Which god?

cole said:
any "proof" of God's existence needs to be made, or can be made for that matter, any time soon.
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exactly cole, so why believe, in something that clearly, can not be proven to exist.
it defys common sense, does it not.

incidently, I have no false ideas, I dont need to have proof, I know it does not exist, I dont abhor anything or anybody, hate is not in my being, I can dislike something but not hated, I just dont understand the believers logic, it confuses the hell out of me.
how a believer can say, there god is love on the one hand, and there god allows it's followers to die horrible deaths, on the other, go figure.
and according to there religious books, killed a few it's self.
 
mis-t,

I hope you don't feel that I was attacking you. I wasn't saying YOU had false ideas, but rather that you were using other people's false ideas about God to attack God's existence.
The use of "abhor" and "hate" was just a quick, and poor, choice of language on my part. I have never gotten a tone of meanness from any post of yours I've read, and I hope that, even though I am not agreeing with the validity of this particular method of trying to show that God does not exist, you can understand my intentions are positive in a way that Godless did not.

Why "believe" if your common sense tells you not to? I'm not even sure it is possible. I just aspire to having the "believer's logic", as you call it, confuse the hell out of me...
 
No need to apolegize, I was not angry.

The argument of evil may not be a good retort to disprove an all mighty deity.

However when theist claim that this deity is "omnibonevolent" all good, it sounds like a load of crap, because "evil" does exist. So what is all good by watching a child suffer, that you are not?. or that naturally tragedy accur that wipes out thousands of people. That you were not a victim?. Does this show omnibonevolence?. It renders the claim,"all good" To BS by other people does it not?.

Godless.
 
EXACTLY...this is what you "believers" and/or fundamentalist believers in an ALL-GOOD n' PURE solar-he-GOD DO. is.....get yourselves in the T R A P of THEN having to explain just HOW an all-good god can be reponsible for evil. not being able to do that you then create A 'devil', and then suggest this little devil can one old day be 'deafeated'

you did all this by positing an all-ggod god in the FIRSt place. further, doing so makes you inevitably demonize NATURAL--what you NOw call evil--aging, death.....ANd the beHAVIOUR of people being enforced to live in the misery that such beliefs as your CAUSE. this applies also to the so-called secular materialstic world we are 'living' in, which is yet still locked in, albit unconsciously, to the divisve symbolism, and dogma of the Judaic-christian religion
 
ok, here's the deal.
Anyone who can explain to my satisfaction (I will be helping you, trying desperately to understand) that God is "all-good" gets 50$ from me. You can use religious writings to work with if you like, but any arguments that are self-referential (the link on 'godman is dead' thread with the radio host gives an example of this), will most likely disqualify you.
Just a decent reference to some ostensibly reliable source describing God as being "all-good" is worth 1$, but unless you get a certain amount (5$?) I am not going to bother sending it to you. Your reward will be in heaven.

The basic problems you will have to deal with are
1 the existence of evil in general
2 the presence of the devil in our world
3 the specific actions that were attributed to God, which could be considered "evil"
4. anything else you can think of that might help your case

If one of the pagans, or whoever, shows that there is no devil, which some have seemed to suggest, I will accept that as strong argument for #2 not being a problem at all.
Or, If jan wants to explain successfully that there isn't any evil as it seems Jan has trying to say to us, that would pretty much open the door to God being "all-good". Resulting in game over, leaving us with only the thoughts that were running through our heads... And someone running away with $50! ALSO, If we get going and it looks like we're getting somewhere, I could consider upping the study grant.
 
The self however, is the same as God.

That is your own personal view of god that has no bearing on anything or anyone. It is simply your imagination controlling your reality.

There is no explanation for how I know it.

Of course not. Ones imagination requires no explanation.

Questions like how and why belong to the cyclic world. Answers are illusions.

It appears you would much rather not learn anything at all.

I know what I know because I trust myself. It doesn't matter how true something is if it's not true for yourself.

Many things may appear true yet are not. You can look out your window and know and trust yourself that the world is flat.
 
If you had to force feed a sick cat, and it was later to analyze your actions by considering "anything negative, forceful, and otherwise unwanted" as immoral, it would not be able to call you "all-good" either. And it might never have the moral high ground from which to come to any other realization.
 
Jan, first you state:

God, I believe, is the original cause of all causes... and the workings of nature. An earthquake is a natural phenomena... that is natures way.

In other words, your god is the cause of natural phenomena; earthquakes. Then you state:

As I said, earthquakes are a natural phenomenon, as is birth, old-age, disease and death. ...you have already asigned blame to God for personally having a hand in the killing of those people without any regard to nature.

So, are natural phenomenon NOT of your gods doing? Once again, you contradict yourself.

I get the distinct impression that you blame God, personally, for the deaths of the victims, as though He did it out of spite and hate and completely overlooking nature.

I cite no reasoning for your gods murderous rampage - that is irrelavant.

If you have a problem with God, then that is between you and God

Your god has murdered tens of thousands of people - yes, I have a problem with that - you should too.

Your question; "why would you continue to worship him?" is a foolish question...

It would only be foolish to those who do not believe in god.

This thread was started to reveal, once again, the utter hypocrisy of religion. You are well on the way to confirming that hypocrisy with every contradiction you state.
 
If you had to force feed a sick cat, and it was later to analyze your actions by considering "anything negative, forceful, and otherwise unwanted" as immoral, it would not be able to call you "all-good" either.

If the cat had the intelligence to analyze, it would most likely have the intelligence to understand that force-feeding would save its life.

If the cat had the intelligence to analyze, it would consider you immoral for not having force-fed it and allowed it to die.

The same would hold true for a god who either caused or allowed tens of thousands to die.

If omnipotent, he would have the power to stop it.

If onmiscience, he could have reckoned a way to stop it.

If omnipresent, he would have watched the faces of each and every one of those people as they gasped their last breath.

It would appear that god is immoral and evil for allowing this to happen.

If instead, man were to take gods place on that day, would man have allowed those people to die so tragically?
 
(Q)

That is your own personal view of god that has no bearing on anything or anyone. It is simply your imagination controlling your reality.

The personal view is the only thing that matters, since I've never seen any other reality.

Of course not. Ones imagination requires no explanation.

Truth doesn't need explanations.

Many things may appear true yet are not. You can look out your window and know and trust yourself that the world is flat.

If I said that the world is flat, I would be lying to myself, since I believe that the world is spherical.
 
(Q) said:
If instead, man were to take gods place on that day, would man have allowed those people to die so tragically?
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Man is only good because God lives in him. Man, the creature, is the most exact expression of God in the material world. God has to kill through natural disasters so that the world could function. There is no other way of making a world than this way.
 
Fatalism and pre-destination seems to be at the heart of every religion. The gods are very convenient to hang our failures on (god has something else in store for me), the natural disasters (there is a message for us), or to simply excuse our disappointments (it was god's will).

I suppose that, a few wars and genocides aside, it probably hasn't been too terrible a trip for the human race. But I think we'll be much happier once we outgrow this need for deistic crutches.
 
God has to kill through natural disasters so that the world could function.

What world function has a requirement for dead people?

Why does god fulfill this requirement?

Do natural disasters include all of nature?
 
What world function has a requirement for dead people?

God doesn't make natural disasters to kill humans, but to keep a global order on earth. God doesn't see the world from a personal (dualistic) viewpoint, but from a universal (monistic) point which includes all things. God can't let the sun shine only on the "good", and not on the "bad".
That's the human way.

Light and darkness come from one stem. Every act in its right place and time is divine, and every act in its wrong place and time is satanic. Everything that is visible must have an end. All flesh dies. You humans are but fruits falling from a Tree. Once you leave the Tree, "you" start decaying.

Why does god fulfill this requirement?

Imagine a world without any "disasters", without destruction. How could such a world be possible? Bad things come from the mind, not from destruction itself. For if evil is destroyed, you are happy instead. But I say, take no thought on who is right or wrong, or better than.
Be not for or against.

Do natural disasters include all of nature?

Yeah, natural disasters is a part of nature.
 
Why is an earthquake of any magnitude a disaster? The magma has an equal opportunity right to churn and boil as it sees fit. So what if some of this flotsam we call the Earth's crust shifts a little and some plates collide. We just got in the way, that's all. There's plenty more of us.

Earthquakes aren't bad, they're just misunderstood.
 
Let's imagine you were offered, before birth, a sixty year long business trip. You would have a lot of fun, but would also probably experience a decent amount of pain. There is also a chance you won't get your full sixty years due to natural disaster. Would you accept? The other option is to enter back into the nothingness from which you came. Of course some people would get more pain, some would have more fun, but if everyone respects each other's rights and nobody starts any wars, especially no wars "in God's name", things will be pretty bearable for a very large percentage of the population.

In the end, how evil is God's "evil", compared to mankind's "evil"?

We should re-phrase the question, "why would a benevolent God make a species that can do so much evil?." At least then we can keep a proper perspective on the matter.

Next creation cycle, I'd like to choose existence as a dolphin on a planet with no humans. Now that would be PROOF of a benevolent God!

P.S. anyone who wants to think humans are super sweet, but the devil pushes them into evil doesn't believe in free-will, so I don't want any bible-bangers responding "god is good, humans are good, devil is bad", that is a waste of time.
 
Let's imagine you were offered, before birth, a sixty year long business trip. You would have a lot of fun, but would also probably experience a decent amount of pain. There is also a chance you won't get your full sixty years due to natural disaster. Would you accept?
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No!.

First it would take a lot of imagination that out of nothing I would be offered a trip "before birth".? :confused: Hypothetically I would rather be offered nothing, live, and let live, work for the welfare of my state, and of my benefit, hope that humanity would have solved most conflicts, within my life span, which by technological means, would be expanded a few hundred years. click

Godless.
 
Godless said:
No!.

First it would take a lot of imagination that out of nothing I would be offered a trip "before birth".? :confused: Hypothetically I would rather be offered nothing, live, and let live, work for the welfare of my state, and of my benefit, hope that humanity would have solved most conflicts, within my life span, which by technological means, would be expanded a few hundred years. click

Godless.
Click to expand...
You are not using any imagination at all. You are not "hypothetically" being offered nothing and then doing what you suggest. That is your reality. Imagination=0.
The idea of having a consciousness before or after physical existence on this earth is theorized about every day all around the world. As is the idea of the consciousness going into "non-existence" when not here on earth.
Being offered the choice to exist is obviously imaginative, which I why I used the word "imagine" in the first place.

My imaginary choice was just to try to figure out where evil's BLAME should fall.

If you don't believe in any type of God then you should see "evil" as being caused by humanity, or that there is no "evil" at all, so the question is already answered.
Just because you don't want to play the game I threw out there, don't try to disparage it. The game is - an almost idealistic earth where people didn't commit such violent evils against each other, or not existing, and you get to choose.

Also, thanks for the ref to that book, it looks very interesting.
 
God doesn't make natural disasters to kill humans, but to keep a global order on earth.

It sounds like god is running the world like a nazi concentration camp, except he has no preference as to who he kills.

God can't let the sun shine only on the "good", and not on the "bad".
That's the human way. [/]

But he kills the good along with bad for no reason. That's not the human way.

Light and darkness come from one stem. Every act in its right place and time is divine, and every act in its wrong place and time is satanic. Everything that is visible must have an end. All flesh dies. You humans are but fruits falling from a Tree. Once you leave the Tree, "you" start decaying.

Is this supposed to be your argument or has your imagination gone wild?

Imagine a world without any "disasters", without destruction.

... without gods.

How could such a world be possible?

It isn't possible, quite simply because gods don't exist. If gods existed, those dead might still be alive.

Are you starting to 'get it' now?
 
As is the idea of the consciousness going into "non-existence" when not here on earth.
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Consciousness goes no were my friend, after death your consciousness seize to exist any further, there's no such thing as life after death. Sad but true, this is the reason it's imperative for humans to evolve beyond physical death.



My imaginary choice was just to try to figure out where evil's BLAME should fall.
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Ok! we have covered that "evil" is some what vaque to describe. So I'll atempt to demonstrate what evil truly is.

1) Natural phenomenas such as earthquakes, tsunamis, etc..
These are inherently not evil, though these natural tragedies may bring harm, death, too hundreds and even thousands of people. The reason we see them as evil is our perception of the "suffering" this events bring to the unfortunate population that suffered the tragedy.

2) Evil done by people is truly what is evil.
Evil is not a force; it is a human value. There will be evil for as long as good people have faith in authority.
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You may read the rest of the above quote here

Godless.
 
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