What do you think about this video on Islam?

[ElectricFetus]

No they were defending the Palestinians. From the Jewish terrorists, like the ones who blew up other Jews and who conducted the deir yassin massacre.

Why were they defending Palestinians, huuum?

How is a country at "peace" with another when it supports a totalitarian dictator it has helped establish?

Because those dictators (the Saudis) rule the country and dictate who they are are peace with, which by the way the majority of Saudis support the monarchy.

Can a serial killer be his own judge jury or executioner? But thats how the system operates.

I'm talking bout criticizing others, not about punishment and action.

 

[S.A.M.]

Why were they defending Palestinians, huuum? .

Because of all that egalitarianism you keep spouting about. They were seeing their neighbors massacred.

Because those dictators (the Saudis) rule the country and dictate who they are are peace with, which by the way the majority of Saudis support the monarchy.

Of course they do, now. When the Sauds were massacring people in the 1920s with the help of the British it was very different. After all, even the Americans elected Bush twice. People get used to all kinds of crap.

I'm talking bout criticizing others, not about punishment and action

A serial killer who pretends to be an angel doesn't have much credibility.


You still haven't told me your opinion of teh movie.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Because of all that egalitarianism you keep spouting about. They were seeing their neighbors massacred.

LOL! No they are doing it for two primary reasons:
1. To get rid of the Palestinians in their territories.
2. because of the massive insult to Islam the jewish state is.

Considering how some of them treat Palestinians refugees in their own territories your reasoning makes absolutely no sense.

Of course they do, now. When the Sauds were massacring people in the 1920s with the help of the British it was very different. After all, even the Americans elected Bush twice. People get used to all kinds of crap.

So then you concede that point, good, lets move along.

A serial killer who pretends to be an angel doesn't have much credibility.

who pretending to be an angel?

You still haven't told me your opinion of the movie.

My opinion is the movie is designed to do one thing only: stir up controversial discussion, this thread proves it for me.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Does not matter, most so called Christan countries are secular and do not have a recognized state religion, have separation of church and state and generally don't follow edicts out of a books of mythology and fancy as law. Unlike most Muslims countries, which have sharia law or base their laws off of the koran or worse the Hadiths. The Muslims need to secularize and literally stop following most of the koran just like how most christens stop following most of the bible.

But his video doesn't seem focused on muslims in other countries which would have lead to an even more specious argument. He's worried about muslims in secular society, Dutch society specifically. In a secular society as long as everyone follows the law we cannot tell people to 'stop following the koran'. In the States it would be a mistake to think that christians have 'stopped following' the bible because they have not. There is a separation of church and state which is why are dollar bill states in 'god we trust' and creationism is being taught in some schools.

If his motivation is to stop people from following their religion then I believe he probably failed but it is obvious that he doesn't care whether muslims follow the Koran or not. He doesnt care about muslims, their perspective, experience, the truth of their identity or anything of that nature. We know this because it isn't explored in the video. He isn't trying to enlighten anyone on anything. What he leaves us with is a carefully crafted piece of propaganda, where the message is designed to outrage those who are not muslim and ostracize those who are. He is using fear as a tool which doesn't surprise me because the whole Bush presidency used fear as a means to shape the country's attitude and point them in a certain direction. People don't think clearly when they operate out of fear, anxiety and paranoia. He plays with emotion derived from emotionally charged sensitive material to keep his viewer from objectively tackling the fact that there is no subject matter save fear. He wants you to fear muslims and treat the koran as the feared enemy of liberty and justice etc etc. Its age old propaganda and its been used before in our society to raise fears about jews, blacks, communists at one point the japanese.

 

[ElectricFetus]

But his video doesn't seem focused on muslims in other countries which would have lead to an even more specious argument. He's worried about muslims in secular society, Dutch society specifically. In a secular society as long as everyone follows the law we cannot tell people to 'stop following the koran'. In the States it would be a mistake to think that christians have 'stopped following' the bible because they have not.

The worry is not that they will follow the Koran and go to mosque, rather that they don't integrate and demand sharia law.

There is a separation of church and state which is why are dollar bill states in 'god we trust' and creationism is being taught in some schools.

There a big difference between having 'in god we trust' (which god?) on a dollar bill and sharia law, pure perfect secularism has never existed, but that does not mean an imperfect secular state is not desirable over a blatantly theocratic one.

If his motivation is to stop people from following their religion then I believe he probably failed but it is obvious that he doesn't care whether muslims follow the Koran or not. He doesnt care about muslims, their perspective, experience, the truth of their identity or anything of that nature. We know this because it isn't explored in the video. He isn't trying to enlighten anyone on anything. What he leaves us with is a carefully crafted piece of propaganda, where the message is designed to outrage those who are not muslim and ostracize those who are. He is using fear as a tool which doesn't surprise me because the whole Bush presidency used fear as a means to shape the country's attitude and point them in a certain direction. People don't think clearly when they operate out of fear, anxiety and paranoia. He plays with emotion derived from emotionally charged sensitive material to keep his viewer from objectively tackling the fact that there is no subject matter save fear. He wants you to fear muslims and treat the koran as the feared enemy of liberty and justice etc etc. Its age old propaganda and its been used before in our society to raise fears about jews, blacks, communists at one point the japanese.

Yes, but is the message true or false? If the nazis were saying "The jews get a disproportionate number of noble prizes!" in a well orchestrated video designed to anger people, is the claim (The jews get a disproportionate number of noble prizes) incorrect?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The worry is not that they will follow the Koran and go to mosque, rather that they don't integrate and demand sharia law.
There a big difference between having 'in god we trust' (which god?) on a dollar bill and sharia law, pure perfect secularism has never existed, but that does not mean an imperfect secular state is not desirable over a blatantly theocratic one.
Yes, but is the message true or false? If the nazis were saying "The jews get a disproportionate number of noble prizes!" in a well orchestrated video designed to anger people, is the claim (The jews get a disproportionate number of noble prizes) incorrect?

Well integration is something of a choice. We do not demand that an orthodox jew integrate, we do not demand that they be rid of their religious courts. Why is there a need to demand it of muslims? What of Gypsies? Maybe we should be more concerned about whether gypsies integrate? Where is the video of gypsies robbing jewelry, reading palms and selling babies in alleyways? Make sure you have them dancing in colored flowing skirts and ruffled tops with one shoulder exposed and large gold hoop earrings

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7233040.stm

I am sorry but I don't see secular society as being placed at risk here. There will be muslims who practise their religion loosely, who live and play among non-muslims and there will be those who are only comfortable in the confines of their own community. All the film does is raise anxiety among those who know nothing about those communities and are ready to think the worst.

Reality isn't made up of 'true' or 'false' its made up of complexities. His message isn't something I 'believe' so I guess its false since the representation is skewed, I mean are muslims in malaysia for example to see themselves in that footage? The Chams of cambodia wouldn't have a clue as to whom they were trying to represent nevermind the message. I don't equate terrorism with muslims anymore than I equate practising catholics with IRA. I just don't think he was trying to achieve anything positive in his work and if he was he missed the mark.


On a different note I would like to recommend a very good film 'Arranged' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ50OHibLq0&feature=channel_page


http://www.arrangedthemovie.com/


Or maybe this is the worse fear of all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9XVB_uYppE&NR=1

 

[ElectricFetus]

Well integration is something of a choice. We do not demand that an orthodox jew integrate, we do not demand that they be rid of their religious courts. Why is there a need to demand it of muslims? What of Gypsies? Maybe we should be more concerned about whether gypsies integrate? Where is the video of gypsies robbing jewelry, reading palms and selling babies in alleyways? Make sure you have them dancing in colored flowing skirts and ruffled tops with one shoulder exposed and large gold hoop earrings

The integration I was speaking of was respecting the states laws and tolerance for others. I could find sharia law acceptable if the secular courts have final authority and as long as it limited to civil disputes between muslims rather than "she must die because she was raped", "or that infidels life is not worthy of serious punishment" kind of sharia law, what ever conceding people do between them selves is none of by business and that includes agreeing on how to finalized civil disputes, but when a side says "I don't want to have my hand cut off" or "I don't want hanged slowly for being raped." that not conceding anymore, nor is that kind of punishment for those "crimes" allowed in secular societies.

I am sorry but I don't see secular society as being placed at risk here. There will be muslims who do not practise their religion loosely, who live among and play among non-muslims and there will be those who are only comfortable in the confines of their own community. All the film does is raise anxiety among those who are already alienated from those communities, people who don't know much about them etc.

And there will be Muslims who will kill their daughters for being to secular or being a apostate. When a Muslim women was raped by a Muslim man here, the Muslim community here rallied to his side demanding he not be punished for it was her fault, this is the kind of lack of integration I'm talking about: not accepting that we don't punish rape victims and that we punish the rapist.

Reality isn't made up of 'true' or 'false' its made up of complexities.

2+2=4 is mutable? Reality is not made of absolutes, no philosophy on reality is right at all times and places, including yours: there are simplistic states in reality.

His message isn't something I 'believe' so I guess its false since the representation is skewed, I mean are muslims in malaysia for example to see themselves in that footage? The Chams of cambodia wouldn't have a clue as to whom they were trying to represent nevermind the message. I don't equate terrorism with muslims anymore than I equate practising catholics with IRA. I just don't think he was trying to achieve anything positive in his work and if he was he missed the mark.

The Muslims in Malaysia are far more secular. I equate terrorism done by Muslims with Muslim fundamentalist, which represent a significant percentage of the Muslim population in some countries, of these only a handful are sick fuckish enough to these act, but the rest sympathize with them.

I have a film for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpNATfZH5KU

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The integration I was speaking of was respecting the states laws and tolerance for others. I could find sharia law acceptable if the secular courts have final authority and as long as it limited to civil disputes between muslims rather than "she must die because she was raped", "or that infidels life is not worthy of serious punishment" kind of sharia law, what ever conceding people do between them selves is none of by business and that includes agreeing on how to finalized civil disputes, but when a side says "I don't want to have my hand cut off" or "I don't want hanged slowly for being raped." that not conceding anymore, nor is that kind of punishment for those "crimes" allowed in secular societies.



And there will be Muslims who will kill their daughters for being to secular or being a apostate. When a Muslim women was raped by a Muslim man here, the Muslim community here rallied to his side demanding he not be punished for it was her fault, this is the kind of lack of integration I'm talking about: not accepting that we don't punish rape victims and that we punish the rapist.


2+2=4 is mutable? Reality is not made of absolutes, no philosophy on reality is right at all times and places, including yours: there are simplistic states in reality.



The Muslims in Malaysia are far more secular. I equate terrorism done by Muslims with Muslim fundamentalist, which represent a significant percentage of the Muslim population in some countries, of these only a handful are sick fuckish enough to these act, but the rest sympathize with them.

I have a film for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpNATfZH5KU

There is another anime called Waltz With Bashir, you may have heard of it already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWo8U5J0XeY&feature=related

We should remind ourselves that the film seems to address a threat of muslims in secular western society.

I'm sorry electric but there are muslims living in the States and Europe and some live under Sharia and it doesn't seem to be a problem. When I lived in NY and Europe I have never heard the stories of horror that you describe, bad things happen yes but I will not suppose that they are representative of an entire religious group. The truth is that there are many muslims who live and work in secular society and do not clash with the society they are living in. Your examples remind me of when they used to demonize black men and african american communities where it was thought that you would be robbed or raped at any time because 'they' were there.
Crime is crime and if someone commits a crime then they should be dealt with but to assume that because someone follows a religion that they are willing to commit a crime is nothing more than a witch hunt, profiling and a wide open window towards racism.

If you want to 'simplify' the truth to the degree that you can only deal in stereotypes by all means go ahead but I hardly find it very sophisticated.

Why are musims in malaysia more secular when they live under sharia law as well as secular law?

"The nation maintains two parallel justice systems in the country (see: Courts of Malaysia). One is the secular justice system based upon laws gazetted by Parliament. The other is sharia (syariah, Islamic law). Ostensibly Syariah Courts only have jurisdiction over persons who declare themselves to be Muslims. Consequently, this results in non-Muslims not having legal standing in Syariah Courts."

 

[ElectricFetus]

There is another anime called Waltz With Bashir, you may have heard of it already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWo8U5J0XeY&feature=related

a-n-i-m-e? let me get this straight a autobiographical animated movie by an french-iranian cartoonist, is an anime?... you make me sick!

I'm sorry electric but there are muslims living in the States and Europe and some live under Sharia and it doesn't seem to be a problem.When I lived in NY and Europe I have never heard the stories of horror that you describe, bad things happen yes

what, you live under a rock?
http://www.financialpost.com/conrad_black/story.html?id=159480
http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com/2009/04/islam-in-russia-muslim-father-orders.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52437
and that just a tip of one type of iceberg of the many icebergs of this issue!

but I will not suppose that they are representative of an entire religious group.

I never said they were.

The truth is that there are many muslims who live and work in secular society and do not clash with the society they are living in.

yeah secular ones. I know some, nice people.

Your examples remind me of when they used to demonize black men and african american communities where it was thought that you would be robbed or raped at any time because 'they' were there.

i'm not talking about all muslims, not even a majority!

Crime is crime and if someone commits a crime then they should be dealt with but to assume that because someone follows a religion that they are willing to commit a crime is nothing more than a witch hunt, profiling and a wide open window towards racism.

simple fact, most fundamentalist are more prone of criminal acts, Muslim fundamentalism more so, Muslim fundamentalism is a threat to human rights and world safety.

If you want to 'simplify' the truth to the degree that you can only deal in stereotypes by all means go ahead but I hardly find it very sophisticated.

yeah, Muslim fundamentalist are stereotypes, they don't actually want strict sharia law, oppression of women, horrific punishments, and jihad against all that they feel opposes them in a grand scheme for would domination... oh wait they do by the very nature of being Muslims fundamentalist!!! Its like saying christan evangelicals are a stereotype, Democrats are a stereotype: no they not! Its a label for people who actually think a certain way, any exception is no longer under that label so its not a stereotype!

Why are musims in malaysia more secular when they live under sharia law as well as secular law?

because their version of sharia law is far more water down then say Saudis and Iranians, they are secularizing, good for them. For example the sharia law in malaysia is at worse allowed to imposing fines for an amount not more than RM 3000, and imprisonment to not more than 6 months, no hand chopping, lynching, stoning, killing of apostates, etc, unlike saudis and iran.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

So if you are not talking about all muslims, not even a majority, and if you agree that there are decent religious muslims then you understand why the video seems perjurative of all muslims simply because it doesn't distinguish? Even the section where it states 'tear out the hatred' as if non-violent muslims somehow could have an influence on violent extremists seems damning to me. Stereotyping people at a time when they are targets of hatred and fear simply because of the way they dress, religious beliefs or where they are from is not helpful. You have not built a case as to how this video is helpful in anyway to stem hatred and violence or bridge gaps between differing peoples. One has to question the intent of the filmaker.

By the way you don't make me sick electric, I'm indifferent.

 

[ElectricFetus]

So if you are not talking about all muslims, not even a majority, and if you agree that there are decent religious muslims then you understand why the video seems perjurative of all muslims simply because it doesn't distinguish?

I'm not sure the video does not distinguish, it seems to be asking for secularization, secularized Muslims are not the subject of the video, fundamentalist Muslims are the ones worry about.

Even the section where it states 'tear out the hatred' as if non-violent muslims somehow could have an influence on violent extremists seems damning to me.

They could in fact have a influence, in most Muslims countries they so called "non-violent" Muslims have the majority they could stand up and denounce their psychotic brethren, but they don't, openly because they don't want to
die and internally because it difficult to rat out a brother of the faith.

Stereotyping people at a time when they are targets of hatred and fear simply because of the way they dress, religious beliefs or where they are from is not helpful. You have not built a case as to how this video is helpful in anyway to stem hatred and violence or bridge gaps between differing peoples.

I think its helpful, it induced this discussion.

One has to question the intent of the filmaker.

To get attention, to make money? like all filmmakers.

By the way you don't make me sick electric, I'm indifferent.

Calling something anime is never appropriate to me, accept in the case were it styling, plot and show elements are characteristic of anime.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Electric: Calling something anime is never appropriate to me, accept in the case were it styling, plot and show elements are characteristic of anime.

So for this your disgusted. Well done.

Electric: I'm not sure the video does not distinguish, it seems to be asking for secularization, secularized Muslims are not the subject of the video, fundamentalist Muslims are the ones worry about.

I can agree with that but fundamentalist muslims are not going to be moved by a video of this nature and there is little that a secular society can do to change the mind of a fundamentalist. Outside of the video expressing a certain outrage it hardly goes so far as to enlighten a secular society on the nature of extremism other than state its extreme. The only other outcome from the work is to manipulte the fears of a secular society and that can only lead to outrageous acts like turning on muslims whether they be extreme or not. I'm thinking of all the times muslim families and individuals were asked to leave an airline because of passenger fears etc.

Electric: They could in fact have a influence, in most Muslims countries they so called "non-violent" Muslims have the majority they could stand up and denounce their psychotic brethren, but they don't, openly because they don't want to
die and internally because it difficult to rat out a brother of the faith.

Well I think this has happened already. Many muslims have said basically that terrorists are not acting in their name but it becomes more and more difficult for non-violent muslims to take this stance when they themselves are coming under fire simply because of their religion or because they wear the burkah or hajib. We are alienating this portion of the muslim population and its not helpful.

 

[ElectricFetus]

So for this your disgusted. Well done.

Thank you.

I can agree with that but fundamentalist muslims are not going to be moved by a video of this nature and there is little that a secular society can do to change the mind of a fundamentalist.

Of course, despite what the video says the primary propose is to invoke controversy and attention to the artiest. It was not designed to actually convince fundamentalist Muslim to secularize, that near impossible! Look at the ones on this forum: I cannot for the life of me convince them that killing children is wrong (these being infidel children mind you).

Outside of the video expressing a certain outrage it hardly goes so far as to enlighten a secular society on the nature of extremism other than state its extreme. The only other outcome from the work is to manipulte the fears of a secular society and that can only lead to outrageous acts like turning on muslims whether they be extreme or not. I'm thinking of all the times muslim families and individuals were asked to leave an airline because of passenger fears etc.

No, things like 9/11 did that, this video has not, this video is like pissing in a sea of piss.

Well I think this has happened already. Many muslims have said basically that terrorists are not acting in their name but it becomes more and more difficult for non-violent muslims to take this stance when they themselves are coming under fire simply because of their religion or because they wear the burkah or hajib. We are alienating this portion of the muslim population and its not helpful.

Agreed, but this video is not actually harming, Europe is hating Muslims more and more because of mass immigration of them, in the US unfavorable opinion of Muslims has actually decrease over the last 5 years by ~25%.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

What makes you believe it is geared towards the 'athiest'? It doesn't make a case against religion only Islam.

Electric: No, things like 9/11 did that, this video has not, this video is like pissing in a sea of piss.

Yes 9/11 precipitated that kind of thinking so how can the video do anything else but bolster more fear and paranoia?

Electric: Agreed, but this video is not actually harming, Europe is hating Muslims more and more because of mass immigration of them, in the US unfavorable opinion of Muslims has actually decrease over the last 5 years by ~25%.

And dont you find that odd considering most muslims are simply hard working people minding their own business? I spoke to a Danish friend of mine recently and she said that although they are having problems with their muslim immigrants, mostly young gang members, she said that they were the 'few'.

 

[ElectricFetus]

What makes you believe it is geared towards the 'athiest'? It doesn't make a case against religion only Islam.

Why would I think it geared towards atheists?

Yes 9/11 precipitated that kind of thinking so how can the video do anything else but bolster more fear and paranoia?

Because its a little video, not a terrorist attack.

And dont you find that odd considering most muslims are simply hard working people minding their own business? I spoke to a Danish friend of mine recently and she said that although they are having problems with their muslim immigrants, mostly young gang members, she said that they were the 'few'.

its the ones that aren't that piss people off.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why would I think it geared towards atheists?
Because its a little video, not a terrorist attack.
its the ones that aren't that piss people off.

Yes the video doesn't deal with 'religion' per se it deals with the koran or precisely an extremitst interpretation of the koran.

Videos can either expand our knowledge of something or it can sensationalize. This chose to sensationalize and offers nothing else, it plays on emotions, on fears.

Criminals piss everyone off.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Videos can either expand our knowledge of something or it can sensationalize. This chose to sensationalize and offers nothing else, it plays on emotions, on fears.

I don't think it plays on fear, rather the responses are varied, I do agree it "sensationalized and nothing else" that the propose of the video, to be controversial for attention.

Criminals piss everyone off.

When they are immigrant criminals it opens the question of deportation and closing borders.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Illegal immigrants are always deported, many muslims are legal citizens and not criminal at all. ciminal behaviour happens regardless of religion or ethnicity.

I think the video didnt give any information that is new, nothing we haven't seen or heard before. Its biased opinion on the koran and nothing more, this of course is ok by itself but I don't find anything useful about it save spreading an unreflective bias, there isn't anything else informative about the work so if that was also the intent it failed.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I think the video didnt give any information that is new, nothing we haven't seen or heard before.

I never said it did.

Its biased opinion on the koran and nothing more, this of course is ok by itself but I don't find anything useful about it save spreading an unreflective bias, there isn't anything else informative about the work so if that was also the intent it failed.

Wait how is reading verses out of the Koran bias? I don't think being informative was an intent at all.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Because he isolates an interpretation of the koran held by extremists and not muslims at large