Why aren't christians jewish?

[Quigly]

I'm not Muslim, and therefore I cannot quote the Qur'an, but Ishmael was the firstborn son of Abraham and the chosen one. Why is it you Xians always pick and choose what you want to believe rather than what is true?

So now you are an expert on the Quaran and the Bible huh. Christians, not Xians, believe that Ishmael was the firstborn, but was not he chosen. Issac, was the chosen one. Read the Bible. The bible says plainly throughout it that Issac was the chosen son and the promised son. Not all firstborns inherit. Look at Esau and Jacob.

We all evolved

Prove it. It has only been speculated and proposed to be that way, but never definite proof.

There is nothing to be saved from, and Jesus was no savior. This is the message HE tried to leave, but it got bastardized by Paul and his band of spiritual thieves. If you're alive right now, you've already attained "salvation." Go figure.

Can't leave insulting Paul out of one thread. It is funny that you have bitterness toward somebody that you have no proof was a conspirator. Neither do you have proof of what you propose Jesus meant. Do you regularly hate people based on assumptions M.W.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus
People do different things to set them apart from God. For example, muslims and Jews don't eat pork because it sets them apart and it's somewhat unhealthy. This seems to be another irrational attack from M*W. Well yes, I am circumcised and my cousins are Jewish. The Jews were chosen, not so that they would all be saved, but so that they would spread the good news and the wisdom of God. This has been God's plan since Abraham through which God said that all nations would bless his name.

What did I ever say was wrong with eating pork? To you, I may be "irrational" because I don't believe in the fairy tales you believe in. To others who believe in the One Spirit of God may think of me as a spiritual leader. The only thing you know about me is that I post on sciforums as an anti-Xian. You don't have a clue as to what I do in my life.

Have you even read Isaiah? Isn't the entire exodus a story of salvation?

The story you refer to in Isaiah has been picked and chosen by Xians to enhance their belief of the coming messiah. This is entirely not true. I have recently read about this mistake, and when I have time to find it again, I'll quote the source.

<i>The "early church" didn't exist until 325 AD.</i> Well you can find earlier documents than 325AD at www.ccel.org Most people use the term early church to mean the church before the council of Nicea(325AD).

Besides Paul's biased myths and the gospels that Paul commissioned, what else exists that could possibly be truthful?

Jesus said that what enters your stomach does not defile you. If what enters your stomach doesn't then neither does what you wear. So the dietary laws of the Torah have been rejected but this not to say that individuals will not find value in fasting. And there are common sense restrictions on what people should wear.

Now how do you really know Jesus said these things? Oh, your Bible has everything Jesus said in red. Yeah, right, I... I... don't know why I would believe it!

[QUOTE Then what's with all the attacks on Paul for? You don't really know Paul, talked with him or read all of his books but you seem to dislike him. [/QUOTE]

Paul invented Xianity. I know Paul about as the same as you know Paul, but I know the truth, and you don't believe it. I don't care to read lies. Xianity is Paul's religion, not Jesus's. As a matter of fact, I know Jesus better than you and your compadre's do.

 

[okinrus]

What did I ever say was wrong with eating pork? To you, I may be "irrational" because I don't believe in the fairy tales you believe in. To others who believe in the One Spirit of God may think of me as a spiritual leader. The only thing you know about me is that I post on sciforums as an anti-Xian. You don't have a clue as to what I do in my life.

I didn't call you irrational. Unlike you, I don't try to judge someone from 200 pages or so of what they've written. All I said this was an irrational attempt by you to discredit someone who you do not know. I've already asked you to back up your stories with primary sources. If you cannot not do this, then I will treat you as you treat Paul.

The story you refer to in Isaiah has been picked and chosen by Xians to enhance their belief of the coming messiah. This is entirely not true. I have recently read about this mistake, and when I have time to find it again, I'll quote the source.

The theme of salvation is quite apparent to anyone who has read Isaiah. The mistake you speaking about is that the Setpuagint(100 or so years before Christ) translated hebrew word for a young women into the greek word for virgin. This has nothing to do with the theme of Isaiah or Isaiah 53.

Besides Paul's biased myths and the gospels that Paul commissioned, what else exists that could possibly be truthful?

There are extra-bibical sources such as Justin, Origen, Ignatius, Polycarp and others. You even have the non-christian writer Josephus. We also have the catacombs and other sites that testify to a christian presence well before 325AD. In reality, the council of Nicea was the meeting of large collection of bishops from different areas. We already know by this time that the structure of the bishops and practice was made informally by the apostles and church fathers.

Now how do you really know Jesus said these things? Oh, your Bible has everything Jesus said in red. Yeah, right, I... I... don't know why I would believe it!

Why wouldn't he have?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Here's the quote about Isaiah I promised:

Isaiah, being a rabbi told his students, who became future rabbis just what he was writing about. Christians have the chutzpah saying that Isaiah was wrong.

Our rabbis today explain just what Isaiah meant when he wrote the 53rd chapter. Christians today are telling us that our rabbis are wrong and they are right – that Isaiah was prophesying about Jesus, not about the Jewish people who through out history were God’s Suffering Servant.

~ from Christianity-Revealed on the Internet

I didn't call you irrational.

Yes you did!

Unlike you, I don't try to judge someone from 200 pages or so of what they've written.

Come on, okinrus, you've judged me all over this forum. Don't try to pretend your the kind little Xian who is so god-like. You're an immature kid who believes in fairy tales! Grow UP!

All I said this was an irrational attempt by you to discredit someone who you do not know.

If you mean jcarl, you are wrong. I don't know jcarl. My aim is to discredit Xianity and help make you Xians aware of the truth. As far as you and jcarl are concerned, well, I... I... love you... yeah, yeah, that's right... that's the ticket... I love you! (choke)(puke)(piss all over myself ala The Exorcist)

I've already asked you to back up your stories with primary sources. If you cannot not do this, then I will treat you as you treat Paul.

I've cut and pasted, but you obviously didn't read my quotes. Honestly, okinrus, you can find enough proof all over the Internet, you just choose not to and to go on believing in fairy tales. (Do you still put your teeth under the pillow for the tooth fairy?)

The theme of salvation is quite apparent to anyone who has read Isaiah.

Read my cut and pasted quote above from the horse's mouth.

The mistake you speaking about is that the Setpuagint(100 or so years before Christ) translated hebrew word for a young women into the greek word for virgin. This has nothing to do with the theme of Isaiah or Isaiah 53.

Wrong, again, my Catholic friend!

There are extra-bibical sources such as Justin, Origen, Ignatius, Polycarp and others. You even have the non-christian writer Josephus.

They wrote what they had heard, not what they had seen. They propagated the myth of the fairy tale. Either they knew full well they were lying, or they wrote it blindly. Who Josephus was and/or
what pen name he and/or Paul wrote under is still in question.

We also have the catacombs and other sites that testify to a christian presence well before 325AD.

Been there, done that, bought the postcard. Yeah, sure, there was a Xian "presence" before Nicaea, but the dogma wasn't written until then. What if, just what if, Xianity was all man-made? (Pause here, okinrus, and think about it).

In reality, the council of Nicea was the meeting of large collection of bishops from different areas. We already know by this time that the structure of the bishops and practice was made informally by the apostles and church fathers.

You mean "dead" apostles? They weren't around in 325 AD!

Why wouldn't he have?

Remember, okinrus, xianity was all MAN-MADE long after Jesus retired in France.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Remember, okinrus, xianity was all MAN-MADE long after Jesus retired in France.

Off your medicines again I see.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Isaiah, being a rabbi ...

Please show me a single rabbinic authority who classifies Isaiah as a rabbi.

 

[okinrus]

Isaiah, being a rabbi told his students, who became future rabbis just what he was writing about. Christians have the chutzpah saying that Isaiah was wrong.

Our rabbis today explain just what Isaiah meant when he wrote the 53rd chapter. Christians today are telling us that our rabbis are wrong and they are right – that Isaiah was prophesying about Jesus, not about the Jewish people who through out history were God’s Suffering Servant.

While Isaiah could have told his disciples what he really meant, why wouldn't he put what he really meant into the writing itself? Nevertheless, by the time of Christ Jews had already written the book of Enoch which has an even stronger Messianic outlook than Issaiah. The most well trained Jews of their own law the Pharisees believed in the coming of the Messiah. It is only latter, when Jews realized that spreading of christiantiy that other interpretations were given.

<i>Yes you did!</i>
Well maybe that's a complement... http://www.ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/orthodoxy.all.html#v

Come on, okinrus, you've judged me all over this forum. Don't try to pretend your the kind little Xian who is so god-like. You're an immature kid who believes in fairy tales! Grow UP!

What does producing sources for what you say have to with God. If you can't even prove to me that your not lying then how are you going to prove that Paul is not lieing.

If you mean jcarl, you are wrong. I don't know jcarl. My aim is to discredit Xianity and help make you Xians aware of the truth. As far as you and jcarl are concerned, well, I... I... love you... yeah, yeah, that's right... that's the ticket... I love you! (choke)(puke)(piss all over myself ala The Exorcist)

???

I've cut and pasted, but you obviously didn't read my quotes. Honestly, okinrus, you can find enough proof all over the Internet, you just choose not to and to go on believing in fairy tales. (Do you still put your teeth under the pillow for the tooth fairy?)

We don't have too much information on early christianity beyond what the bible, gnostic documents and what the church father's wrote. Most of the gnostic writings borrow from already present greek ideas and should be rejected.

They wrote what they had heard, not what they had seen. They propagated the myth of the fairy tale. Either they knew full well they were lying, or they wrote it blindly. Who Josephus was and/or
what pen name he and/or Paul wrote under is still in question.

??? I'm not aware of any text analysis done on Josephus' writings and Paul's but I'm pretty sure they would differ.

Been there, done that, bought the postcard. Yeah, sure, there was a Xian "presence" before Nicaea, but the dogma wasn't written until then. What if, just what if, Xianity was all man-made? (Pause here, okinrus, and think about it).

Of course the dogma was written somewhat in the bible and church father's writings. It was only a question of whose writings to accept into the official canon of the church.

You mean "dead" apostles? They weren't around in 325 AD!

Yes, the structure of the church was built up from the apostles. We have the writings of Ignatius, Polycarp, and a few others who knew the apostles.

<i>Remember, okinrus, xianity was all MAN-MADE long after Jesus retired in France.</i>
France?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Isaiah was a rabbi

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Please show me a single rabbinic authority who classifies Isaiah as a rabbi.

CA, I just posted the Rabbi Isaiah post on the new thread. However, I wanted to post this one about Isaiah as well. The source cited is at the end of the post.

NOTHING IN ISAIAH 53 RELATES TO JESUS

The problem with Christians reading the Jewish Bible, which they refer to as the "old testament", is the unknowledable Christian knows nothing about the Jewish history. On the other hand, Christian Pastors know the truth. But they have to preach the "Christian
spin" which is, everything refers to Jesus.

When reading Isaiah 53:4 in the Hebrew language which is the SOURCE of the Holy Bible, the Hebrew word "nagua", which means stricken, refers to one who has been stricken with leprosy, as seen in 2 Kings 15:5. Was Jesus ever stricken with leprosy?

King Uzziah (2 Kings 15:1), although he was a good king towards his
people during his long reign of fifty-two years, failed in his first
duty under God by allowing the worship of strange gods within the
land. Added to his fault he ambitiously took upon himself to enter the temple and assuming the priestly office went on to burn the sacred incense before the God of Israel. For this intrusion into holy places and allowing Jews to worship idols, he was smitten by God with the dreaded disease of leprosy and so remained a leper isolated from his people unto the day of his death. Question: So how does this fit into the "suffering servant" in Isaiah?

The link is clear and plainly stated in Isaiah 1:1 where we read,
"the vision of Isaiah in the days of Uzziah. Isaiah was a contemporary of King Uzziah and lived through to the time of the king's death. Isaiah was well acquainted with Uzziah's experience (Isaiah 6:1). It seems the lesson Isaiah is putting before his people is, "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel" (Isaiah 53:6).

Let's read Isaiah 53 with this Jewish concept of King Uzziah, the way
Isaiah was writing it - not the way Christians see Jesus in every
line.

Verse 2 : "He shot up as a sapling" - Due to his father's death in
battle, Uzziah had to take the throne at the early age of sixteen
years.

Verse 3: "Despised and forsaken by men, a man of pains and accustomed
to illness and as one who hides his face from us; despised, and we
esteemed him not." This clearly tells the sad tale of a man with
leprosy. Was Jesus "accustomed to illness"?

Verse 6: "We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on
his own way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us." It seems the lesson Isaiah is putting before his people is, "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel.

Verse 8: "He was taken away" - Due to his affliction as a leper he was taken away from the royal palace, his court and people, to spend his life in a house of isolation unto the day of his death. "For he was cut off out of the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, was he stricken". The Jews under King Uzziah began to worship idols, Uzziah was stricken (nagua). It is obvious, the comparisons between the experiences of the historical King Uzziah are so numerous that one can conclude that Isaiah is here describing the king and not Jesus on a cross.

Israel is portrayed as a "suffering servant" because of its anointed
leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper is a
suffering servant of God.

________________________


Think about it - if Isaiah, 300 years before was prophesying about
Jesus, why did not one of Jesus' disciples recognize the comparisons
of Isaiah 53 and Jesus? If the disciples knew that Isaiah was talking
about Jesus, wouldn't they have said, "Hurray, prophecy is coming
true"? But they didn't.

Christian apologists say these disciples were not learned men - that
they did not know the Jewish Bible. Really? What about Matthew? If
Matthew did not know the Jewish Bible, how could he have said over and over; "as was written", or "as prophesied", or "as the prophets said"? Why didn't Matthew see the comparison and say something like, "praise God, prophecy is coming true as was told by the prophet"?

Too bad the Christian Pastors cannot tell the real truth of the story. Why is it so necessary for the so-called "Old Testament" to relate to Jesus? Can't Christianity stand on its own virtues without altering the Jewish Bible?

Ever hear the saying; "the truth shall set you free"? Well,
unfortunately for Christians, the truth is in the Jewish Bible when
you read it in its original Hebrew.

PS: Who does the Tanakh identify as the "Servant"? Isaiah says Israel
is six times. Psalms 136:22 says Israel and Jeremiah 30:10 also says
it is Israel. Nowhere is another entity mentioned.

Source: Jerusalem Institute of Biblical Polemics, by Shmuel Golding

Visit the Truth-of-Judaism Web Site:
http://www.jdstone.org/truth/

 

[okinrus]

When reading Isaiah 53:4 in the Hebrew language which is the SOURCE of the Holy Bible, the Hebrew word "nagua", which means stricken, refers to one who has been stricken with leprosy, as seen in 2 Kings 15:5. Was Jesus ever stricken with leprosy?

http://www.mayimhayim.org/Poetry/Isaiah 53.htm

Think about it - if Isaiah, 300 years before was prophesying about
Jesus, why did not one of Jesus' disciples recognize the comparisons
of Isaiah 53 and Jesus? If the disciples knew that Isaiah was talking
about Jesus, wouldn't they have said, "Hurray, prophecy is coming
true"? But they didn't.

They did. This is why at the end of the bread scene in John his disciples asked him if he was the Holy One of Isreal. Also the mention of Jesus not talking before Pilate would not have been mentioned unless if John knew that Jesus was fullfilling Isaiah 53.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by okinrus

They did. This is why at the end of the bread scene in John his disciples asked him if he was the Holy One of Isreal. Also the mention of Jesus not talking before Pilate would not have been mentioned unless if John knew that Jesus was fullfilling Isaiah 53. [/B]

I've got another one for you, dude!

As has been pointed out, the Septuagint was a translation of only the
Torah, not Prophets and Writings.

NO copy of the Jewist Septuagint translation exists. It has not existed for nearly 1700 years at a minimum.

Origen, an early church father from 185-254 CE tried to cobble together a decent translation of Jewish scripture. Origen became aware of the significant differences between the scripture used
by the Jews and the Septuagint of Xians -- back as far ago as then!

He decided to put together, side by side, the leading translations. This work was called the Hexapla.

The Hexapla consisted of six columns of parallel texts: (1) the Hebrew text, (2) the Hebrew text transliterated into Greek characters, (3) the Greek version of Aquila, (4) the Greek
version of Symmachus, (5) the Septuagint, and (6) the Greek version of Theodotion.

In the Septuagint column, Origen marked with an obelus those passages present in Greek but not found in his Hebrew column. (This shows you there had already been tampering with the Septuagint).

When the Septuagint lacked material found in Hebrew, Origen would insert the passage from one of the other Greek columns (which were closer textually to the Hebrew) and mark the insertion with an asterisk. Although the Hexapla in its entirety was apparently never copied, the Septuagint column was copied repeatedly.

Unfortunately, many copies omitted Origen's astericks, so people began to think the Hebrew was the one contaminated. . .

So this translation mess goes back to the first century CE and any Xian who tries to hold up the Septuagint as a "source" is clueless.

"http://www.jdstone.org/truth/

 

[okinrus]

I've got another one for you, dude!

As has been pointed out, the Septuagint was a translation of only the
Torah, not Prophets and Writings.

The Law was translated first and then the latter prophets were translated
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07316a.htm
Origen considers the Septuagint more or less pure.
"It was through the reproduction of this edition by later scribes, without Origen's critical signs, that arose the Hexaplar text which so greatly increased the confusion of Septuagint manuscripts. However, it hardly circulated outside of Palestine."

 

[chalcedony]

Lots of things written here that deserve a response.

But what about the Jews that followed Jesus? Jesus was a Rabbi, for God's sake, he encouraged the Jews to follow the Law of Moses! You people seem to think Jesus was a Xian, but he wasn't! What Jesus did do that was non-Rabbinical teaching was to tell the Jews about the Spirit and eternal life in the Spirit--not through him but through God! Jesus did not give "a new law." Jesus did nothing outside his Rabbinical duties except to explain the wonderment of the Spirit. It was Jesus's followers, Paul, Peter, etc., that created the "new law." Why is it so complicated for you people?

Jesus called Himself God. Jesus taught that eternal salvation would only come to those who accepted Jesus as Saviour, and that He had to die on the cross to achieve that. Jesus accepted worship of Himself. These are hardly the words or actions of your basic rabbi.

John 5
17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

(regarding Isaac as the son of God’s promise) Bull Shit? Shame on you Jenyar, shame on you.. Assigning god again sons and inheritance, Shame on you for circulating evil thoughts created by the exclusive club of jews.(Flores)

I'm not Muslim, and therefore I cannot quote the Qur'an, but Ishmael was the firstborn son of Abraham and the chosen one. Why is it you Xians always pick and choose what you want to believe rather than what is true?(Medicine Woman)

Genesis 17
15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."
17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"
19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.

Voodooo crap, god doesn't accept neither their nationality or circumcision.(Flores)

Galatians 3
27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This question goes entirely against what Jesus taught as a Rabbi. The Jews didn't believe in salvation, so you are wrong on both counts.

Jesus NEVER, I repeat, NEVER said that "salvation comes through believe in Him." Jesus didn't even understand the concept of "salvation!" Jews don't believe in it. It was Jesus's followers, again, Paul, Peter, and the like, who created the myth of salvation through Jesus!

Unless one is a Jew, one is not obligated to follow the Law of Moses. Of course, salvation has nothing to do with the Law of Moses! It has nothing to do with Jesus, either!

John 14
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10
24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 10
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,

As Xians, you all pick and choose what you want to follow and what you don't. The Bible is highly conflicted with errors, and you really don't know what you believe is true or not. It's like a cat and mouse game... a hide and seek game... a hunt and peck game... a stab in the dark.

Besides Paul's biased myths and the gospels that Paul commissioned, what else exists that could possibly be truthful?

Paul invented Xianity. I know Paul about as the same as you know Paul, but I know the truth, and you don't believe it. I don't care to read lies. Xianity is Paul's religion, not Jesus's. As a matter of fact, I know Jesus better than you and your compadre's do.

No we really don’t pick and chose from the bible. I don’t know where you get that idea. I also have no clue where you get the lie that Paul rewrote Christianity.

Some facts about Paul and Christian beliefs:

part one

part two

If you believe in Jesus, why don't you just do what he really said, and not what Paul said he said? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. This is all you have to do. I'm not an Xian, but I understand it.

No I’m afraid you don’t have any understanding about Christian beliefs. We are doing what our Lord Jesus has said. Jesus said many things such as He is the way, no one comes to the Father except through Him. He also said:

John 3
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

While we are in bodily form, and the only reason we came here in bodily form, is to carry the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth. God dwells within us. God is our Soul. God is our eternal life. That is the gift we have for eternity. There is nothing to be saved from, and Jesus was no savior. This is the message HE tried to leave, but it got bastardized by Paul and his band of spiritual thieves. If you're alive right now, you've already attained "salvation." Go figure.

Very sad. We became spiritually dead way back in the beginning of Genesis. We are eternally separated from God without the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is our Saviour as I showed earlier in bible verses. Without Jesus, we could never be good enough to approach God. We would have been condemned by our own sins.

Remember, okinrus, xianity was all MAN-MADE long after Jesus retired in France.

I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic. Since you are adamant about this claim, perhaps you’d care to back it up with a few sources.

 

[atheroy]

Jesus called Himself God

you know, lots of christians say this but not once have i come across an instance where jesus explicitly said "i am god".

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

in the belief of adam and eve we could all call ourselves the son or daughter of god. (attempting a christian perspective here) god created us all through creating adam and eve, in a sense he is our parent, jesus refering to himself as a son of god does not in anyway make him different from anyone else- that and again jesus doesn't actually say "i am god".

to many of you here are missing the point i was trying to make. if you believe in jesus and you believe he was god, does it not then make sense that you believe what jesus himself believed (being your god). theoretically, you are believing what you want to believe about the man, when the man himself would be telling you what you believe is wrong. it makes sense to me. if you believe in jesus and you follow him (christians) then you should also follow his belief. as far as i know he never removed himself from judaism. why should all you christians therefore feel you can use him for your belief when you should believe what he believed?

that right there is my point. reply to that. already this thread has had WAY more replies than i thought it would, it has been a day and a night and i'm pretty much behind the play. this sort of response is sweet,

thanks,

atheory

 

[Jenyar]

The short answer is that doing that would deny in effect what Jesus came to accomplish. It is extensively explained in Paul's epistles. He describes it as "robbing the cross of its power".

 

[Medicine*Woman]

The lies you believe!!!

Originally posted by chalcedony
Lots of things written here that deserve a response.
Jesus called Himself God. Jesus taught that eternal salvation would only come to those who accepted Jesus as Saviour, and that He had to die on the cross to achieve that. Jesus accepted worship of Himself. These are hardly the words or actions of your basic rabbi.

----------
M*W: Jesus NEVER called himself "God." If your Bible states this, your Bible lies. My guess is you are interpreting what you want to believe in your Bible. Jesus NEVER taught that eternal salvation would only come to those who accepted him! As a Xian, you are unable to distinguish what Jesus actually said and what Paul wrote. Let me reiterate for the zillionth time that Paul NEVER knew Jesus. Paul wrote most of the NT. Paul had his own agenda in his writings. It had NOTHING to do with Jesus. Jesus NEVER wanted to be worshipped! His message was to love God not him! Whatever you believe, Jesus WAS a Rabbi. Maybe he was too enlightened to be a Rabbi, but he was a Rabbi. There are several problems here. 1) The Bible has been mistranslated a multitude of times. 2) What you're reading is NOT what the text originally said. 3) If you want to know what the original text said, you should converse with ConsequentAtheist. He is a Biblical scholar and knows all the correct translations. 4) You're putting words in Jesus's mouth that he NEVER said. 5) You don't understand the difference between what Jesus may have said and what Paul wrote. 6) You're interpreting specific passages of the Bible to confirm what you believe--to make it look like you're smarter than you are. 7) You are taking things out of context to create your own personal agenda. 8) You are not coming from an intelligent stance but from your own emotional agenda. 9) You are seriously confused about Xianity. 10) You believe in a pack of lies and that makes you an "XZ."
----------
No we really don’t pick and chose from the bible. I don’t know where you get that idea. I also have no clue where you get the lie that Paul rewrote Christianity.[/QUOTE]
----------
M*W: Paul DID NOT REWRITE Xianity--Paul created the myth!!! You are even misinterpreting what I've said!!! Do you have a reading comprehension problem? DO NOT attempt to reinterpret what I say on this forum! When I have something to say, I make it very clear as to the meaning. I don't need you to translate my posts!
----------

Some facts about Paul and Christian beliefs:

part one

part two

----------
M*W: Why would I be interested in a Xian website? You just don't get it, do you? I was a Xian for a long time. I never missed church for about 20 years. I taught junior and senior high catechism. I have taught adult education religious courses. I ate, drank, slept and believed in Xianity out the wazoo. I was too caught up in Xianity to believe the lies. At one time, I was like you--a believer. Then I found the truth. Xian websites and other publications are for those of you who can't think on their own. These things are what feeds your religious addiction. I was addicted to Xianity, too, but now I'm recovering from the lies. I don't need you to quote your Bible scripture. I have read it all, I understand what it says, and I have rejected it and retrieved my soul.
----------

No I’m afraid you don’t have any understanding about Christian beliefs. We are doing what our Lord Jesus has said. Jesus said many things such as He is the way, no one comes to the Father except through Him. He also said:

----------
M*W: I'm not going to argue scripture with you, because it is a waste of E=MC2. Why do you feel the insecure need to quote scripture? Do you think we non-Xians have never read the Bible? Come on, no one would be on this forum if they were not well-read and versed in some religion or belief.
----------

We became spiritually dead way back in the beginning of Genesis. We are eternally separated from God without the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is our Saviour as I showed earlier in bible verses. Without Jesus, we could never be good enough to approach God. We would have been condemned by our own sins.

----------
M*W: How sad it is you are spiritually lost! You are using a cop-out saying "we became spiritually dead....". Maybe you did, but I didn't. There are a number of people on this forum who are not spiritually dead except the Xians. Yes, you would have to believe you are spiritually dead to have the need for a savior! Let me make it simple for you 1+1=2. I just don't understand how "some of you" became spiritually dead way back in the day, when there are many of us who are not spiritually dead but very much alive! Let me tell you a little secret. Why do you think you're here? Have you ever pondered what the meaning of your life is? The only reason you are here in the flesh is to be a spiritual vehicle to carry the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth during your lifetime. There is no such thing as death. Death is simply a transition of shedding the body (Earthsuit) to return to the source of all creation--the Spirit of God. We are not simply human beings who have a soul, we are one with the spirit of God who for a short time has a physical body. Ultimately we're all spirit. We're all One with God. To say you are spiritually dead, you are denying God! The spirit of God dwells within you! Even Jesus said that "the kingdom of God is within." You have NOT been separated from God! This is the false teaching of Xianity! God is within you right now as we bicker over bullcaca. You don't need to wait for "salvation." The fact that you are here, alive, on Planet Earth is PROOF there is salvation! Salvation comes not from another person like Jesus but through your own soul which is part of the One Spirit of God. There's only one soul--the One Spirit of God that as human beings we all share. There's only one Creator, and we are also part of that one Creator. You say you're "not good enough to approach God." It's just NOT true! The human race is the face of God on Earth! Unless you're not a part of the human race, you are a Godly creation filled with the One Spirit of God. Xianity aims to rob you of this belief and offer you a "savior" because "you're not worthy," etc. If you're alive right now, and if you can determine that you truly are a human being, then I am sure God dwells within you. Don't be afraid, and don't let anyone tell you that you are not worthy to be with God. They lie.
----------

I’d laugh if it wasn’t so tragic. Since you are adamant about this claim, perhaps you’d care to back it up with a few sources.

----------
M*W: Without taking up anymore space to repeat myself, I have posted sources in other replies. If you're truly interested in what I have to say, please check out my other posts. Don't be afraid to look beyond the boundaries of religion when God already dwells within.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Off your medicines again I see.

Why must you always personally attack our posts? If you don't have anything to offer to the discussion, is it just that you get off to being hateful? You are the one who needs medication!

I didn't make up the theory that Jesus escaped the crucifixion and went to France. I read it in a book. There are quite a number of publications about this subject. It seems to be a plausible theory that I would like to learn more about. In the meantime, you can see for yourself that it is not a figment of my imagination.

http://www.rennes-le-chateau.comhttp://www.rennes-le-chateau.com

 

[chalcedony]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Why must you always personally attack our posts?

Ironic coming from you, after your personal attack on me.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by chalcedony
Ironic coming from you, after your personal attack on me.

I do not mean to attack you personally. It's just that Xians all say the same thing like a tape recording. My attack is at the religion.

CA on the other hand, pretends he's quite the intellectual, yet he rarely says anything worthwhile. He makes a habit of criticizing everyone's person rather than what they post. I give him credit for being knowledgeable about ancient history and writings, but sadly he doesn't use it on this forum. Besides, I think he's a woman going through menopause. He is too much of a bully to be a real man.

 

[Circe]

He makes a habit of criticizing everyone's person rather than what they post.

Besides, I think he's a woman going through menopause. He is too much of a bully to be a real man.

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Circe
Pot calling the kettle black.

I'm not an atheist.