post717507

 

[The Devil Inside]

actually, the word in the torah is: na'arah

literally, it means "a young girl"

 

[Jenyar]

Well, yes they were. And then so were Christians. Those sections in Isaiah 7, 8 and 9 which refer to a child being born

Do you really think that obscure reference is the only place the Jews found inspiration for their messianic expectation? I remind you of the twelfth article of Maimonides"

12. I firmly believe in the coming of the Messiah; and although He may tarry, I daily hope for His coming.​

Does this fundamental belief rest on whether a young woman is a virgin or not?
According to Maimonides he that rejects any of these articles is an unbeliever, and places himself outside of the Jewish community.

 

[Silas]

Jenyar, the sciforums crappy quote system strikes again!

You wrote:

Well, yes they were. And then so were Christians. Those sections in Isaiah 7, 8 and 9 which refer to a child being born

Do you really think that obscure reference is the only place the Jews found inspiration for their messianic expectation? I remind you of the twelfth article of Maimonides

But in fact the conversation went like this (leaving out your last response):

Nowhere in Isaiah does it mention, allude, foretell or insinuate anything about Jesus.

Then how did the Jews come to expect a Messiah, or were they deluded too?

Well, yes they were. And then so were Christians. Those sections in Isaiah 7, 8 and 9 which refer to a child being born...

So the "obscure reference" - which by the way is about the least obscure reference to Messianic prophecy in the entire Bible, is in fact what the whole conversation was about - ie those purported Messianic sections of Isaiah supposed to foretell Jesus. (Although I cannot actually find the original quote which you were answering.)

I've no doubt you're better versed in Jewish thought than I am, and I've no doubt that there could be hundreds of citations in the Bible later claimed as Messianic prophecy, quite apart from those which were actually written as such. The Messiah promise is certainly a bedrock of Jewish faith, of course I'm not denying that it is. But that does not mean that the Jews were any less deluded about the coming Messiah than the Christians have been.

To answer the original topic's question, the reason that Christians are not Jews is that in the first instance, apart from Jesus's immediate disciples the Apostles, Jews by and large did not want to be Christians. Jewish Messianic expectations in the first centures BCE and CE were tied to the concept of freedom from subjugation. Under the Maccabees, "Babylon" was re-interpreted as "The Seleucid Empire". Two centuries later, Babylon was Rome, of course. In the middle of this came a man who preached a totally new way of looking at God - a man whom his disciples said was the promised Messiah. But the Sanhedrin arrested and indicted him, the Romans tried and executed him. Those Jews who might have been inclined perhaps to see this Yeshua bar-Yusuf as the promised Anointed of the Lord - the new King who would cleanse the borders of the Holy Land of the Infidel, were instantly disillusioned. Gentiles however, with no previous expectations of a messiah-figure, could become much more easily engaged with the idea of this great and wise man who suffered and died to bring God to everybody - and who would return - flocked to Christianity in droves.

So, Jews aren't Christian because the Jews already had Messianic expectations which Jesus disappointed; non Jews became Christian because they had no concept of a Messiah in the first place and were provided with one ready made, who had come and was expected to come again. The Jews would see that whatever the Messiah would be, he wasn't Jesus, and the non-Jews see Jesus as the only Messiah of the past and of the future.

 

[Silas]

Do you really think that obscure reference is the only place the Jews found inspiration for their messianic expectation? I remind you of the twelfth article of Maimonides

12. I firmly believe in the coming of the Messiah; and although He may tarry, I daily hope for His coming.​

Does this fundamental belief rest on whether a young woman is a virgin or not?

Let's pretend that I wasn't answering your specific response to someone else's reference to Isaiah 7:14 - no, I do not think that Jewish Messianic expectations by and large derive from Isaiah 7:14. In fact, I had thought that it was purely a later Christian idea altogether until I realised that is not a later Christian theological thesis - it's right there in the Gospel according to Matthew! Matthew was obviously Jewish (as Luke, for example, just as obviously was not) and larded his account with copious references to "scripture" or the Old Testament as Christians now call it. Working with a story (who knows where that came from?) that Jesus's mother had conceived whilst still a virgin, Matthew found a line of scripture that matched such a miraculous occurrence, despite the fact that no miraculous reading is necessary in the original context at all. Matthew used this line to prove that Jesus was the Messiah promised to the Jews. But no, I don't think Jews expected that the Messiah need be born of a virgin. It's merely illustrative of the abilities of the Jews to find interpretations in scripture to match whatever Messiah-figure they may come across. John the Baptist was thought of by some as the Messiah, and I've no doubt scripture which could be made specific to him could well be found. He himself quoted scripture to prove that he was not the Messiah (John 1). Other messiah figures came later (there's one in particular ref: Josephus and Tacitus, but can't remember his name) and no doubt scripture was found to confirm his status, too.

 

[spidergoat]

Has Medicine Woman admitted yet, that the book about Jesus escaping to France was 'The Da Vinci Code'?

Wow, you resurrected this thread from the dead like Jesus!

My Grandfather was into the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", which came out in 1983, and talks about Jesus escaping to France.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

spidergoat: Wow, you resurrected this thread from the dead like Jesus!

My Grandfather was into the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", which came out in 1983, and talks about Jesus escaping to France.
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M*W: Yup! That was the book I found when I was grieving through the process of breaking away from the evil addiction.