Why are you ARGUING about "GOD?"

[water]

Agreeing to disagree means that no truth can be found at this moment, not that it doesn't exist.

If not now, then when?

What does one need in order to prove to every single person on this planet that a certain God exists?

What an acceptable proof is depends on the person to whom you are trying to prove something. This is the problem with proof. Everyone has (or likes to think they have) their own set of criteria what proof is.

In my opinion, that would be individually up to each and every person on this planet. It's not impossible to do that, if God wanted to, but since He doesn't appear to want to do that, then why don't we just agree to disagree until He does?

Because the issue is too important and too pertinent.

To agree to disagree is to give up on truth. For the sake of ... ego?

For the sake of our damned race.

Eh. If our race is damned, then why the hell bother with it?

yes, that is my point. That is where I feel like I am, yet it is hard to stop arguing.

Why do you think it is hard to stop arguing?

 

[Cottontop3000]

If not now, then when?

when we grow up a little.

What an acceptable proof is depends on the person to whom you are trying to prove something. This is the problem with proof. Everyone has (or likes to think they have) their own set of criteria what proof is.

Exactly, so how can we ever agree?

Because the issue is too important and too pertinent.

We like to think that we are important, yes.

Eh. If our race is damned, then why the hell bother with it?

Because that at least is something we CAN find answers to. If we can send someone to the moon, why can't, or won't we try to eliminate starvation and poverty? Sounds like a good Christian ideal to me. Not that some people aren't trying to, but for some reason they are facing a lot of resistance from some arrogant fucks in this world.

Why do you think it is hard to stop arguing?

Because I like to take out my pain on others. Because I am arrogant like those that I condemn. Because I have an out-of-control ego. Because I've been put down my whole life. Because I know no better.

 

[(Q)]

Why can't we agree to disagree, for now, and try to find common ground for Now.

Unfortunately, there is no common ground when ones perception of reality is a fantasy.

 

[Anomalous]

1) What is it about us that makes us need to argue about this? God is just a good reason to argue, to me, but I think there is something about humanity in general, some of us in particular, that makes us want to argue and fight with each other.

2) Why?

3) If we can't really prove to each other that MY God is real, and yours is not, why do we feel like we have to argue over it? We can't really know, not in the sense that we can prove it to everyone, so why do we have to insist that we do know?

4) Why can't we accept that we don't know for sure, and accept that this is alright? :bugeye:

5) Why am I waiting with baited breath to take down whoever posts first?

1) That is so because some many people around us are stil having stone age brain genes.

2) And hence dont accept thing as they are and become a hurdel in way of good people.

3) Proof is not required in blind faithers.

4) Blind Faith.

5) Because U know , U will be fried on this one.

 

[Anomalous]

1) Our own way is always right, but it is usually not right for others.

2) When we are arguing with people, we are arguing with ourselves.

3) We want to convince ourselves that we are right.

4) Why?

5) Because we are not perfect, so we are attracted by perfection.

1) Logically or without any explanations of mechanics behind them.

2) U r imposing your view here as ours, shame on U.

3) Naa, I want U to prove me wrong, i.e. If U can and have any arguments.

4) U r imposing your view here as ours.

5) I agree with this one, Atleast some hope is left for U.

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

when we grow up a little.

This is your perfectionism speaking. "If you can't do it good, don't do it at all." That way, nothing gets done, ever.

We won't just "grow up"; you are hoping for a perfect time when we will be perfect and think and do perfectly.

What an acceptable proof is depends on the person to whom you are trying to prove something. This is the problem with proof. Everyone has (or likes to think they have) their own set of criteria what proof is.

Exactly, so how can we ever agree?

Never, if we remain the way described above.

We like to think that we are important, yes.

We *are* important: You are important to yourself, certain people are important to you. And so with everyone.

Eh. If our race is damned, then why the hell bother with it?

Because that at least is something we CAN find answers to. If we can send someone to the moon, why can't, or won't we try to eliminate starvation and poverty? Sounds like a good Christian ideal to me. Not that some people aren't trying to, but for some reason they are facing a lot of resistance from some arrogant fucks in this world.

And why do those resist?

Because I know no better.

Not to think it will always be this way.


* * *


(Q),

Unfortunately, there is no common ground when ones perception of reality is a fantasy.

There is no common ground with people who claim they know objective reality.
Somewhere along the line, scientific thinking clouded you, and you became a robot, caught in that same loop.

 

[water]

1) Logically or without any explanations of mechanics behind them.

2) U r imposing your view here as ours, shame on U.

3) Naa, I want U to prove me wrong, i.e. If U can and have any arguments.

4) U r imposing your view here as ours.

5) I agree with this one, Atleast some hope is left for U.

Imposing? She is imposing her view on us?

Do you see her standing there next to you, pointing a gun to your head and a knife to your throat, saying "Think the way I tell you, or I will kill you?"

 

[Cottontop3000]

How about this? How about we agree to accept that "we" may be wrong and the "other" may be right? Would that kill us? I mean, I can't prove to you that you are wrong, and you can't prove to me that I am wrong, so let's drop the whole thing and get on with something that we can make a truth as opposed to something that will possibly remain a mystery for eternity?

Or, how about this? We ALL sincerely ask Jesus, or God, or Mohammed to save us, to forgive us, to deliver us and THEN get on with the business of making a difference in this world? Stop talking about it, stop dwelling on it, stop obsessing about something that we can't understand or find an absolute answer to. Stop hating. "Can't we all just get along?" I love that quote!!

 

[Godless]

Do you see her standing there next to you, pointing a gun to your head and a knife to your throat, saying "Think the way I tell you, or I will kill you?"

No but is it not what religion implies? When it assumes that one will end up in "hell" because one does not believe as they do?. This is clearly the claim of every faith. That your "soul" will be damned for not believing as Christians, Catholics, Judia, thinks. So repent and contradict your nature, accept our ways, or else?

Godless

 

[water]

Cottontop3000,

How about this? How about we agree to accept that "we" may be wrong and the "other" may be right? Would that kill us?

Yes. Very much so.

I mean, I can't prove to you that you are wrong, and you can't prove to me that I am wrong, so let's drop the whole thing and get on with something that we can make a truth as opposed to something that will possibly remain a mystery for eternity?

Yes. Practicality.

Or, how about this? We ALL sincerely ask Jesus, or God, or Mohammed to save us, to forgive us, to deliver us and THEN get on with the business of making a difference in this world? Stop talking about it, stop dwelling on it, stop obsessing about something that we can't understand or find an absolute answer to. Stop hating. "Can't we all just get along?" I love that quote!!

No go.


* * *

Godless,

Do you see her standing there next to you, pointing a gun to your head and a knife to your throat, saying "Think the way I tell you, or I will kill you?"

No but is it not what religion implies? When it assumes that one will end up in "hell" because one does not believe as they do?. This is clearly the claim of every faith. That your "soul" will be damned for not believing as Christians, Catholics, Judia, thinks. So repent and contradict your nature, accept our ways, or else?

Lazy self-victimization.

Unless you ACTUALLY believe that you will go to hell if you don't love God, ANY fear of God is an illusion, a lazy self-victimization. And taking any such threat serioulsy, is an act of laziness.

You are taking those threats seriously -- this shows in that those threats are one of your reasons for discarding religion.

 

[(Q)]

There is no common ground with people who claim they know objective reality.

The common ground IS reality and is agreed upon by those who observe it for what it is and not for what they want it to be.

Somewhere along the line, scientific thinking clouded you, and you became a robot, caught in that same loop.

Thats rather hypocritical of you, don't ya think?

Science has provided much for you personally, enough to get you out of a cave and into a comfy home. Religion, on its own, would have kept you in that cave, praying for a better life.

 

[water]

There is no common ground with people who claim they know objective reality.

The common ground IS reality and is agreed upon by those who observe it for what it is and not for what they want it to be.

Another one claiming to know objective reality ...

Somewhere along the line, scientific thinking clouded you, and you became a robot, caught in that same loop.

Thats rather hypocritical of you, don't ya think?

No, it is offensive.

Science has provided much for you personally, enough to get you out of a cave and into a comfy home. Religion, on its own, would have kept you in that cave, praying for a better life.

Science is nothing without the people who pursue it.
And your argument is full of straw.

 

[ellion]

You miss my point, I think, some of you. Why can't we agree to disagree, for now, and try to find common ground for Now. Leave the arguing and thinking for another day.

why dont you?

Why must we wait on Him to make the lives of starving people around the world a little more tolerable?

we dont. anybody, including yourself, with the desire to make changes in the world for better or for worse has the freedom to do so.

Do any of you know what it is like to starve, to death?

is it as bad as hiv or cancer? leprosy? greed? i died of frustration once that was really irritating.

While we sit here comfortably on our high-dollared computers and argue something that is really unanswerable, in my opinion, we could instead be trying to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

WHY do you use the word we when you talk about yourself? it seems like you want to make changes, you want to do something, but you sit there at your computer and say everybody else needs to do it with you.

Those that are going to grow up with a hatred for the "people who have", the "people who are arrogant in their wealth," if they live at all.

what is this about? do you envy those who do not share their wealth or is it that you want them to give more, you want the wealthy to be more generous? i'm not sure what you are aiming at here.

I am just as guilty of this as anybody, and I'm not trying to start a fight by condemning any of you. I am just trying to think more seriously about my life, and why I do and think the things I do, and hoping to change something that can be changed. Hopefully for the better. I really am glad I got back on the internet, after 10 years, because talking to you guys has really started me thinking again in my life. Something I've resisted doing for too long. Now, I just want to do what I can to change some of the wrong that I see in my country, the U.S.A. I think our thinking and policy is wrong overall. I want to see us help others, not hurt them. I want to see us wake up and realize that our arrogance and pride (somehow related to the religion of Christianity, I think, my old religion) is hurting many others world-wide, and while we have sat on our laurels after "winning" the cold war, we have lost sight of what is really important. What the "Bible" really teaches, at its heart.

okay good, now what you going to do?

I say stop arguing and hating, if this applies to you, and start trying to be a better human. If you want to tell me to fuck off, I'm sure you will.

if you want to stop arguing dont argue. some people enjoy it. some people learn form it, grow from it, thrive in it, some people dont and they fuck off without being told.

 

[Cottontop3000]

if you want to stop arguing dont argue. some people enjoy it. some people learn form it, grow from it, thrive in it, some people dont and they fuck off without being told.

say it bitch, and I might. or I might not. I'm just trying to get you to use YOUR mind for something more than argument for argument's sake, you dumb %$#@!!!!!!

 

[MarcAC]

Pascal's Wager is corrupted, mainly because it supposes that God does not act.

Maybe Pascal was a lot smarter than some think.

The wager itself is based on the "uncertainty" of God's existence. If one makes the effort to believe by seeking God (putting his faith in God) who is to say that God won't act upon that faith "if" He exists?

Fear permits survival might I add; many "anti-goddists" will use this argument in the mind that "fear" is an undesirable attitude towards God - I think otherwise. You sternly prevent your child from venturing too close to the road because a car might come by, the child ventures too far, and becomes roadkill.

What is love of God if we don't love ourselves and others around us? Should we not love ourselves enough - i.e. view ourselves as precious in God's sight - so that we may seek to preserve that which He endowed: life? Is it selfish to love yourself?

Even if one chooses to believe from fear there is the hope that God will act as sure as He exists such that one will grow to know God and love God just as the child who is prevented from "exploring" will grow to see the love of their parents (however stern) when they learn (however they do) of the dangers cars present on the road.

Pascal is one of the greatest evangelists I know of.

 

[MarcAC]

One sould never commit to something out of fear or lack of better knowledge.

What is "better" knowledge? If it is what I assume...

We may always assume there is "better" knowledge but then will we ever commit to anything?

 

[water]

Marc,

Check this out:

The best refutation of Pascal's Wager.

 

[water]

What is "better" knowledge? If it is what I assume...

We may always assume there is "better" knowledge but then will we ever commit to anything?

One should know *why* one is committing to something.
This is the tough part.

 

[ellion]

say it bitch, and I might. or I might not. I'm just trying to get you to use YOUR mind for something more than argument for argument's sake, you dumb %$#@!!!!!!

thats very considerate of you but i can look after my own mind.
do you think there could be something more to arguing than an argument?
like what i see is behind the argument there are real people with real feelings and they are using words to communicate those feelings to one another. on this forum their are hundreds of psychological landscapes all experiencing each other.
different worlds interacting, altering and transforming in a process of psychic evolution. but then there are those who call each other names with symbols. read between the lines ($)*%*(£)

 

[Godless]

You are taking those threats seriously -- this shows in that those threats are one of your reasons for discarding religion.

WRONG!! AGAIN!!

It's because I chose to be rational, other than mystical that I chose to discard religious claims!.

Godless