Who designed the designer?

[Xelasnave.1947]

Would you be prepared cease all but very basic activity?

You need to outline what it is you think I would cease and be specific before I can answer your question Jan.

Do you think not being able to make a choice, is normal to the human being.

I really dont know.
Certainly many humans have very restricted choice.
What I do think is you must fight my proposition that humans could be programed not to kill or be cruel simply because promoting free will means you dont have to make excuses for a God who can not do anything but let humans kill and be cruel.

Why are you so opposed to giving up free will to decide to kill and to be cruel?

Do you not think God being God could do things just a little better.

Well of course if there was a God things could be arranged better but as there is not a God believers cling to the free will notion, they have to... rather than face the obvious proposition that their made up God, constructed by individuals steeped in superstition and ignorance, could not care about humans such that he could prevent horror and let us live in peace without un necessary suffering.

I cant understand why you want to be able to chose to kill and be cruel.

Of course you kill.
As to whether or not you're being cruel, is debatable.

Do have something in mind Jan? You see I wont step on an ant if I notice it. I wont kill a fly or mosquito and if I find one annoying I catch it and put it outside.

If I see little lizard trapped in the sink I rescue it.

I think all life is important even creatures that other humans snuff out with out a thought.

It is a pity your made up God could not have been given such kind attributes when he was made up.

You see I have programed myself not to kill or be cruel but I sure would have liked to be born that way.

If you wish to debate if I am cruel in the affirmative you can not win.

Do you say that freely, or was it guided by some Darwinian mrchanism?

Who knows why we say things or even our influences.

If you are trying to understand evolution perhaps read about it as it is reasonably clear life evolved from a relatively simple start and it seems quiet certain that the diversity of life is as a consequence of the principles of evolution and not a creation of one species at a time as made up in the bible.

Do you eat meat, fish, or eggs?

I can see that you are desparate when you grab at threads to defend the free will notion.

And you ignore I talk about what I would be prepared to do or give up.

Let me be clear I would happily give up my free will to kill and give up my free will to be cruel and if God could do his part I am sure I could do mine.

I dont need free will to kill I do not need free will to be cruel but believers need same because that is the only way they can reconcile the horror of war, the cruelty, the suffering of innocents and any terrible thing any human does to other humans or animals.

You have been pushing this nonsence for so long you actually believe it...why not exercise you free will and doubt the party line and simply think about how these excuses are just too absurd to be anything more than more made up nonsence holding no more credibility than the existence of Santa.

So, what is a human being, as far as you understand?

A human is a highly evolved animal.

You do realise you are displaying freewill. Right?

Displaying free will does not mean it is a gift from a made up God.
You may as well say...look a tree God made it.

You could also say humans kill other humans God made them do it.

How may lives do you think you have destroyed in the last month?

None that I know of but I expect insects have died on the wind screen of my car.

But I dont kill with intent.

You try and call me out and I have no power to control anything but my actions yet your made up God who supposedly can do anything cant take away from humans the will to kill or to be cruel ... you need to wonder about how silly you sound trying to make excuses and trying to defend the free will notion by hinting that I am the problem.

Tell me again why is it so important humans must have free will to kill and be cruel...and maybe just maybe when you present the story one more time it will start to sound silly even to you.

I expect the numbers who die and suffer in war alone is something that has little impact as you are so very casual to glide by without a thought for any victim.

Do you really think a God, an all powerful God, really would simply say ..they can kill each other in the millions but I can not interfer with their free will.

Made up, like everything else free will is made up...and if you study your religion you can trace back to when the church came up with the idea.

It did not come from God it came from the church..men made it up like everything else.

I suppose you know how anything evolved with ''just so'' stories.

I dont know what you are driving at but I expect you are simply trying to avoid dealing with my claim that the free will notion is nothing more than an appology mechanism.

But what do you really know, and how do you know it?

How long is a piece of string.

Happily what I do know has not come from made up stories, superstition or fairy tales told by folk who had no idea about the workings of the world and found comfort in inventing stuff rather than actually knowing what they were talking about.

The research is nonsense

Generalising wont cut it Jan.
No doubt you will regard any research that does not fit your world view as nonsence ...is that the message we should take from such a broad statement?

I thought you were no fool, and not conned easily.

And I would like to think you are correct Jan.

Why do you make claims, if you're not prepared to back up, or elaborate upon them?
Either answer the question, or ignore it.

I present a reasonable proposition and you come back all over the place. Do you read what I write?
Perhaps read what I say calmly without interuption and you will get a reasonable idea and respond in a reasonable fashion.

Any question I may not have answered you may ask again but please show some control and gather your thoughts so we can address anything that is standing in the way of your enlightement.

I've no idea what you're talking about

Of course you dont and that is because you are a theist.

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Perhaps the most concerning aspect about the free will notion is that free will does not extend to all parties.

The murderer enjoys free will to choose to kill his victim and of course the victim does not get to exercise free will to choose not to die.

The cruel master has free will to cause suffering to his animals by leaving them unattended with no food or water and yet the poor animals have no free will to choose not to stay with that master.

I suppose animals dont count given God gave dominion over the animals to man.

So let us question why the inoccent baby locked in a car on a very hot day has no free will to choose to leave and not suffer and die a horrible death ...why does the parent have the free will and not the child.

In fact this idea of free will is clearly a nonsence given it gives advantage to killers and cruel people and so is a poor appology made up by theists to reconcile major problems with the notion that their made up God loves them and cares for them.

And the only unfortunate thing , besides there being no God to stop the killing and cruelty, is that theists offer such a lame notion in appology and no acceptance that their made up God seems not to care about the creatures he supposedly created.
Either the free will idea is wrong or clearly men have no idea what is in the mind of God...oh wait they do say God works in mysterious ways and no one knows the mind of God and that everything is according to Gods plan but will not question the killing and cruelty that clearly their God allows.
And worse theists present this lack of intervention by their God as some kind of noble gift to man that allows him to go against God's law and cause suffering and death...If there is this God would he not come up with a better plan than presented by the men who made up God?

Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

You need to outline what it is you think I would cease and be specific before I can answer your question Jan.

Intention is a mental state that represents a commitment to carrying out an action or actions in the future. Intention involves mental activities such as planning and forethought. Without it, we simply would not be human.

What I do think is you must fight my proposition that humans could be programed not to kill or be cruel simply because promoting free will means you dont have to make excuses for a God who can not do anything but let humans kill and be cruel.

Where have I, or anyone for that matter, used ''freewill'' as an excuse for God?
It is man that transgresses the laws, not God.
Just as you have the choice to say what you want to say, another has the choice of how they act. That is life. No one is making excuses for God.

You try and call me out and I have no power to control anything but my actions yet your made up God who supposedly can do anything cant take away from humans the will to kill or to be cruel ... you need to wonder about how silly you sound trying to make excuses and trying to defend the free will notion by hinting that I am the problem.

If God is made up, what's your problem.
What excuses? Please quote me.

Do you not think God being God could do things just a little better.

Define God.

Why are you so opposed to giving up free will to decide to kill and to be cruel?

What I oppose, is of no consequence. I have come into this situation, and I have to deal with it. The best way to stop murdering, and cruelty, is to not do it. Maybe you're a bit lazy, and want things done for you, without checking the consequences. I can imagine communism, being such an organization that thought it could fix things, but ended up making them worse.

Well of course if there was a God things could be arranged better but as there is not a God believers cling to the free will notion, they have to... rather than face the obvious proposition that their made up God, constructed by individuals steeped in superstition and ignorance, could not care about humans such that he could prevent horror and let us live in peace without un necessary suffering.

Quit yapping then! If there is no God.

I cant understand why you want to be able to chose to kill and be cruel.

I accept my situation.
You should do the same, as for that, you've no choice.
Better to try and understand yourself, rather than make ignorant claims.

Do have something in mind Jan? You see I wont step on an ant if I notice it. I wont kill a fly or mosquito and if I find one annoying I catch it and put it outside.

Are you saying you only kill ants, or equally small creatures if you want to?
Are you really that observant?
Do you avoid running over creature when you drive your car?
Unfortunately, the rest of us kill stuff, whether we are aware of it, or not.
Killing is, to state the obvious, one of the ways in which creatures die.
Get over it.

I think all life is important even creatures that other humans snuff out with out a thought.

So why eat meat?
Is there nothing else for you to eat?

You see I have programed myself not to kill or be cruel but I sure would have liked to be born that way.

You do kill. You justify killing. And it is debatable as to whether or not you are cruel.
I say that because if it is a cruel act of God, that an earthquake take people out, then it is cruel if you drive your car over ants.

If you wish to debate if I am cruel in the affirmative you can not win.

I'm using "debatable" in a figurative sense. The question is, as we are all party to taking innocent life (albeit unintentional), are we actually being cruel? Is our desires, and intentions, driving us to kill senselessy?

Who knows why we say things or even our influences.

Some people know. Do you think because you don't know, it must be the same for all human beings?

If you are trying to understand evolution perhaps read about it as it is reasonably clear life evolved from a relatively simple start and it seems quiet certain that the diversity of life is as a consequence of the principles of evolution and not a creation of one species at a time as made up in the bible.

I don't believe you think it is clear. It's just seems better than nothing.

I can see that you are desparate when you grab at threads to defend the free will notion.

Right now you can see that you are failing, to the point where you blatantly dodge my questions, with nonsense.
Can you answer the question? Or are you going to continue to dodge with this nonsense.

A human is a highly evolved animal

In what way?

Displaying free will does not mean it is a gift from a made up God.
You may as well say...look a tree God made it.

Everything can be considered a gift from God, even your desire to forget.
The trouble you can never know that while you have forgotten.

You could also say humans kill other humans God made them do it.

You could. But then you can say anthing you think upholds your atheism.

None that I know of but I expect insects have died on the wind screen of my car.

Oh! A few insects on the windscreen. That's alright then!

But I dont kill with intent.

If you knew that to drive your car everyday, you destroy forty lives. Would you stop driving your car?

You try and call me out and I have no power to control anything but my actions yet your made up God who supposedly can do anything cant take away from humans the will to kill or to be cruel ... you need to wonder about how silly you sound trying to make excuses and trying to defend the free will notion by hinting that I am the problem.

You're talking nonsense Alex.
Take a deep breath, and get a grip.

Tell me again why is it so important humans must have free will to kill and be cruel...and maybe just maybe when you present the story one more time it will start to sound silly even to you

Again? Please quote the first time I told you. Or is is one of the 'anythings' you can spout, bring into existence, to uphold your amnesia atheism?

I dont know what you are driving at but I expect you are simply trying to avoid dealing with my claim that the free will notion is nothing more than an appology mechanism.

Avoid what?
You brought up freewill, and tried to weave it into this discussion. Now you're play it off as though I brought it up. This is nonsense of your position. You have to bring stuff to keep the discussion moving sideways.

Face it Alex, you have nothing, but empty hopes.

Happily what I do know has not come from made up stories, superstition or fairy tales told by folk who had no idea about the workings of the world and found comfort in inventing stuff rather than actually knowing what they were talking about.

Nope, it comes from people who assist you in your condition.

Generalising wont cut it Jan.
No doubt you will regard any research that does not fit your world view as nonsence ...is that the message we should take from such a broad statement?

I looked into this year's ago Alex. It's nonsense. One day when you come to your senses you'll realise that.

And I would like to think you are correct Jan.

I know you would.

Of course you dont and that is because you are a theist.

And as an atheist, you've not much idea of what that entails.

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

It is man that transgresses the laws, not God.

That's not true.
All the laws known to us, or knowable to us, that have been transgressed, have been trangressed by your God.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That's not true.
All the laws known to us, or knowable to us, that have been transgressed, have been trangressed by your God.

Which laws?

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

Which laws?

You found this sentence too complex, too obscure?

All the laws known to us, or knowable to us, that have been transgressed, have been trangressed by your God.

It seems clear enough. Try rereading.

In other words, this statement, by you, about your God: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God." is false.

 

[Jan Ardena]

You found this sentence too complex, too obscure?

It seems clear enough. Try rereading.

In other words, this statement, by you, about your God: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God." is false.

Just saying they are, doesn't make it so.
Can you give examples?

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

Just saying they are, doesn't make it so.

Nobody is confusing observation with the reality observed. We're making the observation, not the reality.
The observation is that this claim by you: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God."
is false.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Intention involves mental activities such as planning and forethought.

Jan I am not talking about intention and I purposely avoided same because we I refer to free will. The reason being free will are the words used by theists when making excuses as to why their made up God obviously cares so little about his supposed creation.

There is no reason the ability you lable intention need change if your God took away the odd gift of free will.

What would be so difficult for a God to program humans not to kill or be cruel? We seem to be programed to breath and seem not to have free will to hold our breath until we die.

Perhaps the first thing we need to ask is, if your God wanted to could he remove free will and do what I suggest?

Would it be in his power to change humans so killing and being cruel was prevented in a similar way to us trying to hold our breath and choose not to breath?

Without it, we simply would not be human.

I dont think you have made a case for that Jan.
All you have done is demonstrate that a theist must defend the notion of free will rather than have to appologise to all the victims past and present.
The notion of free will is undefendable and when you are enlightened you will be yet another voice calling out the nonsense as no more than a lame appology for a made up God.

Where have I, or anyone for that matter, used ''freewill'' as an excuse for God?

Let us assume that I dreamed up my claim and there is nothing to my notion that free will is trotted out as an excuse when one asks why does God let us kill and be cruel.
So with a fresh slate I ask why does God allow humans to kill and be cruel?

Just as you have the choice to say what you want to say, another has the choice of how they act. That is life. No one is making excuses for God.

Thats life!
I decide to kill, great, thats life?
Without excuses please tell me why humans could not be programed not to kill or be cruel by your God.

What excuses? Please quote me.

I wont be re reading all your posts so I can nail you down, I will assume that I must have misunderstood.
So I can understand Jan why is it that God does not prevent humans from killing and acts of cruelty and as we break new ground why does he not take care of all the inoccent victims?

Define God.

You are not even trying Jan.

The best way to stop murdering, and cruelty, is to not do it. Maybe you're a bit lazy, and want things done for you, without checking the consequences.

That clearly does not work.
It seems as though only God could stop the killing and cruelty.

I can imagine communism, being such an organization that thought it could fix things, but ended up making them worse.

Are you suggesting God tried and it seemed like a good idea but in practice it did not work?

4260"]Quit yapping then! If there is no God. [/QUOTE]
I like the little smile Jan but perhaps the memory of victims is diminished by not treating the matters raised as rather more serious.

Get over it.

Straight from God I guess.

So why eat meat?
Is there nothing else for you to eat?

Millions suffer and all you ask is of me, so its all my fault.
Jan will you ever reach enlightenment?

You do kill. You justify killing. And it is debatable as to whether or not you are cruel.
I say that because if it is a cruel act of God, that an earthquake take people out, then it is cruel if you drive your car over ants.

Anything to avoid addressing free will.

Do you think because you don't know, it must be the same for all human beings?

I am sure many humans believe they know but few admit they probably just make stuff up.

Are you saying you only kill ants, or equally small creatures if you want to?
Are you really that observant?
Do you avoid running over creature when you drive your car?

No, no and yes.

Or are you going to continue to dodge with this nonsense.

I have other nonsense that I am saving for later.

In what way?

You should refer to a text book the knowledge is available if you want to learn details of human evolvement history.

The trouble you can never know that while you have forgotten.

Profound.
Let me try.
No sorry thats hrd to beat.

But then you can say anthing you think upholds your atheism.

Er well yes but I am honest and focused on why I am an atheist just as you are focused on why you are a theist and believe you are honest.

That's alright then!

You just dont care about the victims Jan.

f you knew that to drive your car everyday, you destroy forty lives. Would you stop driving your car?

Absolutely.

Take a deep breath, and get a grip.

I will heed the voice of experience.

Again? Please quote the first time I told you. Or is is one of the 'anythings' you can spout, bring into existence, to uphold your amnesia atheism?

Yes, dont want to,and yes.
Your avoidence suits me and lets me off further demonstration that I am on the money.

Face it Alex, you have nothing, but empty hopes.

I think you are correct Jan I dont think the world I hope for can be created by any of the Gods man has made up.

Nope, it comes from people who assist you in your condition.

Well I guess you would know and here is me thinking that I knew that ....

It's nonsense.

If you say it is Jan I too will say its all nonsence and that way I wont have to read anything.
I am going to make up what I like and stick to it.

And as an atheist, you've not much idea of what that entails.

Perhaps.
Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan I am not talking about intention and I purposely avoided same because we I refer to free will.

If you are talking about premeditated acts, which the act of cruelty is, then you cannot disregard intention.
If you respond to this post, you do so of your own freewill, and intension.
So you have to include intention.

The reason being free will are the words used by theists when making excuses as to why their made up God obviously cares so little about his supposed creation.

I am not aware of such excuses.
I for one, never make those types of excuses, so perhaps you can tailor your points to this theist.

There is no reason the ability you lable intention need change if your God took away the odd gift of free will.

Why not? They are inextricably linked, as I already said.

Perhaps the first thing we need to ask is, if your God wanted to could he remove free will and do what I suggest?

When you say "we", I take it you mean atheists?

Would it be in his power to change humans so killing and being cruel was prevented in a similar way to us trying to hold our breath and choose not to breath?

If you change humans, they're no longer humans.
As I said before, killing is one way living beings die. That's natural.
There are creatures that kill, but are not intentionally being cruel. Right? We don't object to that.
So yes it is in God's power to change humans, but not in the way that you think.

All you have done is demonstrate that a theist must defend the notion of free will rather than have to appologise to all the victims past and present.

Where have I defended that?
I never even brought up freewill. You did.

Without excuses please tell me why humans could not be programed not to kill or be cruel by your God.

Because they would no longer be humans.
Try and really take that in before you respond.

So with a fresh slate I ask why does God allow humans to kill and be cruel?

Because that level of intention is part of what it is to be human.
It is for the human being to not allow that.

You are not even trying Jan.

Can you please define God?
After you have done so, you will realise that I have a point.
However the chances are you will avoid answering, and my point would be made.

That clearly does not work.
It seems as though only God could stop the killing and cruelty.

Only humans can stop what they are doing.
You eat meat. Are you aware of the cruelty animals undergo, so that they can feed billions of people, when there are ways we can eat without causing such cruelty and killing?
Will you stop eating meat in the hope that one less subscriber helps to lessen the demand?
If you won't. Why won't you?

Millions suffer and all you ask is of me, so its all my fault.
Jan will you ever reach enlightenment?

Why didn't you answer the questions?

Anything to avoid addressing free will.

I've addressed it already.
Keep up Alex.

I am sure many humans believe they know but few admit they probably just make stuff up.

You avoided my questions again, Alex.

No, no and yes.

Yet you still kill, Alex.
Are you prepared to stop driving your car, to save lives?

You should refer to a text book the knowledge is available if you want to learn details of human evolvement history.

I have done, but I want to hear you explain it.
You brought it up, so elaborate if you can.

Er well yes but I am honest and focused on why I am an atheist just as you are focused on why you are a theist and believe you are honest.

But are you?
You make stuff up, and you avoid questions to keep your position.
I doubt you know why you're atheist. I think you only know that you are.

You just dont care about the victims Jan.

Sorry, I thought you could detect sarcasm.
Probably you can, but you decided to play that lame card.

Absolutely.

How about just one life destroyed if you drive your car. Would you stop?

Yes, dont want to,and yes.
Your avoidence suits me and lets me off further demonstration that I am on the money.

You're just babbling now.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Nobody is confusing observation with the reality observed. We're making the observation, not the reality.
The observation is that this claim by you: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God."
is false.

Why is it false?

Jan.

 

[iceaura]

Why is it false?

I don't know. I'm not responsible for the behavior of your God, or your posting of falsehoods about said behavior.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

So you have to include intention.

No. When the church talks of free will they do not mention intention.
My concern is with the doctrine of free will and how it is used as the excuse as to why the made up God allows cruelty and killing.

for one, never make those types of excuses, so perhaps you can tailor your points to this theist.

Great, so let me ask you why does God allow the killing and the cruelty in this world?

They are inextricably linked, as I already said.

Then I ask can your made up God change free will such that we dont kill and be cruel or at least extend free will to inoccents such that they have free will not to be victims?

When you say "we", I take it you mean atheists?

I take it that you know because you are a theist and I cant know because I am an atheist?
If not why cant you just answer my question.
I get confused by the impression I get that on the one hand your God can do everything yet on the other hand apparently does nothing.

If you change humans, they're no longer humans.

That is such a lame excuse Jan.
Do you suggest that we could not be better and still be human?
And I would welcome what you may call a different species that see a world without war, cruelty and suffering.
But I guess God gets off on the killing and cruelty as he allows it to continue.
Which really means we have no free will anyways but are mere pieces of meat killing and suffering for your Gods entertainment.
It is the way it is because he allows it right?

There are creatures that kill, but are not intentionally being cruel. Right? We don't object to that.

I do.
There must be a better way but clearly your made up God has no idea.
If there was a God he would do better.

o yes it is in God's power to change humans, but not in the way that you think

So you are aware his power is limited such that what I think would be a better world is beyond his power to deliver.
No problems I know there is no God so expecting him to change anything would be stupid the only thing that can change is mans interpretation of God which of course will not manifest any change in reality.

Where have I defended that?

So when you say that humans would not be humans if they did not have freewill you were not defending the notion of free will but simply making a statement, an impartial comment, an observation but certainly not in any way defending or supporting the notion of free will.
Fair enough.
I do understand Jan you simply do not get what I am trying to say which indicates enlightenment is still a long way off for you.

Try and really take that in before you respond

Ok let God make another species that does not kill or be cruel or at least allow free will to extend to victims so they can choose not to be killed or suffer.

It is for the human being to not allow that.

I guess you dont get out much or read outside the bible Jan but the reality is victims can not stop the killing or cruelty and they are human.
The idea of free will is an excuse run out to explain why God does nothing to prevent suffering and a poor excuse it is...sadly theists buy it, they have to as without it their made up God can only be seen as cruel and they can not have their invisable friend being a that way and still entertain the notion God loves them and cares about them.

However the chances are you will avoid answering, and my point would be made.

What point?
If you can not recall the many times I have presented my definition of God it is clear you stop listening the moment I start to speak.

Only humans can stop what they are doing.

Correct because there is no God so it is in the hands of humans entirely I get it now Jan.

Will you stop eating meat in the hope that one less subscriber helps to lessen the demand?

Yes I am working to giving up meat but for reasons other than a moral consideration.
Anyways why is it you turn attention away from my concerns about the massive scale of killing and cruelty such that you focus on relatively trivial aspects.
I am talkng about why God does nothing to prevent war and suffering and all you can roll out is how humans kill for food. Do you see there is a difference Jan? Allowing killng for food is somewhat tolerable but to bring it up into a discussion about the deaths of millions of inoccent victims suggest you really have little to offer on the central issue which is why God allows the killing of innocents and cruelty.
I understand why you can not engage the arguement because there is no arguement that can support the notion that killing and cruelty is a good thing.

Why didn't you answer the questions?

Rightly or wrongly I dont answer your questions that I consider are not designed to do more than subvert my sincere attempt to discuss matters.
Many of your questions seem as no more than your attempt to trip me up and when you take this approach I simply try not to play that game. I think if you were sincere you would not be taking the irrelevant question approach.
I am looking for answers it seems you are looking for questions.

I've addressed it already.
Keep up Alex.

I say you have not addressed the matter other than to offer questions that avoid really dealing with anything that I raise.
By saying to me to keep going I read that to mean you really cant offer anything and my continued questioning makes you feel uncomfortable as you to find the notion of free will difficult to swallow.

You avoided my questions again, Alex.

Why do you say that?
I cant even remember your questions presumably because I have rejected them on the basis they were designed to divert attention from the main issue of discussion which I remind you is why should we accept the notion, rather doctrine, of free will as reasonable.

Yet you still kill, Alex.
Are you prepared to stop driving your car, to save lives?

Jan it is not about me.
It is all about why God allows the current unacceptable situation to exist.
It is your made up God that needs to offer excuses not me.
I am not God.
I ask why your God permits a cruel world and you not being able to answer attempt to change focus to me and my ethics.
Let me refresh you on my ethic..I avoid killing and cruelty.
If I could I would prevent all cruelty and killing.

I have done, but I want to hear you explain it.
You brought it up, so elaborate if you can.

As I suggested get a text book.
How I interprete the subject is of no relevance.
You read about it and form your own view.

You make stuff up, and you avoid questions to keep your position.

And I could say the same to you.
But if you say such to me be specific otherwise I can only regard your words as an attempt to avoid the issue which is why the notion of free will is no more than a poor excuse for your God allowing killing and cruelty.

I doubt you know why you're atheist. I think you only know that you are.

Irrelevant observation and I say...who cares?

Sorry, I thought you could detect sarcasm.
Probably you can, but you decided to play that lame card.

Well I saw your effort at humour but I simply felt humour inappropriate.
Some things dont lend themselves to humour and I suggest killing and cruelty are good examples of inappropriate subject matter.

How about just one life destroyed if you drive your car. Would you stop?

When you attempt to reduce an arguement to the ridiculous often you only make yourself appear ridiculous and I suggest your attempt here illustrates that point.

The question remains why theists accept the free will notion when clearly it is just more made up stuff.
Why dont we cut it down to... God loves you so much he gives you the right to kill and be cruel but does not extend free will to victims such that they can say I choose not to be a victim.

You're just babbling now.

Of course its babbling Jan but hidden in my words you may find something that will make your journey to eightenment more interesting.

So I can see you are preoccupied with the notion of free will which is good because it needs to be thought about and indeed questioned but the thread was really to consider the questions I hold about the notion many hold that there is an intelligent designer.
From all I have read the proponents of intelligent design claim that as they are being scientific they can not comment on who the designer may be so I simply ask who designed the designer.
I think man designed the designer in much the same way he designed your God but again it is not about what I think as I am i terested in promoting a discussion that may bring out stuff I have not heard about.
What are your thoughts?
Alex

 

[Beer w/Straw]

So I can see you are preoccupied with the notion of free will

I wasn't going to reply in this thread, but anyway... An answer I've heard is that bad things happen because of our free will.

To which I'd ask the question: WTF is the point for a God creating life in the first place?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I wasn't going to reply in this thread, but anyway...

It ok if you dont let the frustration of working through the nonsense get to you.
And it does not matter what logic or fact you present you will not change anyones existing beliefs.
So long as one realises it is no more than an exercise to fill in time until you actually need to deal with reality you will not be disappointed.

WTF is the point for a God creating life in the first place?

Life generally so man can hold dominion over it, and man specifically so he can worship God.
Why a God needs to be worshipped I dont know but a made up one certainly does need to be worshipped.

It all makes sense when you realise men create gods and there are no gods to create men.

Most religions are a system to present sex as sinful and make humans feel guilt for responding to natural and normal needs and to instill a deep seeded guilt that screws up normal thinking and action.
I have heard one say God gave us clothes to shield us from sin.
You would think God would have been better to have left genitals out of his creation if he was so concerned about sinful sex.

The most a rational thinking person can understand is how the notion of religion grew from primative superstition and general ignorance as to how the world works and involving that general superstition with observation of movements of the Sun, the Moon, the planets and grouping stars to suggest they represented something more, the constalations, when they are no more than groups of stars.
Sadly those driven by guilt as to their sinfulness can not seem to muster any measure of rationality to work out they have been conned from and early age such that to embrace reality would mean they must admit they have been not only wrong but stupid up to the point in time they shook off all manufactured guilt and faced the reality that is all about them. Few can, few do and so superstition pollutes humanity.

Unfortunately some will never realise the guilt they feel has been manufactured and placed in them to ensure they can be controlled and manipulated.

Folk have God creating everything because they have no real answer so they make something up.

Something good..well God did that.
Something bad happens..the devil made you sin.
And if it doesnot make any sense at all...God works in mysyerious ways.

Old explanations and stories over 2000 years old and yet modern educated humans still refuse to involve critical analysis which is strange, sad but really unforgivable.

Alex

 

[Michael 345]

Why a God needs to be worshipped I dont know

Yes you do know

gods need to be worshipped so they remain happy. When gods are happy they are benevolent

Just enough rain to grow crops, not to much to flood the fields

It appears gods are not content with being obnipitant they need reminding of the fact

Thought bubble, do all gods have god Alzheimer's?
That's all we need Alzheimic gods

Mind you (no pun intended) it might explain why gods have such weird behaviour

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Thought bubble, do all gods have god Alzheimer's?

It is probably a case of just so much to remember.
The history of every single human would be a challenge, and just all the stars and gallaxies and even other life forms he may have created.
I wonder do believers think there is life elsewhere or not.
I guess it would be hard to think there could be others and if so why did he create them ...well if there is we can only say God works in mysterious ways...well really the great thing about religion you can make up any story you like without fear of being proved wrong.

Bring back human sacrifice I say, clearly a human sacrifice would have to impress a God who must be worshipped.
In fact given an afterlife awaits why not jump on the fire unaided and create a great impression and get a place of preference in the next life.
Have you decided what you are going to do in your next life?
Do we get a choice or is it already laid out in Gods plan and if it is laid out does that contradict free will.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

Bring back human sacrifice I say, clearly a human sacrifice would have to impress a God who must be worshipped.
In fact given an afterlife awaits why not jump on the fire unaided and create a great impression and get a place of preference in the next life.
Have you decided what you are going to do in your next life?
Do we get a choice or is it already laid out in Gods plan and if it is laid out does that contradict free will.

Think we touched on sacrifice before
Scapegoat idea, let jc go to the cross, ipso facto, everybody else gets a free pass for their sins
I don't think theist have twigged that. Still running around being Chicken Little with the falling sky "we're all doomed I tell you. DOOMED"
Hey guys READ THE BOOK, YOUR OFF THE HOOK
As for us doing sacrifice, just god liking to know (Alzheimer's at work) we are on the same tick sheet of "the plan"
I frequently think he's turned over more than one sheet and missed a few steps

Have you decided what you are going to do in your next life?

Really no. Choices when I'm dead? Well I really don't care. The two main choices rot or burn are much of a muchness. If anybody can use any bits - help yourself to what you want / need

 

[river]

Think we touched on sacrifice before
Scapegoat idea, let jc go to the cross, ipso facto, everybody else gets a free pass for their sins
I don't think theist have twigged that. Still running around being Chicken Little with the falling sky "we're all doomed I tell you. DOOMED"
Hey guys READ THE BOOK, YOUR OFF THE HOOK
As for us doing sacrifice, just god liking to know (Alzheimer's at work) we are on the same tick sheet of "the plan"
I frequently think he's turned over more than one sheet and missed a few steps

Have you decided what you are going to do in your next life?

Really no. Choices when I'm dead? Well I really don't care. The two main choices rot or burn are much of a muchness. If anybody can use any bits - help yourself to what you want / need

not a free pass , just stuck in a loop of growth of the soul .

 

[Jan Ardena]

My concern is with the doctrine of free will and how it is used as the excuse as to why the made up God allows cruelty and killing.

No. Your concern is to score points.

Great, so let me ask you why does God allow the killing and the cruelty in this world?

God doesn't ''allow'' killing and cruelty in this world. ''Killing'' is a natural part of the world, and humans allow cruelty to take place.

Then I ask can your made up God change free will such that we dont kill and be cruel or at least extend free will to inoccents such that they have free will not to be victims?

I don't know what you mean by ''my made up God''. Can you elaborate?

I take it that you know because you are a theist and I cant know because I am an atheist?

It's not due to being theist. You cannot know something that you're not aware of.
The question is already answered.

I get confused by the impression I get that on the one hand your God can do everything yet on the other hand apparently does nothing.

If you're concerned that God could stop freewill, then you must accept, at least on some level, that God has the power to change freewill. So I don't buy your confusion.
You just want to justify your amnesia atheism.
But you are most likely confused, being an atheist and not knowing why you are, only that you are.

That is such a lame excuse Jan.

Why is it?

Do you suggest that we could not be better and still be human?

What is ''better'' in your eyes?
Plus, why does it matter to you the humans kill, and are cruel?
Where in your world view can you know that it is wrong, as opposed to right?
By what standard do you determine right and wrong, good and evil?

And I would welcome what you may call a different species that see a world without war, cruelty and suffering.

Based on what?

But I guess God gets off on the killing and cruelty as he allows it to continue.

Does this help you remain atheist?

I do.
There must be a better way but clearly your made up God has no idea.
If there was a God he would do better.

What makes you think, God (your God as well), is made up?

I guess you dont get out much or read outside the bible Jan but the reality is victims can not stop the killing or cruelty and they are human.

People can stop murdering and being cruel.
The problem is, we humans have made society the way it is, not God.
There are prescribed ways for humans to live a successful life, but most of the time we choose a different path, because we think we want to, and can be
independent from God. Now that we have messed up, the most rebellious of us asks, ''where is God now''? Almost happy that mankind has sunken so that he can play his card.
No care for understanding, or comprehension of the real situation.

Correct because there is no God so it is in the hands of humans entirely I get it now Jan.

You're an atheist.
You've no choice but to come to this, or similar conclusions.

Anyways why is it you turn attention away from my concerns about the massive scale of killing and cruelty such that you focus on relatively trivial aspects.

Okay. So the mass scale killing, and cruelty of animals, is not the real focus of attention. You're only concern is what humans do to each other?

I shouldn't be surprised, because ultimately, it appears as though killing and cruelty doesn't matter to you (as long as it doesn't affect you), because there is no standard by which you can measure what is right and what is wrong. You are only concerned with scoring points (and even then...)

I am talkng about why God does nothing to prevent war and suffering and all you can roll out is how humans kill for food. Do you see there is a difference Jan?

So the suffering of animals is of no concern?
Surprise! Surprise!
If can't see that killing and cruelty, is the same regardless of the species that are victimised, then what are you arguing about.

Jan it is not about me.

Of course it's about you Alex.
You're the one doing the enquiring.
Who else is it about?

It is all about why God allows the current unacceptable situation to exist.

But you kill Alex. You allow cruelty to take place in this world.
Think Alex. Could you stop taking as many lives as you do, simply by changing your lifestyle?
Could you help reduce the slaughter of innocent creatures, by doing something to decrease the demand?
The answer is ''Yes'' you could if you wanted to. But you don't want to.
That is the problem Alex, we don't want to.

It is your made up God that needs to offer excuses not me.

What is a made up God?

I ask why your God permits a cruel world and you not being able to answer attempt to change focus to me and my ethics.

God is your God too, you've simply forgotten.

Let me refresh you on my ethic..I avoid killing and cruelty.
If I could I would prevent all cruelty and killing.

No you don't.

Then make a start right now by not driving your car, and cease eating meat, fish, or eggs.

As I suggested get a text book.
How I interprete the subject is of no relevance.
You read about it and form your own view.

So you're simply talking nonsense.
No probs.

Irrelevant observation and I say...who cares?

It's not irrelevant. It is the reason you think the way you think.
It gives reason the terminologies ''theist and atheist''.
An atheist just isn't a label that someone gives to themselves, it is a fundamental position.
You have no idea why you're atheist, yet you defend it as though it is a correct position.
Why do you do that?

Some things dont lend themselves to humour and I suggest killing and cruelty are good examples of inappropriate subject matter.

But it could be humorous if you wanted it to be. Right?
What would be wrong, from your perspective, with killing and cruelty being humorous?

When you attempt to reduce an arguement to the ridiculous often you only make yourself appear ridiculous and I suggest your attempt here illustrates that point.

I don't mind looking ridiculous to you, or any atheist on here.

Now please can you answer the question. It's an important one.

The question remains why theists accept the free will notion when clearly it is just more made up stuff.
Why dont we cut it down to... God loves you so much he gives you the right to kill and be cruel but does not extend free will to victims such that they can say I choose not to be a victim.

That's a question from someone who doesn't know what theism is, and have forgotten God. Learn to crawl before you walk.
Stop trying to score points, and respond to my responses. That way you may learn something.

Of course its babbling Jan but hidden in my words you may find something that will make your journey to eightenment more interesting.

You like that word. Don't you? Enlightenment.
If you want to find enlightenment, then don't dodge questions.

From all I have read the proponents of intelligent design claim that as they are being scientific they can not comment on who the designer may be so I simply ask who designed the designer.

Which designer?
You need to clarify that first.

I think man designed the designer in much the same way he designed your God but again it is not about what I think as I am i terested in promoting a discussion that may bring out stuff I have not heard about.

You think that because you are defending your atheism, even though you're not entirely sure why.

What are your thoughts?

Don't dodge my questions, and find out.

jan.