Who designed the designer?

[Xelasnave.1947]

No. Your concern is to score points.

I express my concern you side step and accuse me of point scoring. Jan I sincerely say to you I am not trying to score points.
I feel now that I am upsetting you and I really dont want to do that.
I dont like to see you getting flustered like this so please remember we are just having a chat and no one should be upset.
The main reason I argue with you is to give you a different style to work with.
You are so very good at what you do and in time you will be able to manage folk like me.
I hope to lead you to enlightenment.

God doesn't ''allow'' killing and cruelty in this world. ''Killing'' is a natural part of the world, and humans allow cruelty to take place.

Yes clearly you are correct Jan humans are entirely responsible for the cruelty killing and suffering and unfortunately it is such a part of the world we call it natural.

Can you elaborate?

I can Jan but perhaps it is best I keep my observations to myself.
Let me put it as nice as I possibly can.
The scriptures were all written by men.

You cannot know something that you're not aware of.
The question is alrea

That seems reasonable Jan.

f you're concerned that God could stop freewill, then you must accept, at least on some level, that God has the power to change freewill. So I don't buy your confusion.
You just want to justify your amnesia atheism.
But you are most likely confused, being an atheist and not knowing why you are, only that you are.

I am glad you explained it clearly for me Jan.
I will deal with my confusion in my own way.
I should not trouble you with my trivial concerns.

Why is it?

I am sorry Jan I should not have called your excuse lame and next time I will keep such opinions to myself.
I feel terrible to have upset you so much.

What is ''better'' in your eyes?

I dont feel I should suggest what would be better, my opinion does not matter.

Plus, why does it matter to you the humans kill, and are cruel?

I dont know Jan maybe I am just too soft hearted for this world. I care for others and animals and I find the current world not a very nice place.
I just wish it could be different.
I often wonder how other planets are...I hope there are places where it is different and where kindness is the rule.

Where in your world view can you know that it is wrong, as opposed to right?
By what standard do you determine right and wrong, good and

Atheists tend to have compassionate non judgemental standards.
Being kind is my first thing and from there all good things flow.

Based on what

My desire to see kindness rule the world.

Does this help you remain atheist?

I should not have said that Jan in reflection I can see how upsetting it must be for you.

What makes you think, God (your God

The scriptures were written by men.

People can stop murdering and being cruel.
The problem is, we humans have made society the way it is, not God.
There are prescribed ways for humans to live a successful life, but most of the time we choose a different path, because we think we want to, and can be
independent from God. Now that we have messed up, the most rebellious of us asks, ''where is God now''? Almost happy that mankind has sunken so that he can play his card.
No care for understanding, or comprehension of the real situation.

Yes I can see why you could see things that way.

You're an atheist.
You've no choice but to come to this,

Yes I think you are right Jan.

You're only concern is what humans do to each other?

No you know that is not how I feel,
but it was terrible of me to throw out this crumb knowing you would jump on it.
I wont exploit the advantage I had in mind simply so you know its not about scoring points.
But lighten up and laugh with me at how I got you with that one.
See you are getting upset with me and you should not, staying calm is necessary to reach enlightenment.

I shouldn't be surprised, because ultimately, it appears as though killing and cruelty doesn't matter to you (as long as it doesn't affect you), because there is no standard by which you can measure what is right and what is wrong. You are only concerned with scoring points (and even then...)

I think I understand Jan you think because I am an athiest that I am incapable of holding any standard of morality or rules to live by.
I assure you that I am enlightened and have a moral standard probably higher than any religion can deliver and I guess that would be hard to understand if you are just a theist. Its different thats all but certainly not less moral as you presumably believe.
Its ok I understand where you are coming from but suggest you could think more positively about how others may manage morality, and certainly dont think atheists are devoid of high standards of compassion.
We probably are more focused on kindness than theists.
You should not worry about point scoring it really does not come into things...you are not losing here so remember that.

So the suffering of animals is of no concern?
Surprise! Surprise!
If can't see that killing and cruelty, is the same regardless of the species that are victimised, then what are you arguing about

Of course you are right Jan but dont forget I laid a bit of a trap for you here and I hope you can forgive me.

Of course it's about you Alex.
You're the one doing the enquiring.
Who else is it about?

You got me there Jan.

But you kill Alex. You allow cruelty to take place in this world.
Think Alex. Could you stop taking as many lives as you do, simply by changing your lifestyle?
Could you help reduce the slaughter of innocent creatures, by doing something to decrease the demand?
The answer is ''Yes'' you could if you wanted to. But you don't want to.
That is the problem Alex, we don't want to.

I know what the problem is but I dont wish to upset you by stating it again.
If you are happy to blame humans why should I suggest we focus on anything else.

What is a made up God?

The Gods invented by men.

No you don't.

Then make a start right now by not driving your car, and cease eating meat, fish, or eggs.

I will see what I can do one can always improve rather than simply saying I do ok.

So you're simply talking nonsense

You are upset Jan if we were point scoring you would have dropped a bundle there.
Lets move on if you want to learn about evolution I really think reading a text book would be a good start.
But if you dont want to know about it thats ok.

It's not irrelevant. It is the reason you think the way you think.
It gives reason the terminologies ''theist and atheist''.
An atheist just isn't a label that someone gives to themselves, it is a fundamental position.
You have no idea why you're atheist, yet you defend it as though it is a correct position.
Why do you do that?

I dont know what to say so I dont upset you more Jan.
I am an astronomer before I am an atheist its not a big deal for me.

What would be wrong, from your perspective, with killing and cruelty being humorous?

It goes against kindness.

I don't mind looking ridiculous to you, or any atheist on here.

Sorry I was trying to help with your style and help you maintain credibility.

Now please can you answer the question. It's an important one.

I forgot the question sorry.

That's a question from someone who doesn't know what theism is, and have forgotten God. Learn to crawl before you walk.
Stop trying to score points, and respond to my responses. That way you may learn something.

I am sorry I should not ask questions I know you can not answer.
Free will is what it is and if theists are happy with it so be it.
I should not have tried to make you feel uncomfortable but I certainly did not intend to upset you so much Jan.

You like that word. Don't you? Enlightenment.

I only use it because I thought you would like it Jan as it sounds sortta spiritual.

Which designer?
You need to clarify that first.

Well may you ask Jan to be honest I think the idea is crap really and a dishonest attempt to sneek religion into science class.

You think that because you are defending your atheism, even though you're not entirely sure why.

Well you scored a few points there Jan as I am lost for a reply.
Great effort.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

QUOTE="Jan Ardena, post: 3495360, member: 4260"]Don't dodge my questions, and find out[/QUOTE]
Jan your questions are presented to trip up your opponents and we both know that I am right but I am interested to explore past that tactic and see what other tactics you use.

Further I am really sorry that I have upset you so much and you somehow percieve that you are losing points, there are no points awarded here, you are not losing.
It was no fair of me to raise free will as I know it must sound ridiculous even to you but still you must defend it and even with your skill that is near impossible.
It will be next year in an hour and a half so I take this opportunity to wish you a happy new year Jan.
Again sorry I hit a nerve.
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Alex, why do you play these trivial games?
It just seems like a waste of time.
Oh well!

Jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Alex, why do you play these trivial games?
It just seems like a waste of time.
Oh well!

Jan.

Because I have free will to play trivial games and waste time.

It is 2018 so I speak to you from the future.

Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Why is it false?

I don't know.

Then why posit that it is false?

Jan.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Ironicly, life shows us, at least in this universe lifeforms (regardless of identity politics or station in life) is inherently communist.

If you really observe lifeforms and how they actually operate (not self-serving rationalizations and politics) you will notice this in abundance. Its seen in the most frivolous of trends of how people mimic eachother or the game of one-upmanship or keeping up with the joneses. If you take away the facade and veil, most people are starkly communist as the rich rob from the poor or use them using priviledge or abuse of power as much as the poor demand gains themselves.

I thought I posted the following or similar but clearly something went wrong.
The general observation was...
I dont think you seem to understand communism.
The main ingredient of communism is revolution and that ingredient will not be found in your examples.
Further communism is about equal distribution of wealth not a rob Peter pay Paul affair which is probably more related to capitalism tham any other political economic system.

Moreover given my difficulty in accepting your use of communism it is difficult to understand the point you attempt to make.
Alex

 

[iceaura]

Then why posit that it is false?

It's an observation, not a "posit"

 

[Jan Ardena]

It's an observation, not a "posit"

How have you observed it?

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

How have you observed it?

By looking.

How did you get fooled into thinking this: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God."? All you had to do was look, and see otherwise.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

it might explain why gods have such weird behaviour

^^^
Gods were/are made in the image of man.

<>

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

God doesn't ''allow'' killing and cruelty in this world. ''Killing'' is a natural part of the world, and humans allow cruelty to take place.

^^^
IF there is an omnipotent god, it obviously does allow killing & cruelty.
It is absurd to blame puny humans for what an omnipotent god does.

<>

 

[Michael 345]

^^^
Gods were/are made in the image of man.

<>

True and that's why they have all the defects of man and then some

What would you suspect was going through the mind of of the person who dreamt up a swan who seduced the wife of a king?

Caution PG +18 graphic content

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leda_and_the_Swan

Arrrrh the good ol days

When men were gods and women were game for anything

 

[Jan Ardena]

By looking.

What did you look at?
Please stop dodging this.
Or else I have no choice but to conclude that you're lying.

How did you get fooled into thinking this: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God."? All you had to do was look, and see otherwise.

Again, I don't know what you're looking at.
Answer it, or come of it.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
IF there is an omnipotent god, it obviously does allow killing & cruelty.
It is absurd to blame puny humans for what an omnipotent god does.

<>

So you're happy to blame God for man's stupidity, yet don't mention God who gives the ability of scientific knowledge to mankind? You'd sooner give man (scientists) that credit, would you?
This is why your claim is childish nonsense.

jan.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

So you're happy to blame God for man's stupidity, yet don't mention God who gives the ability of scientific knowledge to mankind? You'd sooner give man (scientists) that credit, would you?
This is why your claim is childish nonsense.

jan.

^^^
It is a matter of power. IF there is an omnipotent god, it has the power & humanity does not. IF it created humanity, it is responsible for what humanity is.
An intelligent person did not make themself intelligent & a stupid person did not make themself stupid.

Most of your post is unrelated to what I said.

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

It is a matter of power. IF there is an omnipotent god, it has the power & humanity does not. IF it created humanity, it is responsible for what humanity is.

Who says humanity does not have the power to be good?
Are you saying that every single human being is evil? Or do you think there are people who exist, who are not evil? Are you forces to rape, kill and torture, or can you decide not to, if you don't want to?
Let's say you're not an evil person. Do you think it is possible for most other humans to also not be evil?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
Gods were/are made in the image of man.

<>

No doubt you will not, and cannot back this claim up, so it would be pointless to ask you to.
But this response will serve as a reminder that you are blatantly making stuff up, and acting as though it is true.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Who says humanity does not have the power to be good?
Are you saying that every single human being is evil? Or do you think there are people who exist, who are not evil? Are you forces to rape, kill and torture, or can you decide not to, if you don't want to?
Let's say you're not an evil person. Do you think it is possible for most other humans to also not be evil?

jan.

^^^
I cannot believe you do not understand what I said.

<>

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

No doubt you will not, and cannot back this claim up, so it would be pointless to ask you to.
But this response will serve as a reminder that you are blatantly making stuff up, and acting as though it is true.

^^^
You make claims about others which are a reflection of you.

<>

 

[Jan Ardena]

^^^
I cannot believe you do not understand what I said.

<>

Then please make it more comprehensible.

Jan