Can you give some examples of things that affect you, but which you have no control over?
Perhaps not when it is at stage four, but given that treatment in earlier stages is moderately successful, we obviously do have some control over it.
What's the point of prayer.
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Can you give some examples of things that affect you, but which you have no control over?
Perhaps not when it is at stage four, but given that treatment in earlier stages is moderately successful, we obviously do have some control over it.
What do you "personally" have control of that does not employ some aspect, process or item of science, medicine, or any other ideology, technology etc.?
And what does this have to do with prayer?
Seems you just want a debate, no matter how far off topic.
My point was, prayer doesn't work... If you can prove that it does, please show me documented proof.
My point was that it all depends on what it is you ask for.
And then I pointed out how ill-defined some wishes are.
You brought up the issue of praying for things one has no control of.
And then I pointed out how that is a problematic concept as well.
You say it depends on what one asks for...
So, you're saying there is a list of things, that prayer WILL answer?
If so, could you give me an example or two please?
It seems to me that the pont of prayer is jus anuther form of "busy-work" to keep people involved to help insure that the donatons continue to roll in :shrug:
I may have but if so i dont recall it.!!!
I went to sunday school off an on from age 8 thru 11 year old... but that was for the cookies an cool aid an we woud do fun projects an sang fun songs an they woud tell us fun stories... but even at 8 i was suspecious that the Jesus stuff wasnt realy true... kinda like the Santa Clause stuff.!!!
I may have but if so i dont recall it.!!!
I went to sunday school off an on from age 8 thru 11 year old... but that was for the cookies an cool aid an we woud do fun projects an sang fun songs an they woud tell us fun stories... but even at 8 i was suspecious that the Jesus stuff wasnt realy true... kinda like the Santa Clause stuff.!!!
I think you have a better chance having a prayer answered by Santa.
I remember going to the department store as a kid, and telling Santa what I wanted.... And I got it!
Prayers to a so called "god" have never been answered in any way, shape, or form.
I remember going to the department store as a kid, and telling Santa what I wanted.... And I got it!
Prayers to a so called "god" have never been answered in any way, shape, or form.
I remenber when i was about 6 that 2 diferent department stores had a Santa at the sam time... it seemed kinda funny... as if the grown-ups had realy messed up an let the cat out of the bag that Santa wasnt real.!!!
One Christan told me that God answrs all prayer... an mos of the time the answr is NO.!!!
I stand corrected... I've gone my whole life believing "God" doesn't answer prayers..
Now I see he/she/it actually does... Only the answer is always NO.
So, I'll continue praying to Santa... Says yes, now and then.
Lol and every time I ask the wall a question it always answers me, it's just that the answer is always silence.
And every time I throw a ball at a rock on the ground so that the rock can throw the ball back to me, it always throws the ball back, but the way it throws it back is by not touching it and leaving it exactly where it fell.
And every time I try to fly, I fly, but my flight takes the form of staying on the ground.
It's amazing how everything is possible when nothing has to happen.
To put it simply: There is no point to prayer, (other than for a religious human to believe he has some help in the getting well of people he can't possibly be of help to).
An example:
The other day I was in GOSH (Great Ormond Street Hospital). There were two young children who were both very near death. As you would expect, families of both children were present. Both of those families were religious and prayed constantly with such emotion and genuine meaning for their children. One died, the other survived.
This inevitably leads us to a very sensible question:
Why did one die and the other survive even though both were prayed for?
There is only one answer to that question that theists will provide:
It was god's will - which is to say, it was god's will that girl A survive and god's will that girl B not survive but instead join him in the heavenly realm, (or go onto abject, eternal suffering depending).
Such answer instantly negates any value in praying. It would be completely inconsequential how much the family of girl B prayed, she'd still die, (it was god's will that it happen). They could pray until pigs fly, it wouldn't change anything. Likewise, the family of girl A could not bother praying at all. Instead they could sit at home eating curry, drinking beer and watching The Simpsons but their girl would still survive, (it was god's will that it happen). The act of praying is redundant and meaningless.
You will find the very same answer come up whenever prayer is the discussion. For instance, should you question the following:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
What do you think is the response? Yes, the christian denies the very clear statements of Jesus and instead opts to say: "It depends whether it's god's will or not". Jesus statements and prayer are both made redundant by the very claims of christians, (they'll usually cite a small passage in John that mentions god's will. They don't realise the inevitable outcome in doing so).
What they further fail to realise is that this inevitable outcome ends up in a cascade effect. Everything becomes meaningless and redundant - whether you pray or not. Will you survive until 100? It's god's will, it's irrelevant if you pray or work for it. Will you be rich and famous or poor and retarded? Again, it's inconsequential if you prayer for one or the other, it won't affect god's will.
Is there a resolution to this problem?
Perhaps there is. The theist might here backtrack and assert that god's will can be undone, that you can convince this god - through prayer - to change what would otherwise be his will. If this is the case, we need to go back to the original question. We now find that the answer to it is: The family of child B did not pray hard enough. . This has the outcome of also reconciling the statements found in Matthew and Mark - hence saving Jesus from being a liar.
It comes down to a case of truly believing when you pray and hence the Jesus given promise that you will receive it.
Unfortunately theists tend not to really believe but simply "believe in belief" as Dennett would say.
Regards,
An example:
The other day I was in GOSH (Great Ormond Street Hospital). There were two young children who were both very near death. As you would expect, families of both children were present. Both of those families were religious and prayed constantly with such emotion and genuine meaning for their children. One died, the other survived.
This inevitably leads us to a very sensible question:
Why did one die and the other survive even though both were prayed for?
There is only one answer to that question that theists will provide:
It was god's will - which is to say, it was god's will that girl A survive and god's will that girl B not survive but instead join him in the heavenly realm, (or go onto abject, eternal suffering depending).
Such answer instantly negates any value in praying. It would be completely inconsequential how much the family of girl B prayed, she'd still die, (it was god's will that it happen). They could pray until pigs fly, it wouldn't change anything. Likewise, the family of girl A could not bother praying at all. Instead they could sit at home eating curry, drinking beer and watching The Simpsons but their girl would still survive, (it was god's will that it happen). The act of praying is redundant and meaningless.
You will find the very same answer come up whenever prayer is the discussion. For instance, should you question the following:
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
What do you think is the response? Yes, the christian denies the very clear statements of Jesus and instead opts to say: "It depends whether it's god's will or not". Jesus statements and prayer are both made redundant by the very claims of christians, (they'll usually cite a small passage in John that mentions god's will. They don't realise the inevitable outcome in doing so).
What they further fail to realise is that this inevitable outcome ends up in a cascade effect. Everything becomes meaningless and redundant - whether you pray or not. Will you survive until 100? It's god's will, it's irrelevant if you pray or work for it. Will you be rich and famous or poor and retarded? Again, it's inconsequential if you prayer for one or the other, it won't affect god's will.
Is there a resolution to this problem?
Perhaps there is. The theist might here backtrack and assert that god's will can be undone, that you can convince this god - through prayer - to change what would otherwise be his will. If this is the case, we need to go back to the original question. We now find that the answer to it is: The family of child B did not pray hard enough. . This has the outcome of also reconciling the statements found in Matthew and Mark - hence saving Jesus from being a liar.
It comes down to a case of truly believing when you pray and hence the Jesus given promise that you will receive it.
Unfortunately theists tend not to really believe but simply "believe in belief" as Dennett would say.
Regards,
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Things that matter in the relationship between yourself and God.
This will differ much from one individual to another, of course.
You seem to equate change in purely materialistic terms (a new car, better health etc). Granted that there are popular views to such an outlook (ie the point of religion is to get "stuff" ... I even recall one prominent preacher who equated the degree that one is spiritual is the degree that one can get out there and acquire stuff), there are also numerous commentaries that critical of it (or at best relegate such anticipation to neophytes)
I see the problem here. If you equate change to materialistic things (since when is health materialistic by the way?), then those things are measurable. Which means those things can be statistically analysed. Which means that prayer can be shown to be pointless. It's probably best to stick to invisible unmeasurable things that result from prayer, that way you can claim that there are an abundance of those invisible things as a result of prayer and you can safely say you're never going to be proved wrong.
You've got it wrong
a materialistic thing is something that is temporary ... and besides, there are heaps of materialistic things that stand outside of any standardized units of measurement
So what is the purpos of prayer... an give an esample of a prayer that meets that purpos.???
people's thoughts and desires manifest in a very real and observable way. whether you label those thoughts and desires as "prayer" or not seems pretty arbitrary from this standpoint. the label becomes relevant when a person believes in god and has a manifestation of god in their lives. that belief and manifestation changes the person's thoughts and desires. the outcome of which is real, and can be observed.
prayer is something i struggle with everyday..
how does one pray? what does one pray for?
is it a way to circumvent god and ask for something he doesn't want to give us?
IOW god knows what i need, and he knows if he is gonna give it to me..do i really have the right to ask him for something he isn't gonna give me anyway?
if god wants me to die, do i have the right to ask him to save me from death?
the only thing i have come up with as far as prayer,is that it is a form of communication, a form that we would not normally have in everyday conversations, IE 'god help him to learn about such and such'..as opposed to 'you need to learn about such and such' one activates a defensive mechanism the other opens one up to that learning,
how does one pray? what does one pray for?
is it a way to circumvent god and ask for something he doesn't want to give us?
IOW god knows what i need, and he knows if he is gonna give it to me..do i really have the right to ask him for something he isn't gonna give me anyway?
if god wants me to die, do i have the right to ask him to save me from death?
the only thing i have come up with as far as prayer,is that it is a form of communication, a form that we would not normally have in everyday conversations, IE 'god help him to learn about such and such'..as opposed to 'you need to learn about such and such' one activates a defensive mechanism the other opens one up to that learning,