what if God could be proven?
- Thread starter NMSquirrel
- Start date
I assume we WOULD still have free will, Squirrel, thats the point. I am saying he MADE me to NOT believe in him prior to his unquestionable appearance, because he made me with an inquistive mind, one that wouldn't allow such fallacies as are presented in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths to become a conductor in otherwise logical thought processes...
Okay, so you are as unscientific as anything.... you must not exist. Or at least there is no scientific reason to belief you exist so I refuse to believe you exist ? I follow your logic 100%.
Peace be unto you
me! me! me!:bagpuss:
if it is supported by an even more supernatural phenomenon y and z?
or as you stated brilliantly once, when the world explained without X is more bizzare than when explained with X included...or something like that..:scratchin:
Depends on which one you mean.
god can't be fully captured by our imagination?:shrug:
gee man, if you need money and you have all the money in the world, do you still say that you need money?
if so,
is the need of money an imperfection in you?
isn't perfection = all imperfections fulfilled?
in order to have a perfection, doesn't it have to be a fulfilled imperfection?
perfect sight is the opposite of the imperfectness of blindness..and so on.
i ask you to give me one way to be perfect without imperfections.
one way one can perfect without actually having all imperfections in him, then fulfilling them all..
so if the need for company (along other things) are imperfections in god, yet he fulfilled them all, can you say he's not perfect?
and mind you, this is under the restriction of our world's logic;
-unfortunately sarkus...knowing the limits of your brain makes your brain limitless..-
in our human world, every word, in order to have a meaning, has to be the opposite of another word or somewhere in between.
good can't be defined without bad..
if in a world everybody was good, would the word good even have a meaning?
would the word comfort have any meaning in a world without pain?
and so, how can i explain the existence of the meaning of the word perfect to you, in a world (dimension) without imperfections?using our logic?
according to your logic, a perfect being has to be null
.does he have a body? yes? why? what does he need it for? doesn't he need nothing?
does he have eyes?
does he have intelligence? why? to solve problems?that means he's prone to problems and so needs intelligence to solve them? and so a perfect being shouldn't have intelligence?
so......?
what do you propose your perfect being do sarkus? have only a name? lol but doesn't also that reflect the imperfection of needing one?
at today's lecture, i put the facts forward, this is what they seemed like:
A:us
actions ---towards---> perfection
{{{{{{{ as opposed to }}}}}}}
imperfection upon no action(we're naturally created flawed)
or
no action ---keeps---> imperfection
B:god
no action ---keeps---> perfection
{{{{{{{ as opposed to }}}}}}}?
action ---towards---> ?????????
source: P
anything clearer??
i don't revert to it, that is my definition of god; complete, missing nothing, including the ability of doing what he wants, i don't see the need for nothing contradicting the doing of something, i can see many ways it could happen, i can't give an example, because what we're discussing it in gods, and not humans, so what kind of example did you expect me to provide? huh?
so just because i can't give an example then i can't imagine it?
no, we're arguing your understanding of the implications, which i see are in total sync with the "one thing", but you can't see how the implications fit, and are using that to deny the "one thing"..
a shame really.
PS, this post of mine might be really messed up, but not only am i lazy to tidy it up, i kinda like the confusion within it: D
Given that you have defined him as "perfect" or "complete" but are patently unable to comprehend the implications of this, I can fully accept that you can not fully capture him in your imagination.
You unfortunately began your sentence "If god needs company.... and then concluded the sentence by asking "does this mean god needs company?" Well, in English: if X then X is a truth. E.g. If I am thirsty, am I thirsty?
As I previously said, you seem to be oblivious to the conclusions of your own statements and arguments.
And the opposite of "table" is...?
I'm not the one claiming a perfect being exists - I'm just showing you how merely describing something as a "perfect being" is meaningless and pointless.according to your logic, a perfect being has to be null
You finally seem to be getting the point. You seem to want your god to be a "perfect being" without addressing the issues that it raises.
Instead you go "well, he's perfect - so the issues you raise are irrelevant".
Hey ho.
You have certainly cleared up your inability to follow your own arguments.
Even above you say that a perfect god that doesn't act retains perfection... yet you then wonder about a god that does act... yet not accepting that action implies fulfilling a need/want... which implies imperfection.
You have yet to offer an example of an act that fulfils no want - but instead revert to "god can do what he wants" - without understanding that this implies that he wants which implies imperfection etc.
The logical conclusion is that a perfect being does not act.
Any clearer to you??
Sheesh - this one paragraph is rife with examples of you clearly unable to follow your own reasoning.
1. "the ability of doing what he wants"... which implies he has a want, which implies an imperfection and thus NOT PERFECT.
2. "i can see many ways it could happen" - but then you claim you can't see any examples - which indicates that you can NOT see many ways it could happen. If you can see ways then you have your examples. So what are they??
3. And again you define god as "complete". So what does something that is "complete" need to do? If it needs or wants then it is NOT complete - by definition of "want" or "need".
How can you possibly imagine something that you can't comprehend enough to be able to think of an example of it?
At best you can imagine a "placeholder" for whatever it is, but you can't imagine the actual thing if you can't provide an example.
They don't fit. Your understanding is flawed - and I have tried to show why - but all you do is revert to "God is perfect - he can do what he wants" - and all the while you ignore the implications - or just choose not to understand.
Because that is the way it is? How does a RNA know that these 3 codons of RNA will translate into this particular amino acid? (why not some other arrangement) For some reason it just knows.
How does a quark know to interact with another? Just because they're written in the same 'mathematical language'- how do you know such a language exists?
Peace be unto you
to answer your question
If God shows himself in front of me, I will drop myself to the floor like many on the bible and I won't look at HIM, because if you see the Lord's face you are dead.
Secondly my answer chiseled in stone, is yes if he ask me to do something irrational i will do it.
Oh wow like Moses, in the time of Moses, they never had rain yet like we know it today, they have a thick fog, and this fog was enough to bring water to the world. And the Lord asked him to make an ark because He was going to destroy the world by water and rain and he obeyed. How wonderful... Yes if the Lord commands me to do something no doubt about it..
If God shows himself in front of me, I will drop myself to the floor like many on the bible and I won't look at HIM, because if you see the Lord's face you are dead.
Secondly my answer chiseled in stone, is yes if he ask me to do something irrational i will do it.
Oh wow like Moses, in the time of Moses, they never had rain yet like we know it today, they have a thick fog, and this fog was enough to bring water to the world. And the Lord asked him to make an ark because He was going to destroy the world by water and rain and he obeyed. How wonderful... Yes if the Lord commands me to do something no doubt about it..
My guess is you wouldn't know God if he was walking down the street and you were looking right at him.
If God asked you to do something irrational then it wouldn't be God asking in the first place. God couldn't be perfect having irrational outcomes.
so then you believe satan is his own entity and god has no control over satan?
sarkus:
not all wants reflect needs, or to be more exact, not all needs result in the same wants. many wants simply reflect who we are.
hunger is an imperfection requiring the need food.
so when people need food, do they want the same food?
you may say the differrence in what one wants to eat is actually fulfilling the other need of tasting something delicious, and delicious changes from one to the other.
what makes it so?
why do people fulfill their needs in different ways? why do they want different things yet the imperfection is the same?
aren't they expressing their individuality? their personality? their selves? their existence? who they are?
can't one express who is without having a need? show how he is different without answering for an imperfection? making a choice because he explicitly wants to, with 0% needing to?
can't a perfect being EXIST?
why? is it because we haven't seen one?
is it because we haven't BECOME one?
if your brain fails to make one up, does that mean it doesn't exist?
know your limitations, and progress keeping them in mind.
not all wants reflect needs, or to be more exact, not all needs result in the same wants. many wants simply reflect who we are.
hunger is an imperfection requiring the need food.
so when people need food, do they want the same food?
you may say the differrence in what one wants to eat is actually fulfilling the other need of tasting something delicious, and delicious changes from one to the other.
what makes it so?
why do people fulfill their needs in different ways? why do they want different things yet the imperfection is the same?
aren't they expressing their individuality? their personality? their selves? their existence? who they are?
can't one express who is without having a need? show how he is different without answering for an imperfection? making a choice because he explicitly wants to, with 0% needing to?
can't a perfect being EXIST?
why? is it because we haven't seen one?
is it because we haven't BECOME one?
if your brain fails to make one up, does that mean it doesn't exist?
know your limitations, and progress keeping them in mind.
Last edited:
Really?
Any evidence for that?
Wow!!!
Moses built an ark too?
Did he borrow the the plans from Noah?
The comments about doing something irrational, thinking the instructions came from God, implies in the premise that God could think irrationally and still maintain his perfection, this in itself irrational. Irrational thinking is not perfection in action. How you want to identify the "irrational thinking" is your choice.
et tu brute..
How you want to identify the "irrational thinking" is your choice.
just cause you think it is irrational...
irrationality and perfection are relative..
what you think of as perfection and irrationality does not mean the next person thinks of them the same way.
i personally do not think it is rational to think of our existence as a computer program..this is not the matrix..you are not the one...
GOd is GOD
Wanted you or not, God is only one, when he showed Himself you are going to know it. Believe me, wanted or not, He is the only one with power in the Universe, and you are going to know Him sooner or later. We all work for HIM even when you states you don't believe in HIM you are his creature and He love you the same, He produce everything you need to stay alive and He loves you. Sooner or later you are going to find out about HIM. Believe me.
Wanted you or not, God is only one, when he showed Himself you are going to know it. Believe me, wanted or not, He is the only one with power in the Universe, and you are going to know Him sooner or later. We all work for HIM even when you states you don't believe in HIM you are his creature and He love you the same, He produce everything you need to stay alive and He loves you. Sooner or later you are going to find out about HIM. Believe me.