Which god?
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Here's something interesting about the recent tsunami. It has been called a global disaster in the news and people like Tony Blair and Kofi Annan. Even though "only" 150 000 people lost their lives, few would disagree with this assessment. It affects the whole world.
Yet in a few hundred (not to mention thousand) years, no geophysical evidence of any "global disaster" at the turn of the millennium will be found. Will they dismiss it as just another event in history, blown out of proportion by those personally affected, but otherwise rather insignificant and meaningless? How many people have to die before it shakes us out of our apathy? Why do we treat the present with such indignant concern, but the past with the same kind of indifferent detachment as we regard the last Ice Age?
We like to point to all the atrocities of the past, blaming God, religion, politics and evil men from our assumed position of innocence and civilized aristocratic superiority. But the truth is that we treat everything with agnostic indifference - including God.
How would the ancient inhabitants of Mesopotamia have been affected by the cataclysmic flooding of the region? How did we expect their authorities and writers would report it?
Are we sure we have listened to the content of those ancient newsflashes? Have we heard what they wanted to tell us? I have found a possible clue that might help our understanding -- using their language:
People ask, where is justice, where is God's refuge? But where did God say His refuge lies in nature, or in our innocence?
Why do we think that the mere fact that we are alive makes us untouchable, somehow exempt from the same fate? Why do we think our lives, health and happiness are the supreme evidence of justice and deserved life? Is it not grace while we live? And aren't we destined for the same fate by different means?
Yet in a few hundred (not to mention thousand) years, no geophysical evidence of any "global disaster" at the turn of the millennium will be found. Will they dismiss it as just another event in history, blown out of proportion by those personally affected, but otherwise rather insignificant and meaningless? How many people have to die before it shakes us out of our apathy? Why do we treat the present with such indignant concern, but the past with the same kind of indifferent detachment as we regard the last Ice Age?
We like to point to all the atrocities of the past, blaming God, religion, politics and evil men from our assumed position of innocence and civilized aristocratic superiority. But the truth is that we treat everything with agnostic indifference - including God.
How would the ancient inhabitants of Mesopotamia have been affected by the cataclysmic flooding of the region? How did we expect their authorities and writers would report it?
* * *
Are we sure we have listened to the content of those ancient newsflashes? Have we heard what they wanted to tell us? I have found a possible clue that might help our understanding -- using their language:
Isaiah 28
You boast,
"We have entered into a covenant
with death, with the Grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood our hiding place."
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding place.
Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the Grave will not stand.
When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
you will be beaten down by it.
As often as it comes it will carry you away;
morning after morning, by day and by night,
it will sweep through."
In other words, "you have declared yourself untouchable, even by death -- this is a lie that will be wiped away morning after morning, by day and by night, every time death sweeps through".You boast,
"We have entered into a covenant
with death, with the Grave we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehood our hiding place."
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.
I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding place.
Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the Grave will not stand.
When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
you will be beaten down by it.
As often as it comes it will carry you away;
morning after morning, by day and by night,
it will sweep through."
People ask, where is justice, where is God's refuge? But where did God say His refuge lies in nature, or in our innocence?
Isaiah 28:11
Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"-
but they would not listen.
Right now, there are people who are able to provide help and support to the victims. Most questions revolve around whether they deserved it or not. How many wonder who will help us when something happens? The third world? Who will help us when a truly global disaster strikes? Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"-
but they would not listen.
Why do we think that the mere fact that we are alive makes us untouchable, somehow exempt from the same fate? Why do we think our lives, health and happiness are the supreme evidence of justice and deserved life? Is it not grace while we live? And aren't we destined for the same fate by different means?
Luke 13 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them -- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
If mere water can effectively sweep away our concepts of "justice" and "fairness" -- if death sweeps away our hopes and faith morning after morning -- aren't we without justice, hope and faith? We cling to love, "that will last", we say... yet we wait to show it after disaster has wiped away everything else. Money, possessions, holiday destinations. We're empoverished, third world lovers. How long will we wait before we build something lasting, before we start building on rock and storing our treasures in heaven?Luke 6:46-
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
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I don't get this.
Firstly, Planet Earth is a "dangerous and unfair" place only if you don't believe in evolution and science in general.
If you do believe in science -- then how is it possible that something is unfair? It is just "a certain distribution of events".
Secondly, as far as our Solar System goes, a planet must be of a certain kind so that it enables life to thrive on it. One of those characteristics is an active core which eventually causes earthquakes and tsunamis to happen.
If you want life on a planet -- then you have to take the "whole package", which includes active volcanoes, earthquakes, storms, etc. etc. This is how it goes, in this Universe.
And yet many people wish that Planet Earth were a peacful place, like the Moon. Apparently, life and that sort of geological peace don't go along.
What is more, based on that wishful thinking, some people say Planet Earth *should be* a peacful place (without storms and earthquakes and all that) -- and if it isn't, well, then it must be someone's fault.
And who else is more appropriate to blame than some God?!
Firstly, Planet Earth is a "dangerous and unfair" place only if you don't believe in evolution and science in general.
If you do believe in science -- then how is it possible that something is unfair? It is just "a certain distribution of events".
Secondly, as far as our Solar System goes, a planet must be of a certain kind so that it enables life to thrive on it. One of those characteristics is an active core which eventually causes earthquakes and tsunamis to happen.
If you want life on a planet -- then you have to take the "whole package", which includes active volcanoes, earthquakes, storms, etc. etc. This is how it goes, in this Universe.
And yet many people wish that Planet Earth were a peacful place, like the Moon. Apparently, life and that sort of geological peace don't go along.
What is more, based on that wishful thinking, some people say Planet Earth *should be* a peacful place (without storms and earthquakes and all that) -- and if it isn't, well, then it must be someone's fault.
And who else is more appropriate to blame than some God?!
It's pretty obvious that there is a narrow band of circumstances in which a plant can be formed that will be suitable for life as we know it. There is also a narrow band of physical characteristics for a star to provide the necessary environment for that planet. For us to be here discussing this matter is pure serendipity. Nothing more, nothing less!
I also submit that the Drake Formula need to be revisited since it seems, at least to me, to be a little too generous.
I also submit that the Drake Formula need to be revisited since it seems, at least to me, to be a little too generous.
Godless said:
I am the evidence. I don't remember my birth and I will not see my death, because I am eternal. I can't imagine the time when I wasn't here, because I've always been here. Only the body needs to begin and end because it belongs to such world. There is only one me, and one God.
If I wouldn't have always been here, I couldn't be "reading" these things. Every day when you see someone, you see only "me". You think there are many Me's here but I am the only one in this forum, even you are me. I've picked different names, so you think the names separate "me". It's the same "me" that expresses itself through everything. Time does not have a selfgoverning existence, but it exists in the mind, which comes from the body.
marv said:
OR inane understanding....
what i feel he is saying is this....that, for example you are aware. do you agree?
i am aware. i know i am so i dont have to agree.
if we both can see, hear, taste, touch, feel, alright then we can kind of know what awareness is like for the other person
those who have sensual deficiency in one area, like blindness usually hav it emphasiszed in another sense like touch, hearing etc
so. we are all aware. the dog, bird, worm, cat, donkey are all aware
i actually think all matter is sentient. but i dont want to freak you out TOO much....yet..hehe
so we all all uniquely aware-ing.
so 'you' dies. what happens?
this would mean analyzing what 'you' is and means.
isn't 'you' partly what you know about yourself, where you live, your likes and dislikes, your dreams regrets, life experience and potential for change. all that is you. if another you said they like the colour 'green' you might say 'ohhh, i HATE that colour!"...so that's mean you have some kind of egoic boundary in that you dont like green like the other.....a different flava of awareness
now, If you were to take later an halluinogen, your awareness may expand, so all of a sudden you wouldn't only LIKE green, etc etc, you would experience about it in a deep way. thus your sense of yourself/your egoic boundary has dissolved somewhat
isn't that death then?
and isn't awareness this frisky eternal awarnessingness?
However, the "self" never dies.
Where did the 'self' come from? How many 'selfs' exist? Why was the 'self' never born and will never die? Where are the 'selfs' that will become people? What is the point of the 'self' to exist for only a short time on Earth?
I am the evidence. I don't remember my birth and I will not see my death, because I am eternal.
That is a very obvious contradiction. If eternal, you would view your own birth and death. Hence, you are NOT eternal.
I can't imagine the time when I wasn't here, because I've always been here.
You weren't here before your birth and you won't be here after your death, aside from the remains.
Only the body needs to begin and end because it belongs to such world.
What other world is there and how do you know of it?
There is only one me, and one God.
Or, there is only one you and no gods.
Where did the 'self' come from? How many 'selfs' exist? Why was the 'self' never born and will never die? Where are the 'selfs' that will become people? What is the point of the 'self' to exist for only a short time on Earth?
I am the evidence. I don't remember my birth and I will not see my death, because I am eternal.
That is a very obvious contradiction. If eternal, you would view your own birth and death. Hence, you are NOT eternal.
I can't imagine the time when I wasn't here, because I've always been here.
You weren't here before your birth and you won't be here after your death, aside from the remains.
Only the body needs to begin and end because it belongs to such world.
What other world is there and how do you know of it?
There is only one me, and one God.
Or, there is only one you and no gods.
Where did the 'self' come from? How many 'selfs' exist? Why was the 'self' never born and will never die? Where are the 'selfs' that will become people? What is the point of the 'self' to exist for only a short time on Earth?
Only things which belong to the material world, the world of duality, must begin somewhere. To come into being means that it has not always existed. There is only one self, one existence. It is the same self which speaks through me as it speaks through you. Persons are only masks behind which people hide their true faces. "I" am located nowhere, yet "I" am within everyone.
The self has been imprisoned in a body since man obeys the law of the body. The body is a tool made for the self, but man, the creature, has started to obey the tool. The self doesn't exist specifically on the earth, but everywhere. The real, divine self is in "itself" complete and does not need to be born or to die, to gain experience. The body needs to advance so that it can express "me" (truth) more and more exactly.
If eternal, you would view your own birth and death. Hence, you are NOT eternal.
If the eternal had a beginning and an end, it wouldn't be eternal.
You weren't here before your birth and you won't be here after your death, aside from the remains.
I too would hope that "life" and all suffering would end after the bodily death.
What other world is there and how do you know of it?
There is no world other than the material world. This world doesn't have a self-governing existence, but it's dependant on the self.
All things are within me and I fill the whole universe with my being.
Or, there is only one you and no gods.
The self is the same as God. All Deities, characteristics, are only aspects of one "I".
Only things which belong to the material world, the world of duality, must begin somewhere. To come into being means that it has not always existed. There is only one self, one existence. It is the same self which speaks through me as it speaks through you. Persons are only masks behind which people hide their true faces. "I" am located nowhere, yet "I" am within everyone.
The self has been imprisoned in a body since man obeys the law of the body. The body is a tool made for the self, but man, the creature, has started to obey the tool. The self doesn't exist specifically on the earth, but everywhere. The real, divine self is in "itself" complete and does not need to be born or to die, to gain experience. The body needs to advance so that it can express "me" (truth) more and more exactly.
If eternal, you would view your own birth and death. Hence, you are NOT eternal.
If the eternal had a beginning and an end, it wouldn't be eternal.
You weren't here before your birth and you won't be here after your death, aside from the remains.
I too would hope that "life" and all suffering would end after the bodily death.
What other world is there and how do you know of it?
There is no world other than the material world. This world doesn't have a self-governing existence, but it's dependant on the self.
All things are within me and I fill the whole universe with my being.
Or, there is only one you and no gods.
The self is the same as God. All Deities, characteristics, are only aspects of one "I".
wasnt this post about poseidon or something? how did we get to talking about yorda's godhead?
???
???
Yorda said:
And this is THe big premise-problem, the soddin 'God' on high, transcendent. all the confusion begins when you separate and deify energy as being ABOVE Nature, ABOVE matter, ABOVE the body.
Now, i am not trying to kill the magic. of course i believe in spirituality, and DEEP
and direct experience. But i aslo am VERy wary of any belief that begins deifying that aspect and at the same time denigrating Nature and the physical body, as though they are mere receptacles for the 'spirit'
There is no above or below. "Opposites" are two complementary sides of one spectrum. Matter is also energy, just like spirit is. God is not "energy" though, he is that which binds all opposites together and gives them an existence. In reality, there is nothing except God. He rests himself between two mirrors. The human mind is what creates the universe and all things in it. When you see, you are in a dualistic position, but when you are something, when you are what you really are, then you are in a divine reststate.
Matter is a creation of the mind and it should be respected because it's also a divine creation. But if man obeys the law of matter, he makes the matter alive, and this is called satan. Every law in its right place and time is divine. Satan is a necessary natural law which rests dead in matter and affects in a divine manner until man with his spirit makes it alive and obeys the law in its wrong place and time.
Truly I tell you, the body is the temple of the self. There are no miracles or magic, only things that we yet don't understand. People don't know that the things they call miracles are as natural as everything else, or that the everyday-things they consider as natural are as miraculous than everything else.
Matter is a creation of the mind and it should be respected because it's also a divine creation. But if man obeys the law of matter, he makes the matter alive, and this is called satan. Every law in its right place and time is divine. Satan is a necessary natural law which rests dead in matter and affects in a divine manner until man with his spirit makes it alive and obeys the law in its wrong place and time.
Truly I tell you, the body is the temple of the self. There are no miracles or magic, only things that we yet don't understand. People don't know that the things they call miracles are as natural as everything else, or that the everyday-things they consider as natural are as miraculous than everything else.
(Q)
That is my belief, yes.
Yes.
I haven't. Nature acts according to laws, or rules and regs, and what happened was an act of nature. God may be the cause of nature and its laws, but He did not "murder" those people, they died because of an act of nature. Nature acts a certain, which is what makes it "nature".
You already have by using the term "murderer", "murderous", and being "arbitarily fickle." You're just so emotional, you didn't realise.
How could God possibly murder any body, as He is the cause of nature, which includes every person?
In genesis He brings a lifeless body to life, by breathing into its nostril, how is it possible for Him to murder a person when the person is a part of Himself (life)?
I believe in God, and believe it to be a foolish question.
Yes, it would seem hypocritical to you, because your heart and mind is closed to God, even though deep down, you are a theist. My advise to you is, try and understand what and who God is, instead of blocking it out.
Jan Ardena.
That is my belief, yes.
Yes.
I haven't. Nature acts according to laws, or rules and regs, and what happened was an act of nature. God may be the cause of nature and its laws, but He did not "murder" those people, they died because of an act of nature. Nature acts a certain, which is what makes it "nature".
You already have by using the term "murderer", "murderous", and being "arbitarily fickle." You're just so emotional, you didn't realise.
How could God possibly murder any body, as He is the cause of nature, which includes every person?
In genesis He brings a lifeless body to life, by breathing into its nostril, how is it possible for Him to murder a person when the person is a part of Himself (life)?
I believe in God, and believe it to be a foolish question.
Yes, it would seem hypocritical to you, because your heart and mind is closed to God, even though deep down, you are a theist. My advise to you is, try and understand what and who God is, instead of blocking it out.
Jan Ardena.