When is it alright to hate?

[scott3x]

Something like racism is something that no one should have, I think. I think it's rather hard not to express it, don't you?

I'm not so willing to paint with a broad brush. Entirely depends on the person.

Alright. I certainly believe there are degrees of racism.

We're already talking, although you can, ofcourse, cease to do so at any time. Clearly I talk of other things besides 9/11 or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Aside from that, I firmly believe that discussing what happened on 9/11 is quite useful for humanity in general, but you are free to hold your own beliefs on the matter.

Knock off the bullshit. Please.

tak, listen to yourself. Please. Be civil, atleast.

And get a damn life.

I have one.

 

[scott3x]

It seems to me that people are defining 'hate' as 'dislike'. Hate is much much stronger though. I think it's very rare.

Hate's pretty intense. I define hate as this: If you really hate a person, you're perfectly willing to clash cymbals periodically over their head while they try to diffuse a bomb that's going to go off in their guts and make them die a painful death. Have I hated someone that bad? Ooooh yes.

This would explain a lot I think...

 

[takandjive]

Oh, stick it where the sun doesn't shine, Scott. Seriously.

It's a goddamn joke.

 

[takandjive]

tak, listen to yourself. Please. Be civil, atleast.

It's the internet, Scott. Faux civility is saved for job interviews. You are full of shit, and if anyone thinks you're not full of shit, let them come forward and say that with a straight face. :shrug:

I have one.

And I'm sure it's a magically deep fascinating one.

 

[scott3x]

Oh, stick it where the sun doesn't shine, Scott. Seriously.

It's a goddamn joke.

I... see.

 

[scott3x]

tak, listen to yourself. Please. Be civil, atleast.

It's the internet, Scott. Faux civility is saved for job interviews.

Are you implying that my civility is feigned?

You are full of shit, and if anyone thinks you're not full of shit, let them come forward and say that with a straight face. :shrug:

tak, you have a rather rough and tumble attitude, so I wouldn't be surprised if no one steps up to the plate but myself. This doesn't mean that your statement is correct, however.

I have one.

And I'm sure it's a magically deep fascinating one.

Sometimes .

 

[takandjive]

Are you implying that my civility is feigned?

WOW! You followed the trail of clues to the obvious conclusion. Run with it.

tak, you have a rather rough and tumble attitude, so I wouldn't be surprised if no one steps up to the plate but myself. This doesn't mean that your statement is correct, however.

Maybe everyone just finds you full of shit. No one else has a problem talking to me when I ask something.

 

[Norsefire]

Perhaps hate is simply simmering anger. Anyway, I don't think either are optimal; this doesn't mean, however that getting angry isn't helpful sometimes. The issue is more that if we were more advanced, we'd be able to accomplish things without anger or hate; however, we haven't gotten to this stage yet, and so at times it's a good thing I guess, just as it's better to have fire than nothing; but better still is generally an oven ;-). The old saying, 'revenge is a dish best served cold' is along the path that I consider good.

Anger, hate, emotion......these are the very things that give us direction and focus. We will never be able to accomplish anything without emotion.

Including love, and desire, and happiness. Emotions give us our strength. Even hate and anger.

In one of my favourite movies, Peter Brook's The Mahabharata, a man who could choose the day of his death said this to a warrior who wanted to fight:
"Can you fight without anger, without pride?"

Often it is because of anger or hate that we make achievements.

Elaboration: we only hate things which are not to our liking; not as we want them to be; not comfortable; not satisfactory. Thus, all that we hate, we want to get rid of.......and by doing so, we make the setting a bit more to our liking

Thus hatred is a motivating factor for improvement. At least, it can be.

 

[scott3x]

Are you implying that my civility is feigned?

WOW! You followed the trail of clues to the obvious conclusion. Run with it.

I have. But you're mistaken.

tak, you have a rather rough and tumble attitude, so it wouldn't be surprised if no one steps up to the plate but myself. This doesn't mean that your statement is correct, however.

Maybe everyone just finds you full of shit.

You're mistaken there.

No one else has a problem talking to me when I ask something.

tak, I don't scare easily, but you certainly intimidate me. And if I'm intimidated...

 

[scott3x]

Perhaps hate is simply simmering anger. Anyway, I don't think either are optimal; this doesn't mean, however that getting angry isn't helpful sometimes. The issue is more that if we were more advanced, we'd be able to accomplish things without anger or hate; however, we haven't gotten to this stage yet, and so at times it's a good thing I guess, just as it's better to have fire than nothing; but better still is generally an oven ;-). The old saying, 'revenge is a dish best served cold' is along the path that I consider good.

Anger, hate, emotion...... these are the very things that give us direction and focus. We will never be able to accomplish anything without emotion.

Hopefully we'll be able to use better emotions then anger/hate in the future to accomplish certain difficult tasks though

Including love, and desire, and happiness. Emotions give us our strength. Even hate and anger.

There are those, such as myself, who believe that hate/anger is a symptom of emotional pain. If one can see it for this, that is, emotional pain, instead of the symptom, the anger and hate, I think it's much better. However, there are points in time when it works better as anger, atleast to accomplish certain things. In the future, however, I think we'll be able to refine it so that we won't need to go through that stage of things.

In one of my favourite movies, Peter Brook's The Mahabharata, a man who could choose the day of his death said this to a warrior who wanted to fight:
"Can you fight without anger, without pride?"

Often it is because of anger or hate that we make achievements.

Yes, but as I was saying in the example of fire vs. oven, I think there are better ways, if only we could achieve them.

Elaboration: we only hate things which are not to our liking; not as we want them to be; not comfortable; not satisfactory. Thus, all that we hate, we want to get rid of.......and by doing so, we make the setting a bit more to our liking. Thus hatred is a motivating factor for improvement. At least, it can be.

Yes, but hate and anger can lead to suffering, as a certain small green guy said in Star Wars . In other words, if everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind. This is why I think that 'revenge is a dish best served cold'.

 

[Norsefire]

Hopefully we'll be able to use better emotions then anger/hate in the future to accomplish certain difficult tasks though

Why? Anger and hate are powerful emotions, they are just fine as motivating factors. Improvement is what matters, and anger and hate can be motivations for improvement.

There are those, such as myself, who believe that hate/anger is a symptom of emotional pain. If one can see it for this, that is, emotional pain, instead of the symptom, the anger and hate, I think it's much better. However, there are points in time when it works better as anger, atleast to accomplish certain things. In the future, however, I think we'll be able to refine it so that we won't need to go through that stage of things.

Anger and hate are responses to the world being not to your liking, or negative toward you. Thus, they motivate you to fix the problem.

I am not saying they cannot be destructive, because of course they can be....but they are not "bad", they are emotions and emotions give us our strength.

Yes, but hate and anger can lead to suffering, as a certain small green guy said in Star Wars . In other words, if everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind. This is why I think that 'revenge is a dish best served cold'.

Satisfaction, happiness....these things matter most. And perhaps we must address what we hate in order to achieve satisfaction and happiness. Thus, hate is neutral....and it can be a powerful motivation and source of strength. Ignoring your emotions is a handicap on the self. Embrace them, address them.......and be responsible with them.

 

[scott3x]

Hopefully we'll be able to use better emotions then anger/hate in the future to accomplish certain difficult tasks though

Why? Anger and hate are powerful emotions, they are just fine as motivating factors. Improvement is what matters, and anger and hate can be motivations for improvement.

Yes, but anger and hate are crude motivators. If you want to cook, a fire is certainly better than nothing, but a stove and cookware is generally better.

There are those, such as myself, who believe that hate/anger is a symptom of emotional pain. If one can see it for this, that is, emotional pain, instead of the symptom, the anger and hate, I think it's much better. However, there are points in time when it works better as anger, atleast to accomplish certain things. In the future, however, I think we'll be able to refine it so that we won't need to go through that stage of things.

Anger and hate are responses to the world being not to your liking, or negative toward you. Thus, they motivate you to fix the problem.

Agreed; however, one doesn't need to experience hate or anger to wish to fix problems.

I am not saying they cannot be destructive, because of course they can be....but they are not "bad", they are emotions and emotions give us our strength.

You're right, they're not bad per se; but I still see them as relatively primitive and something that I believe we'll improve out of.

Yes, but hate and anger can lead to suffering, as a certain small green guy said in Star Wars . In other words, if everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind. This is why I think that 'revenge is a dish best served cold'.

Satisfaction, happiness....these things matter most. And perhaps we must address what we hate in order to achieve satisfaction and happiness. Thus, hate is neutral....

It's neutral in the sense that hate itself doesn't think; rather, we are the ones that hate. However, I once again refer to my fire vs. stove analogy...

and it can be a powerful motivation and source of strength. Ignoring your emotions is a handicap on the self.

Oh I completely agree that ignoring your emotions is a recipe for disaster. Instead, I think it's better to look closely at one's emotions; and that if one looks deeply at one's anger and hate, one will see the pain beneath.

Embrace them, address them.......and be responsible with them.

In terms of embracing, I guess the best thing for me is to understand the reasons I have the faults I have, even as I try to address and fix them. For while it's good to be self critical, being too self critical can paralyze. And I certainly agree that one should be responsible for one's emotions, in the sense that one generally shouldn't deny them, atleast to oneself.

 

[oiram]

Hate is often only a symptom of a deeper problem, and when you really hate (rather than just disliking) then there are other deeper issues at play.

The 9/11 situation for example, I think what the hijackers did was terribly bad, but I don’t hate them for it, actually I have to feel a bit sorry that they either allowed themselves or someone else to fill them with so much hate that they became blinded to reality and carried out the horrific act.

 

[takandjive]

Hate is often only a symptom of a deeper problem, and when you really hate (rather than just disliking) then there are other deeper issues at play.

The 9/11 situation for example, I think what the hijackers did was terribly bad, but I don’t hate them for it, actually I have to feel a bit sorry that they either allowed themselves or someone else to fill them with so much hate that they became blinded to reality and carried out the horrific act.

Hate implies a deeper emotional attachment to the situation. Doesn't mean you're disturbed. I am sure if someone murdered a member of my family in a brutal way, I'd hate that person. If someone murders a member of your family, I'm unlikely to hate the killer. I'll just be horrified and sad for you. Makes me human.

 

[scott3x]

Hate is often only a symptom of a deeper problem, and when you really hate (rather than just disliking) then there are other deeper issues at play.

For me, dislike and hate are on a continuum; one blends into another and different people have different ideas as to what qualifies for one or the other. But I certainly agree that the stronger then antipathy, the deeper the issues.

The 9/11 situation for example, I think what the hijackers did was terribly bad, but I don’t hate them for it, actually I have to feel a bit sorry that they either allowed themselves or someone else to fill them with so much hate that they became blinded to reality and carried out the horrific act.

What truly happened that day is still very controversial. If you'd like to see a bit more on that, I suggest you take a look at the pseudoscience forum, where the debate goes on in the 9/11 poll thread.

 

[scott3x]

Hate is often only a symptom of a deeper problem, and when you really hate (rather than just disliking) then there are other deeper issues at play.

The 9/11 situation for example, I think what the hijackers did was terribly bad, but I don’t hate them for it, actually I have to feel a bit sorry that they either allowed themselves or someone else to fill them with so much hate that they became blinded to reality and carried out the horrific act.

Hate implies a deeper emotional attachment to the situation. Doesn't mean you're disturbed.

Would you atleast agree that if one hates, one is in emotional pain?

I am sure if someone murdered a member of my family in a brutal way, I'd hate that person. If someone murders a member of your family, I'm unlikely to hate the killer. I'll just be horrified and sad for you. Makes me human.

My strongest feelings of dislike are for those who have what I think I want and yet apparently don't wish to share. I am fully aware that the source of this dislike is the pain I feel from being rejected.

 

[takandjive]

Would you atleast agree that if one hates, one is in emotional pain?

No. One example is not representative of the whole. Some people have seething hatred about something and no "emotional pain."

My strongest feelings of dislike are for those who have what I think I want and yet apparently don't wish to share. I am fully aware that the source of this dislike is the pain I feel from being rejected.

I don't know where you got the idea I care how you feel.

That's not why I don't like certain people or things, though, and don't mistake your values, thoughts, and beliefs for my own.

 

[scott3x]

Would you atleast agree that if one hates, one is in emotional pain?

No. One example is not representative of the whole.

I believe this to be universal and not tied to any particular example.

Some people have seething hatred about something and no "emotional pain."

Can you cite a single example?

My strongest feelings of dislike are for those who have what I think I want and yet apparently don't wish to share. I am fully aware that the source of this dislike is the pain I feel from being rejected.

I don't know where you got the idea I care how you feel.

You really like cutting in to me don't you? Anyway, you came up with an example of what would make you hate someone, so I thought I'd come up with my closest equivalent. You and I aren't alone here tak; I certainly wasn't solely addressing you.

 

[oiram]

Hate implies a deeper emotional attachment to the situation. Doesn't mean you're disturbed. I am sure if someone murdered a member of my family in a brutal way, I'd hate that person. If someone murders a member of your family, I'm unlikely to hate the killer. I'll just be horrified and sad for you. Makes me human.

Yes this is true that you have a deeper emotional attachment if it happened to one of your own family members opposed to a stranger.

I have had a member of my family killed (A sibling) and I hated that it happened but to say I hated that it happened is much different than hating the person that did it. In the case of my murdered sibling what the person did who killed my sibling was bad, but the person was not bad. The action was what was bad. I am able to see this and understand this, although it won’t bring back my sibling and there is still pain, hurt, sadness and anger, hate doesn’t play any part for me.

 

[takandjive]

I believe this to be universal and not tied to any particular example.

The only rule that ever held true was that for every rule there are some situations that do not hold true.

Can you cite a single example?

A teacher once told my dyslexic brother he thought he was on drugs and retarded and that was his real problem, as was the problem of most Yankees. That's a hateful thing to say to a child, and it was said simply out of xenophobia from a southerner to a northerner. This asshole just thought southerners were morally superior. No bad experiences. You encounter it a lot where I grew up. These people don't meet outsiders often enough to have had bad experiences.

You really like cutting in to me don't you?

No. I don't care if you feel good, bad, or choke on your own vomit. You made the assumption in replying to me I gave a damn. I was just clarifying I don't.

Anyway, you came up with an example of what would make you hate someone, so I thought I'd come up with my closest equivalent.

I was talking to Oiram and explaining my assertion. Not going through my feelings like this is a therapy session as you feel compelled to do. I certainly won't stop you, but I don't see the good in it.

Yes this is true that you have a deeper emotional attachment if it happened to one of your own family members opposed to a stranger.

I have had a member of my family killed (A sibling) and I hated that it happened but to say I hated that it happened is much different than hating the person that did it. In the case of my murdered sibling what the person did who killed my sibling was bad, but the person was not bad. The action was what was bad. I am able to see this and understand this, although it won’t bring back my sibling and there is still pain, hurt, sadness and anger, hate doesn’t play any part for me.

I'm sorry you lost a family member, Oiram. I can't imagine the pain of a sibling dying; mine are my best friends.