What is the difference between Allopathy, Homeopathy and Ayurvedic medicens?

[Asguard]

that wasnt aimed at you my friend

It was aimed to take a specific example (using your post as a starting ground) and asking Dr. Nancy Malik to prove how her medication (water) would be more effective than using the westen treatment (iron) for treating a known condition rather than pudling around with principles

 

[ElectricFetus]

Recording on water? (go to 4:30 minutes)

 

[kmguru]

The fact that chemicals at microgram level has an effect on human body - i.e. they do interact with the body chemical processes could be the answer to homeopathy. However, "the shaking" business is a puzzle. Does the single active molecule suddenly collects additional electrons or sheds electrons - Billy may answer that. Or, like protein folds, does the active chemical, hypercin or whatever somehow fold with water molecules to do something....???

We need electron microscope to see what happens....

 

[Billy T]

The fact that chemicals at microgram level has an effect on human body - i.e. they do interact with the body chemical processes could be the answer to homeopathy. However, "the shaking" business is a puzzle. Does the single active molecule suddenly collects additional electrons or sheds electrons - Billy may answer that. Or, like protein folds, does the active chemical, hypercin or whatever somehow fold with water molecules to do something....???

We need electron microscope to see what happens....

Unles some Ionizing radiation has just passed thru the water, I think free electrons would be extremely rare < 10/cc.

H2O not only forms short chains of various length but can disassociate into positive protons, +, and hydroxyl radicals, -OH. If I remember correctly the pH of pure water is 7 where pH is the negative log of the hydrogen ion (proton) concentration. I think that 7 means that in pure water the percent that is protons is 10^-7. By logic and assuming that is correctly remembered, then when you add some thing to water that also liberates protons , for example H2SO4, the there will be more free protons. If 100 times more, then the concentration would climb top 10^-5 and the pH would be 5. (I can never remember if less than 7 is an acidic or a base, but working it out from the definition is easy and hopefully correct here.)

I assume that a few of the xH2O chains do tend to have a net positive charge, a proton, weakly bound on the "head of the chain." i.e. the leading O ion has an extra proton bound to it for a total of 3, on rare occasions.

Thanks for question about possible "folding of water." It provoked the following thoughts:

I do not know if it actually happens but if x is great enough, as water is polar (for reasons explained in my prior post) I would also suppose that there could briefly be bent chains that close on themselves to form very small loops or circles. Never have heard / read of this, but it does seem possible. As they would be self-stressed by the curvature there is probably a minimum x for this to be possible and they would break with collisions more easily that the open ended chain of the same x value, I would think.

If I were to search experimentally for evidence of these “tiny water donuts,” it would be in water at about 1 degree C or less. Perhaps a careful study of the scattering or absorption of sound would show a slight inflection in the value (of absorption or scattering coefficients) as a function of sound wave length nears a wavelength that resonates with the smallest possible closed loop? Also interesting to think about is possible enhancement of the “anti-stokes” line in laser scattering from water subject to strong sound waves with wave lengths in this region. Perhaps something resembling NMR (now called MRI, as the word “nuclear” in the original name, scared people) could be used to observe these tiny donuts. Perhaps even just very careful measurement of the AC dielectric constant as a function of frequency would show their effect. The nice thing about all of these attempts is the effect, if any is observed should weaken as the temperature is increased and these tiny donuts are destroyed by collisions.

I never though about these tiny water donuts before. I wonder if anyone has looked for them? Some one good at searching, please try.

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

I take it then even though you did not directly answer my specific questions that without any "shaking" between the two steps of "case B" the "homeopathic power" of both A & B cases' 1% concentrations would be the same. I also take it that "Succussion" = vigorous shaking done after each time the concentration is changed by dilution. Please confirm or correct.
So both alcohol and water can store some information about what the active agent was, but alcohol less well. This is the homeopathic reply to people objecting that with enough dilution there might not even be one molecule of the agent remaining in the sample is it not? I.e. the effective ness of the agent is transfered to the water. Do homeopathic supporter have any model or idea how these two different liquids both store this information? I know a little bit about water that many do not. Namely it is much more complex than just a collection of H2O molecules and can agree that vigorous shaking CAN change the distribution of the molecules forming water, but unless it is "flash frozen" while the shaking is in progress I am nearly certain it will thermally relax back ito the same distribution of polymerized molecules it had before "succussed." I have no idea how it is possible for there to be any stored information remaining more than a second at room temperature. That is why I asked if homeopathic supporter have any mechanism in mind.

Here are a few words to help you (and others) understand water better:

Water is really xH2O where x is a distribution of small integers. This is because both the hydrogens are one the same side (separated by 105 degree) of the oxygen. Their electron spends much more time near the O than near the H, which are basically just positive proton "bumps" electrostatically bound to the now negative O ion.

Two H2O can thus easily join in a chain with the O ion of one "nesseled" between the two proton "bumps" of the other. In this case, x = 2. This x= 2chain can grow and x > 10 occurs until the water is very hot. The average value of x increases with cooling as the thermal collisons with sufficient energy to break the longer chains are less frequent. I.e. at low temperatures the average x of the distribution of x is larger. I am nearly sure "vigorous shaking" of (or passing very high frequency sound waves thur) water would change the distribution of x while this "non-thermal" energy source is available to break the longer (x >10) chains into two shorter ones. I.e. shift the distibution of x to that corresponding to a higher temperature than the true temperature. Once this non-thermal energy source is terminated, then in less than a second, the distribution of x would return to be than corresponding to the true temperature.

Below 4 degrees, the chains are so long that as they are jumbled together significant voids occur. These voids occupy an increasing percent of the volume of the container. So the water stops contracting with temperature and begins to expand as the temperature decreases below 4 C. I forget the correct value for the density of 0 degree water, but it is more than that of ice but less than that 4 degree C water. - Water's densest temperature - That is why the bottom of deep lakes that freeze over in winter have 4degree water on their bottoms all 12 months of the year. Lake Cayuga is such a deep lake and Cornell University now uses this bottom water for airconditioning of its buildings in summer. Nearly a century before that began, a small power company used that 4C water too instead of cooling towers. It was economical to haul the coal from Pennsivania to mid NY state and burn it there on the shore of Lake Cayuga as the efficiency is increase when 4 degree C is available instead of the 30 degree C air to dump the waste heat into even when much of the power generated was returned to PA via transmission lines.

your view of succussion is right.

I don't know of alchol but water has memory and stores the knowledge. How water stores it, you can have it at
http://www.infiniteconferencing.com/Events/nch/051607nch/051607nch.html.

I admire that you consider water as much more than collection of water moloecules because most skeptics don't understand that water is a very complex in its structure.

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

that wasnt aimed at you my friend

It was aimed to take a specific example (using your post as a starting ground) and asking Dr. Nancy Malik to prove how her medication (water) would be more effective than using the westen treatment (iron) for treating a known condition rather than pudling around with principles

Homeopathy is equally effective, if not better, in anemia as allopathy. We have medicines like Ferrum phos, Ferrum mettalica, Silicea, apart from many others, to treat the condition

 

[Asguard]

really point out a cohrain paper that says that and i will apologise

Until that point homopathics should be in psudoscience or parapsycology because it has NO scientific merit.

Water has NO effect in replacing lost iron or heamoglobin. The ONLY thing homopathics can treat is dehydration and even THAT doesnt work if it severe dehydration requires salts and glucose to be readjusted as well.

 

[Billy T]

...How water stores it, you can have it at
http://www.infiniteconferencing.com/Events/nch/051607nch/051607nch.html....

I am currently at a Delaware beach resort and internet connection is poor. This link seem always to stop on chart 11, To that point he states nothing false and has made me realize that there can be much more complex sturctures to water than the simple polymer chains of various length I already knew must exist (because of the polar nature of the H2O molecule - both hydrogens on one side with 105 degree angule between them.)

Namely all sorts of loops with no "loose ends" and many other stuctures with an O nestled in between the two hydrogens of two different H2Os units that are part of the main larger structure. (The other hydrogens of these two H2O units keep them part of the main sturcture.) Some of these structures are no doubt quite stable at modest temperatures and consist of "super molecules" of well defined masses and shapes. Possibly with 20 or more times the weight of H2O.

As some biological effects are more shape than composition dependent It does seem possible to me that some agent added to water and then vigorously shaken (or heated* or exposed to strong sound waves) may be able to change the population distribution of various stable "super molecules" Examples of shape (inspite of very different chemisty) roles are artificial sweeteners, varoius psychological drugs that have the shape of natural neurotransmitters and thus occupy the shape specific sites on the cell wall of nerves etc.

Thus my view of homepathic medicine is shifting - I.e. it may not be entirely the nonsense I HAVE LONG BELIEVED IT TO BE. Certainly some aspects may be as Asguard is pointing out with his lack of IRON example. Iron is a single atom essential to the structure of hemeglobin (I think) and not a shape that can be constructed from some other complex of water molecules.

I did a search on "Chaplin Water Structure" and found several references one of which seemed to be telling that Chaplin was a silly old fool who did not understand things. Unfortunately I could not down load it or most of the others, but will later.
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*Also it is true that the formation rate of various super molecules of H2O can be dramatically changed selectively by the presence of other molecules - this is how catalist work, why the orientation of a crystal surface serving as a substrated for vapor deposited film can control the sturcture of the film that grows on it etc.

If one want to take the "Homepathic POV", one could argue that many threputic teas are effective not because of the tea's chemical effects but because the tea molecules have greatly changed the distirbution of stable shapes of supper water molecules present in the liquid called water.

I think It highly probably that the "succussion" or shaking approach to modification of the distribution of "super molecules" is extremely crude compared to what could be achieved with very high frequency sound. For example, the sound wave lenghts that resonate with some super molecule structures will destroy them and yet not be damaging to others that are stable. Thus, one could think of "scientific homoepathy" where warm water is cooled down while in a carefully chosen spectrum of ultra sound (notches in the sound spectrum where the "desirable" sturcture of super molecules resonate.)

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

really point out a cohrain paper that says that and i will apologise

Until that point homopathics should be in psudoscience or parapsycology because it has NO scientific merit.

Water has NO effect in replacing lost iron or heamoglobin. The ONLY thing homopathics can treat is dehydration and even THAT doesnt work if it severe dehydration requires salts and glucose to be readjusted as well.

It's not just water now. It's carrying the imprints of medicine.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

It's not just water now. It's carrying the imprints of medicine.

Note from a moderator (but not the moderator of this board):

This is a place of science. The Rule of Laplace is decisive: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence, in order to be treated with respect.

Please provide same. Claims are not enough, nor is the dismissal of the entire body of modern scientific medicine by the clever term "allopathy."

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't think Malik is trying to be clever, its standard to define medicine systems as allopathy, unani, homeopathy and ayurveda in India, its not meant to be offensive.

 

[Asguard]

It's not just water now. It's carrying the imprints of medicine.

so that would be a no then?

 

[Dr. Nancy Malik]

Note from a moderator (but not the moderator of this board):

This is a place of science. The Rule of Laplace is decisive: Extraordinary assertions must be accompanied by extraordinary evidence, in order to be treated with respect.

Please provide same. Claims are not enough, nor is the dismissal of the entire body of modern scientific medicine by the clever term "allopathy."

Dear Moderator

In India the popular term is allopathy. everyone uses this term including physicians of conventional system themselves. No one says here that he is going to see a modern doctor or a conventional doctor. They say they have resorted to allopathy.

And it's true even. Allo means opposite. The effect/nature of allopathic medicine is opposite i.e to supress the symptoms in most of the cases where as homeo means same, and the medicine nature is similar to nature of disease.

 

[Reiku]

This is an interesting thread.

 

[kmguru]

Wiki defines Allopathy as:

Allopathic medicine and allopathy (from Greek ἄλλος, állos, other, different + πάϑος, páthos, suffering) are terms coined by Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy. Originally intended as a characterization of standard medicine in the early 19th century, these terms were rejected by mainstream physicians and quickly acquired negative overtones. In the United States the term "allopathic" has been used in contexts not related to homeopathy,[1] but it has never been accepted by the medical establishment, and is not a label that such individuals apply to themselves.[2][3]

Even Ayurveda would be considered Allopathy because it is not Homeopathy.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

This is not India. Homeopathic "medicine" is considered crackpottery in the West and the only reason its "remedies" are allowed to be sold is that they cause no direct harm. As a person with a better than average education in science, I have yet to see a scientific description of homeopathy that even makes sense, much less is persuasive.

This is not to say that homeopathy categorically does not work. Rather it is to say that if it does work we have no clear understanding of why, like chiropractic and acupuncture.

On the other hand we are very familiar with the power of the placebo effect.

 

[Asguard]

FR im sorry but to put acupuncture in the same catigory as homopathics is insulting and wrong

Acupuncture has serious peer reviewed studies backing up its efficasy even if the actual understanding may not be there. Hell even CPR is the same, there is a HUGE amount of debate as to HOW it works, is it interthorasic pressure or is it direct pumping of the heart? but the fact that it DOES help is well documented.

Chiropractics on the other hand im not so sure about, it does cause some imidiate relife but i have never herd of anyone being CURED by it. That being said i do have some bias from my sister on that score, she is a physio and all physio's HATE chiropracters

 

[S.A.M.]

In the United States the term "allopathic" has been used in contexts not related to homeopathy,[1] but it has never been accepted by the medical establishment, and is not a label that such individuals apply to themselves.[2][3]

Even Ayurveda would be considered Allopathy because it is not Homeopathy.

Maybe that is true in the United States, but doctors define themselves as homeopaths or allopaths or ayurvedas where these systems all exist together.

 

[John99]

or wichdoctors or full of shit.

 

[Simon Anders]

FR im sorry but to put acupuncture in the same catigory as homopathics is insulting and wrong

Acupuncture has serious peer reviewed studies backing up its efficasy even if the actual understanding may not be there. Hell even CPR is the same, there is a HUGE amount of debate as to HOW it works, is it interthorasic pressure or is it direct pumping of the heart? but the fact that it DOES help is well documented.

Chiropractics on the other hand im not so sure about, it does cause some imidiate relife but i have never herd of anyone being CURED by it. That being said i do have some bias from my sister on that score, she is a physio and all physio's HATE chiropracters

I don't know about chiropracters curing diseases, but I have certainly walked into chiropracters offices with intense pain and left in vastly less pain. I have walked with limited range of motion in this or that portion of my body and left with greater range of motion. I think these are the reasons most people go to chiropracters and many of the ones I speak to have these same experiences. A regular doctor, unless there is some underlying disease, really has two options - pain killers/anti-imflammatories and surgery. The former attack the symptoms and the latter is expensive and invasive. So for me the chiropracter offers a very cheap alternative - one that includes, often much more responsibility on my part to do stretches or other 'homework' and to notice the ways stress, for example, or bad habits in sports or motion in general, other examples, are tending me back toward the problem and to nip it in the bud.