What if Eve had not eaten the apple?

Quote Marlin:
"It's true that there is hidden truth, though. God, for His own purposes, does keep certain doctrines sacred so that they will not get trampled like the fabled "pearls before swine." But the faithful and righteous are allowed to know many hidden truths through personal revelation."

*How does one find faith and rightousness if this god hides truth and revelation? For what "purpose" does this god hide truth? What is this god afraid of?
 
Cris said:
Nice post.
Thanks.

I’m not sure that I would, but if I was just limited to the garden only for eternity then there is only so many times I could do something an infinite number of times in one place before it became really repetitive, right?
Well, you're "just limited" to the earth as it is. And if you have a job, it's likely that 80% of it is routine. Excitement is exciting because it's rare and different; you don't enjoy life simply because it's in short supply. If you're exactly where you want to be, doing exactly what your purpose is, none of those things are an issue. Face it, the root of your worries is not what you might have been doing for eternity, but that there might be something better or more worthwhile while you're doing it - that if you don't want to die, you would want to be somewhere else. But with that, you're bound to argue in circles. For eternity ;)

Our nagging discontentment with this world is a symptom of not being where and who we should be. Do you think you would you have that feeling if you were where and who you should be? Not unless there is the temptation of something "better", and that might be an illusion. That's what Adam was tempted with. Away from God, we're bound to try filling the gap with something else - but nothing can replace God, so nothing will satisfy. Not even all the knowledge of good and evil, of what is better or worse for us, will make us feel whole.

Possibly because the bible gives no indication of anything else other than a garden paradise. Even descriptions of heaven, presumably our goal and greatest prize, is not clearly defined anywhere – it is left to our imagination. But why would there be any progression? If everything is provided, presumably God would discreetly clear away any excess excrement, all food would be provided in abundance, life would be eternal, and there would be no disease and no fear of death, and no struggle for survival – what then would be the purpose of doing anything?
The Bible merely describes the stage and the promise, and how we are saved from the alternative. Where our goal would have been to be with God, it is now to be reconciled with Him. But creation itself was at its best just a limited expression of what God had in mind. In other words, we can't know more than Adam did about his future, and what we read about and experience is only half of the equation. At the end of time, all creation will be renewed and merged with heaven, where it will find full expression. What isn't compatible will be burned up.

And to what I said earlier I would add that to be completely content we shouldn't just be where and who we were intended to be, but also with whom we were intended to be. Or in a word: Loved. God saw that it was "not good" for Adam to be alone, so He made Eve, not just as a wife, but also as an equal. The reason for this, I think, is that an equal can give as just much as we can take from them, which means there's an equilibrium. Neither can become exhausted. God keeps the relationship from becoming static by providing for it.

So to your last question: the purpose of everything won't be obscured by those things you mention - neither in appearance or reality. We would simply be free to apply ourselves to other things and other people, not just to ourselves and our own preservation (which is incidentally what Christians have been asked to do in the light of God's providence).

What was man created to do?
Our purpose has everything to do with our relationship with God, and can't be found outside Him. The creation can't know its purpose without knowing its creator, and He created us to BE, not necessarily to DO. The shift to "doing", working for a life, only happened after the fall.

But there would be no death and if we were to do as God commands and continue to multiply then the Earth would become wall-to-wall people in about 38 generations, or about 1 trillion people, and continuing to grow at an exponential rate.

In real practical terms most would need to leave the planet and expand into the rest of the galaxy and beyond which would become full eventually given eternal lifetimes. The bible doesn’t appear to mention space travel.
We're not limited to what the Bible mentions, are we? And God certainly is not limited to what He has decided to reveal to us. We don't know what God would have said and revealed if there was no fall. The Bible we have was a contingency of the fall. But if we assume Adam had carried out his mandate, our mastery over nature would have been complete, and the universe would be our playground.

That raises another question – if we cannot die then would we need to breathe? Presumably God would provide adequate spacecraft which would never fail and he would provide suitable new Earthlike worlds for us to fill.
Being alive is more than breathing, and I'm inclined to think (based on what happened after the fall) that by "death" God meant more than physical death, while Satan meant nothing but physical death. According to Genesis itself, they had not yet eaten from the tree of life when they lost access to it in Gen 3:22, or they had been sustained by it until then (cf. Rev. 22:2). Either way, Adam had lost the spiritual sustenance God provided for him in the garden, and death now presented a crisis it hadn't before. It had become an obstacle, like nature itself became an obstacle to survival, with suffering and hard work - all separating them from life in paradise and subsequent eternal life with God. You are assuming a life that is intrinsically separate from God - the way it is now - not one where death and overpopulation, whether they can occur or not, are no threat.

And that is good because? And, doing what?
Because we won't run out of options, like you seem to suggest. Doing whatever we would be doing.

Unlike the command to multiply in Eden it is not clear if people in heaven are meant to have sex.
I think it's safe to say that heaven is populated by God, while earth is populated by man. God's children are those who bear his image (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:18), while our children bear our own image (Gen. 5:3).

Sex is presented as the consummation of the relationship between two people ("the two will become one"), and that this is seen in the context of a whole unit (body, mind and soul) - so that according to Jesus people in heaven will "neither marry nor be given in marriage", and be "like the angels", lacking nothing. In our consummated bodies we would retain our identities, possibly even our genders, but since we would not be physically or spiritually alone anymore, the "season" (if I may call it that) for marriage and copulation would be over. Since our lives will not revolve around reproduction and survival as it does now, I think Adam's earthly mandate would also have been fulfilled.
 
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one_raven said:
What are you talking about?
Amen is not a "who".
Amen is a Hebrew word meaning, essentially, "You are speaking the truth".
When you shout "Amen!", in a Christian church for example, you are shouting to the preacher for speaking the truth of the word of God.
Here's one of many refernces to give a hint to its roots. If you care to look, there are many more detailed explanations readily available.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
No that is what someone guessed that it meant. Prior to loosing its meaning it was a name. I'm surprised no one has yet asked who it was a name for.
 
Cris,

So they were setup for the fall. In effect they had no choice. So much for the Christian concept of freewill - clearly it does not exist.

Maybe they had a choice, but decided to go with their desirous nature, so God being the loving father allowed them to indulge in their passion of God-envy.
Have you ever allowed your children to do something which you may not approve of, in the hope that they will eventually lose interest?

Jan Ardena.
 
its actually quite simple. the way the myans and many other cultures still living off of the earth is a good example. if something is not presented to you, how could it be desirable. there were no tv's or phones, but there was also no need for them becuase adam and eve never knew what they were. how can you want somehting you dont know about. adam and eve set the evil and good ways though, but just like us humans today, we want what we cant have. and like the apple that God EMPHISIZED about not eating because it would defy him and create evil, they wanted it, just becuase it was offered to them, they did have knowledge about it, so who can blame them for tasting it. its like if you knew what chocolate was and was forbidden to eat it. woudnt you just want one little bite.
 
I think the Eden myth represents mankind creating language, inventing weapons, and leaving the jungles. It's a reflection of our recent and rapid evolution in brain size, which I think most people would admit, was a mixed blessing. There are some compelling arguments that females (eve) created language, since they were the gatherers, and men (adam) were the hunters. Hunting usually requires silence. Gathering requires a vast knowledge about plants, where to find them, and what to do with them, so language would be very helpful there. Language helped culture to thrive, since stories can be passed down the generations.

If this fall into culture and language didn't happen, we would be happy, perhaps a little hungry sometimes, but there would be no civilizations, no war, no overpopulation.
 
Cris said:
Yup that’s why I can’t see any progress being made in an environment where everything is provided and already perfect. Any challenges that might be presented would be known to be unreal since one would always be aware of the ultimate benefactor making sure nothing could fail. Without real challenges, e.g. the struggle to survive, I doubt we’d be motivated to do much.
Thanks for your welcome, Cris, though premature it may be, considering I've been eyeing this forum for quite a while.

Nevertheless, I fully agree with the conditions you present above, however, I don't recall Genesis stating that the creation was perfect. I think God said it "is good".

Somehow people always ascribe perfection to goodness, but I don't see why it should be so. In Christendom perfection can only be referenced to God. God must be the "perfect" being... maybe not? God just needs to be "good". Goodness is above perfection. Perfection need not exist.
 
This only applies to you if you feel it does.

Calling the creation and the fall a "myth" is a feeble, uneducated and ignorant cop-out. As if science had a better or more sound explanation to the origins of the human race and all of creation. And a pity it is, that some drive their minds to confines and conclusions in a literary battle between science and the words of God.

Using the whole "where do fossils and dinosaurs come from" as a wild card that you throw in at the last moment--hoping it will justify you and derail everyone elses comments--is also a cop-out.

If your mind cannot provide hope and faith, where it lacks understanding, then truly your state of being is not to be envied. What you cling to through sciense as "evidence" and "truth" is just elaborate hypothosis fabricated by the human imagination to explain, what cannot be proven, and seen, or accepted as obvious. To sum up myriads of eons, of creations, into small unworthy paragraphs and essays and nobel prizes and educated guesses.

Since your mind doesn't look for the possible--- and it only is geared toward stating and concluding why the Creation is IMPOSSIBLE---enjoy your fossils, and dinosaur bones because I wont attempt to fancy your imagination with how they could have existed along with everything else God created, and still be in PERFECT harmony with what is written in the Bible. This because of your unbelief.

And since all you want is the obvious, and you hope not for anything else, you are obviously going to die. And as also your hopeless and miserable scientific dogmas that you revere as sacred, will die along with you.
And "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from" the word of God, till it all be fulfilled. Regardless of wether your energies are geared towards defamation, or affirmation of what it is written by the prophets. It will all be fulfilled.

Wonderful will be the day, when you see as you are seen, and this Truth that you debunk as "myth" is restored to your soul, and you understand and appreciate your true heritage. Until then, wallow, as I said earlier like the swine in the mire. Since you trade in all your potential faith for temporary explanations that please your carnal mind. Your soul will starve to death without God's word. And you will feel the effects of the fall both physically and spiritually in your soul.

Ok, i think that's it ;)
 
Nisus: This only applies to you if you feel it does.
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M*W: No, you're wrong. This applies because it is not original. It's a myth based upon many earlier myths! They all can't be right, but they all have similarities. The myth of the Garden of Eden was definitely not the first version of the myth. The oldest myth takes place in Eridu in Sumeria long before A&E appeared in the GoE.
*************
Nisus: Calling the creation and the fall a "myth" is a feeble, uneducated and ignorant cop-out. As if science had a better or more sound explanation to the origins of the human race and all of creation. And a pity it is, that some drive their minds to confines and conclusions in a literary battle between science and the words of God.
*************
M*W: Calling the creation "factual" is a feeble, uneducated and ignorant cop-out.
*************
Nisus: Using the whole "where do fossils and dinosaurs come from" as a wild card that you throw in at the last moment--hoping it will justify you and derail everyone elses comments--is also a cop-out.
*************
M*W: Well, there have been no fossils traced back to the location of Eden that can conclusively be dated to A&E. Therefore, there is no proof of their existence. The myth as told in the Bible is incomplete and insubstantial.
*************
Nisus: If your mind cannot provide hope and faith, where it lacks understanding, then truly your state of being is not to be envied. What you cling to through sciense as "evidence" and "truth" is just elaborate hypothosis fabricated by the human imagination to explain, what cannot be proven, and seen, or accepted as obvious. To sum up myriads of eons, of creations, into small unworthy paragraphs and essays and nobel prizes and educated guesses.
*************
M*W: It is your mind that cannot provide hope and faith. It is your mind that lacks understanding. It is you who are not envied, because you cling to myths as truths.
*************
Nisus: Since your mind doesn't look for the possible---and it only is geared toward stating and concluding why the Creation is IMPOSSIBLE---enjoy your fossils, and dinosaur bones because I wont attempt to fancy your imagination with how they could have existed along with everything else God created, and still be in PERFECT harmony with what is written in the Bible. This because of your unbelief.
*************
M*W: The myth of creation as told in Genesis is not a literal story. It's an allegory. Even I learned that in a Baptist college. If, however, Moses wrote the Torah (and Moses's existence is questionable), much was lost in translation. Again, the creation myths are hand-me-down myths from earlier cultures. How ignorant it is of you to believe that the Genesis myth is the only true one!
*************
Nisus: And since all you want is the obvious, and you hope not for anything else, you are obviously going to die. And as also your hopeless and miserable scientific dogmas that you revere as sacred, will die along with you. And "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from" the word of God, till it all be fulfilled. Regardless of wether your energies are geared towards defamation, or affirmation of what it is written by the prophets. It will all be fulfilled.
*************
M*W: You're going to die, too, my friend. It's your hopeless and miserable wait for the impossible state of heaven that will die along with you! Prophets, schmrophets! You believe in fortune tellers! How lame can you be?
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Nisus: Wonderful will be the day, when you see as you are seen, and this Truth that you debunk as "myth" is restored to your soul, and you understand and appreciate your true heritage. Until then, wallow, as I said earlier like the swine in the mire. Since you trade in all your potential faith for temporary explanations that please your carnal mind. Your soul will starve to death without God's word. And you will feel the effects of the fall both physically and spiritually in your soul.

Ok, i think that's it ;)
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M*W: Now you're preaching, mother fucker! Read the forum rules! My soul, should I have one, will never starve, because I eat swine (the other white meat)! You're just another run-of-the-mill Christians who doesn't know Jack Shit about anything.

BTW, welcome to sciforums, asshole, where atheists will thrive and devour your soul. Not even your bones will be found as fossils! Do you dare to test us?
 
Disclaimer:
The views of M.W. don't necessarily represent the views of spidergoat, or the other participants, atheists, agnostics, and religious people of this forum.




I called the Adam and Eve story a myth, but that doesn't mean I think it's totally false. There are lots of similar myths in human history, and if they all have things in common, there might indeed be some truth to it. Just like the great flood of Noah might have been a major tsunami. The theory of evolution even supports it:
[Richard] Dawkins cautiously endorses the controversial "African Eve" theory, according to which the most recent common ancestor of all modern humans probably lived in Africa fewer than 250,000 years ago.
--------------------------------
And a pity it is, that some drive their minds to confines and conclusions in a literary battle between science and the words of God.
I'm not sure if your statement was even directed to me, but I'm trying to reconcile science and religion. I don't think there has to be a battle, but it seems obvious you do.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 
Medicine Woman said:
BTW, welcome to sciforums, asshole, where atheists will thrive and devour your soul. Not even your bones will be found as fossils! Do you dare to test us?

I would offer you my right cheek, but you cannot even touch the left...how are you then to devour my soul? When you can't even draw close enough to touch me?

So you guys can bash the word of God but when a believer comes to hold it up...you say they can't talk because it's considered "Preaching"? So otherwise we can speak, but we can't be heard, because you'll just file it under "Preaching"? I've not read it but I'm sure that in your law, Pharisee, you shouldn't slander. So I will expect you to uphold your own law, before you again preach it to me...

Good day to you...
 
Nisus said:
I would offer you my right cheek, but you cannot even touch the left...how are you then to devour my soul? When you can't even draw close enough to touch me?

So you guys can bash the word of God but when a believer comes to hold it up...you say they can't talk because it's considered "Preaching"? So otherwise we can speak, but we can't be heard, because you'll just file it under "Preaching"? I've not read it but I'm sure that in your law, Pharisee, you shouldn't slander. So I will expect you to uphold your own law, before you again preach it to me...

Good day to you...
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M*W: I don't want your cheek -- neither one of them! You have made your soul available to anyone who wants it. I don't even like the taste of your soul. Yet, you preach. We are not Pharisees. We are realists. Your soul is ours for the taking. Call it whatever you want.

You will never be able to contradict the truth. You are nothing but liars.
 
If Eve had never eaten the apple then I suspect she would have opted for the banana…..making things far more complicated than they already are.

Last I heard, after that unfortunate incident with the apple, Eve has been on a steady diet of bananas….and so have some of Adam’s sons…. :eek:
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: I don't want your cheek -- neither one of them! You have made your soul available to anyone who wants it. I don't even like the taste of your soul. Yet, you preach. We are not Pharisees. We are realists. Your soul is ours for the taking. Call it whatever you want.

You will never be able to contradict the truth. You are nothing but liars.

What are you talking about? ... Since when do Athiests believe in souls anyway.
 
And since when does an athiest Judge a liar...according to your concepts of right or wrong? Truth and Fiction??? Or you just assume everything you say is gospel since there is no God to tell you it's wrong?

Athiesm is the sorriest, most pitiful, tasteless, saltless belief system ever invented by man. You don't believe in anything at all except what you purpose as it comes out of your mouth.

And you fight for your cause as if there were some reward... what? Why so zealous to be an athiest when all you are is dust in the wind? You mock me for believing in heaven... what do you believe in?

Eating my soul?
 
Adam and eve would have been very hairy, EVE would have had hair coming out of her tits and face, and their language consisted of words such as "ooh oh og oh ohh og"
and "uragh, uragh oh ooh og"

Eve would have picked up the apple and probably just throw it at adam's face and pounded her chest and did a dance.

URAHG OG! oh oh
 
Nisus,

Calling the creation and the fall a "myth" is a feeble, uneducated and ignorant cop-out.
Myth, fantasy, fairy story, whatever you like, but such stories possess two major properties that make them unbelievable – no evidence, no credibility.

As if science had a better or more sound explanation to the origins of the human race and all of creation.
Although I would dispute that, it is sufficient to say that simply because there might be an absence of an explanation that doesn’t automatically give credence to any fantasy you care to invent.

And a pity it is, that some drive their minds to confines and conclusions in a literary battle between science and the words of God.
Literary? Usually the argument revolves around logic.

If your mind cannot provide hope and faith, where it lacks understanding, then truly your state of being is not to be envied.
But then those who foster false religious hopes and promises and commit to the irrationality of religious faith cannot be envied either.

What you cling to through sciense as "evidence" and "truth" is just elaborate hypothosis fabricated by the human imagination to explain, what cannot be proven, and seen, or accepted as obvious.
Well no, that sounds more like a description of religion. Science begins and ends with evidence, whereas religion has none.

To sum up myriads of eons, of creations, into small unworthy paragraphs and essays and nobel prizes and educated guesses.
Which if did not exist you would likely never have existed, or have such a poor quality of life that you’d die in your twenties of a simple bacterial infection, and certainly you would not be able to debate across an internet. Science is knowledge, without it we would still likely be living in caves.

Since your mind doesn't look for the possible--- and it only is geared toward stating and concluding why the Creation is IMPOSSIBLE
As opposed to the religionist who asserts that fantasies are true but does not demonstrate how.

And since all you want is the obvious, and you hope not for anything else, you are obviously going to die.
Well no, what we are looking for is some factual basis for religionist ideas. Can you present any as opposed to unsupported assertions?

And as also your hopeless and miserable scientific dogmas that you revere as sacred, will die along with you.
You have that backwards. It is religions that have dogmas and hold things sacred. Within science if someone shows an idea is false then it is discarded very rapidly.

And "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from" the word of God, till it all be fulfilled. Regardless of wether your energies are geared towards defamation, or affirmation of what it is written by the prophets. It will all be fulfilled.
A very good example of baseless religious assertions.

Wonderful will be the day, when you see as you are seen, and this Truth that you debunk as "myth" is restored to your soul, and you understand and appreciate your true heritage.
If it is truth then demonstrate it, otherwise it remains on the fantasy list.

Until then, wallow, as I said earlier like the swine in the mire.
Well I wish you better, but you should try to think more rationally before you can appreciate the absurdity of your position.

Since you trade in all your potential faith for temporary explanations that please your carnal mind.
Science doesn’t use faith, that’s the realm of religion. What has carnality to do with this?

Your soul will starve to death without God's word.
No one has yet shown that souls do, can or could exist, and the same goes for gods. Can you demonstrate otherwise? Otherwise you are just quoting fantasy again.

And you will feel the effects of the fall both physically and spiritually in your soul.
More baseless assertions and preaching.
 
Nisus,

Or you just assume everything you say is gospel since there is no God to tell you it's wrong?
That’s a confused statement. The gospels are pure myth, so to say something is gospel is to indicate the claims are false.

But there is no need for gods to determine what is right and wrong. Fair morality must and can be determined rationally and not by some ancient religious mythology.

Athiesm is the sorriest, most pitiful, tasteless, saltless belief system ever invented by man. You don't believe in anything at all..... .
So which is it? A belief system (first clause), or doesn’t believe anything (second clause)?

except what you purpose as it comes out of your mouth
What the heck does that mean?

And you fight for your cause as if there were some reward... what?
Truth.

Why so zealous to be an athiest when all you are is dust in the wind?
Because to be otherwise is to be gullible and irrational.

You mock me for believing in heaven... what do you believe in?
Why believe anything that cannot be shown to be true?

Eating my soul?
As far as anyone can tell there is no such thing.
 
Nisus,

So you guys can bash the word of God but when a believer comes to hold it up...you say they can't talk because it's considered "Preaching"?
Effective debating usually requires supported statements if the author is to be respected. Simply and continually asserting what you believe without any support doesn’t conform to effective debate.

So otherwise we can speak, but we can't be heard, because you'll just file it under "Preaching"?
Try not to make long unsupported diatribes quoting your religious beliefs.
 
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